The stigma of female beauty in male-dominated pursuits

They do get judged, but it has the opposite effect and it depends on which person is doing the judging.

Inside the field, it is a distinct advantage. Google on "glass escalator". It's the term they use for the disproportionate speed of advancement of any man who goes into traditionally female roles like elementary education and nursing. There's a whole bunch of literature out there about this.

Outside it, they get societal discrimination from others implying they're gay, or somehow unable to get a manly job. If it involves working with children they are often accused of being a pedophile.

momgamer wrote:

Outside it, they get societal discrimination from others implying they're gay, or somehow unable to get a manly job. If it involves working with children they are often accused of being a pedophile.

In my defense I did cite HG TV.

I think HG TV is actually a pretty good example to be honest. I personally think there is an over-representation of men on the station. Male fashion designers, male interior decorators, men doing crafts that don't involve power tools.

Come to think of it....a lot of the "haute coutoure" designers are men. You'd think that women would in charge of fashion and developing new clothing for other women to wear. How is it that so many of the prevalent fashion designers are dandy fellas wearing ascots and monocles?

momgamer wrote:

Outside it, they get societal discrimination from others implying they're gay, or somehow unable to get a manly job. If it involves working with children they are often accused of being a pedophile.

True story: this is partly why I work at a bank and not in daycare, as I had for several years.

momgamer wrote:

They do get judged, but it has the opposite effect and it depends on which person is doing the judging.

Inside the field, it is a distinct advantage. Google on "glass escalator". It's the term they use for the disproportionate speed of advancement of any man who goes into traditionally female roles like elementary education and nursing. There's a whole bunch of literature out there about this.

Outside it, they get societal discrimination from others implying they're gay, or somehow unable to get a manly job. If it involves working with children they are often accused of being a pedophile.

So it sounds like a pretty common pattern of seeing an outsider and immediately assuming some kind of negative reason that they are there with the given information. If they're attractive, it's their looks. If they work with kids, maybe they're a pedophile, etc.

iaintgotnopants wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

I honestly don't follow Ms. Chobat's work at all, and hadn't even heard of her before she got the gig on ME3, but I can think of any number of other attractive women who have been stigmatized as 'getting the job because of their looks'

If I recall correctly, 'getting the job because of their looks' is true in the case of Chobot. I'm pretty sure she's the one that got the job at IGN because of a picture of her licking a PSP. If her work on podcasts is any indication, I can't imagine she got the Mass Effect job because of the strength of her voice work.

Not being a part of IGN's HR staff, is it possible that the picture brought her to their attention, but positive interviewing actually landed her the job?

Tanglebones wrote:
iaintgotnopants wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

I honestly don't follow Ms. Chobat's work at all, and hadn't even heard of her before she got the gig on ME3, but I can think of any number of other attractive women who have been stigmatized as 'getting the job because of their looks'

If I recall correctly, 'getting the job because of their looks' is true in the case of Chobot. I'm pretty sure she's the one that got the job at IGN because of a picture of her licking a PSP. If her work on podcasts is any indication, I can't imagine she got the Mass Effect job because of the strength of her voice work.

Not being a part of IGN's HR staff, is it possible that the picture brought her to their attention, but positive interviewing actually landed her the job?

If that were the case would you say she got the job because of her looks doesn't apply? Would she have gotten the job without her looks?

I don't actually know the answers to those questions but I'm not sure if it's that cut and dry.

Seth wrote:
momgamer wrote:

Outside it, they get societal discrimination from others implying they're gay, or somehow unable to get a manly job. If it involves working with children they are often accused of being a pedophile.

True story: this is partly why I work at a bank and not in daycare, as I had for several years.

This is also why I am always leery of taking my girls to the park without my wife coming along as well.

Can someone be camera friendly and otherwise qualified?

The first I'd heard of Jessica Chobot was that silly PSP picture she did, but it got her a lot of attention. I dont know if that was her start or not. I dont catch her too often, we dont even get G4 where I live. Still, out of the many folks you see standing in front of a camera talking games, she seems consistently polished and professional.

She is pretty, but I'd guess her success has more to do with the fact that she is smart, knows the hobby, interviews folks well and has good speaking skills in front of a camera. One of those folks that invests in personal equity if that is the new buzz word.

I think the twitter folks or whoever that questioned her 'right' to be where she is are ignoring that every career is a journey. A door opened and she had the right skills and determination to make something of it. Good for her that she has turned it into many varied industry opportunities over time. How many networks does she appear on, including XBOX Live?

Though I havent heard any of her voiceover work, I'd guess she did a good job with that too.

Yeah. There are probably thousands of women attempting to get a job like hers, many of whom are even more attractive; as with anything else, she did the right things in the right way and got a bit lucky.

momgamer wrote:

They do get judged, but it has the opposite effect and it depends on which person is doing the judging.

Inside the field, it is a distinct advantage. Google on "glass escalator". It's the term they use for the disproportionate speed of advancement of any man who goes into traditionally female roles like elementary education and nursing. There's a whole bunch of literature out there about this.

Outside it, they get societal discrimination from others implying they're gay, or somehow unable to get a manly job. If it involves working with children they are often accused of being a pedophile.

I work as a mental health practitioner in a residential treatment facility for juveniles. My clinical supervisor is one of the most awesome bosses I've ever met. She basically told me once that she'll never allow me to work alone in the female units because she won't risk my career in case one of the residents make an allegation against me.

To quote her, 'Steve, you're one of my best staff with a flawless record. You'd be f*cked.'

Reaper81 wrote:
momgamer wrote:

They do get judged, but it has the opposite effect and it depends on which person is doing the judging.

Inside the field, it is a distinct advantage. Google on "glass escalator". It's the term they use for the disproportionate speed of advancement of any man who goes into traditionally female roles like elementary education and nursing. There's a whole bunch of literature out there about this.

Outside it, they get societal discrimination from others implying they're gay, or somehow unable to get a manly job. If it involves working with children they are often accused of being a pedophile.

I work as a mental health practitioner in a residential treatment facility for juveniles. My clinical supervisor is one of the most awesome bosses I've ever met. She basically told me once that she'll never allow me to work alone in the female units because she won't risk my career in case one of the residents make an allegation against me.

To quote her, 'Steve, you're one of my best staff with a flawless record. You'd be f*cked.'

This was (and still is) a standing regulation when I was a grad student. Under no circumstances whatsoever were we to meet with a female student somewhere a door could be closed.

mudbunny wrote:
Reaper81 wrote:
momgamer wrote:

They do get judged, but it has the opposite effect and it depends on which person is doing the judging.

Inside the field, it is a distinct advantage. Google on "glass escalator". It's the term they use for the disproportionate speed of advancement of any man who goes into traditionally female roles like elementary education and nursing. There's a whole bunch of literature out there about this.

Outside it, they get societal discrimination from others implying they're gay, or somehow unable to get a manly job. If it involves working with children they are often accused of being a pedophile.

I work as a mental health practitioner in a residential treatment facility for juveniles. My clinical supervisor is one of the most awesome bosses I've ever met. She basically told me once that she'll never allow me to work alone in the female units because she won't risk my career in case one of the residents make an allegation against me.

To quote her, 'Steve, you're one of my best staff with a flawless record. You'd be f*cked.'

This was (and still is) a standing regulation when I was a grad student. Under no circumstances whatsoever were we to meet with a female student somewhere a door could be closed.

Yes, these were the rules when I worked in a similar sort of school.

On the topic, I'm of the same school of thought as Irongut and 4axis. She's on camera, so yeah, she's also pretty. Olivia Munn went through a similar thing--there was this rather bizarre, misogynist notion that she couldn't be hot and funny (in my opinionation, she didn't set The Daily Show aflame, but she had a schtick, and it made me laugh).

Game society isn't alone in having this problem--I've listened to acquaintances in finance or glorified loan sharking or what-have-you attribute the success of a female coworker to blow job skills, because their job "is really, really hard", despite the fact that they both morons who worked while high. When it comes to games, it just seems extra ugly because...well, Seth's comments aren't exactly unfounded.

LobsterMobster wrote:

That aside, I've heard that while attractive women sometimes make more money than plain women, they have a harder time getting people to take them seriously. People assume they rode their looks to success, and that they have nothing else to offer.

I'm going to ask an ignorant-ass question here. I've sometimes wondered if this isn't just the point where these women are coming up against economic factors that negate their looks. Would someone in that position know the difference?

kazooka wrote:
LobsterMobster wrote:

That aside, I've heard that while attractive women sometimes make more money than plain women, they have a harder time getting people to take them seriously. People assume they rode their looks to success, and that they have nothing else to offer.

I'm going to ask an ignorant-ass question here. I've sometimes wondered if this isn't just the point where these women are coming up against economic factors that negate their looks. Would someone in that position know the difference?

People are generally good at telling when they're being ignored or patronized, especially when they're confident in their ideas.

...did you guys know that dolphins have a prehensile vagina?

Hmm, Lobster, I think you're qualified as a crustacean, not a cetacean.

Lobster, have you ever heard this song?

Malor wrote:

Hmm, Lobster, I think you're qualified as a crustacean, not a cetacean.

Yeah, but, like... I had this neighbor and she... well... NSFW.

momgamer wrote:

Lobster, have you ever heard this song? ;)

Brings back some hard memories, momgamer. I don't want to talk about it.

Stele wrote:

Well my issue with the Chobot thing is the fact that she's hosting stuff for IGN or G4 or whoever, doing interviews about ME3, as a journalist... when she's in the game! Unethical, favoritism, bias, whatever you want to call it.

Conflict of interest is what it's called.

I don't visit IGN or watch G4 so I don't know who any of these people are. But I saw it pop up on Twitter initially: IGN reporter previews game she's in. Oh, I thought, that doesn't ethical at all! But subsequently, judging by Twitter, that wasn't the issue that blew up, and it was instead all about licking a PSP to get a job or something.

So I know the OP is meant to be about a broader issue, but when it comes to Chobot specifically: shouldn't the primary issue be IGN's conflict of interest?

Gravey wrote:
Stele wrote:

Well my issue with the Chobot thing is the fact that she's hosting stuff for IGN or G4 or whoever, doing interviews about ME3, as a journalist... when she's in the game! Unethical, favoritism, bias, whatever you want to call it.

Conflict of interest is what it's called.

I don't visit IGN or watch G4 so I don't know who any of these people are. But I saw it pop up on Twitter initially: IGN reporter previews game she's in. Oh, I thought, that doesn't ethical at all! But subsequently, judging by Twitter, that wasn't the issue that blew up, and it was instead all about licking a PSP to get a job or something.

So I know the OP is meant to be about a broader issue, but when it comes to Chobot specifically: shouldn't the primary issue be IGN's conflict of interest?

The problem is that you're attached to some antiquated definition of "reporter." Or rather, that the term "reporter" has been used to describe people who... aren't.

Let's face facts: commercial "games journalism" is now, by and large, regurgitation of press releases. Having people who worked on the game regurgitate said press releases is simply the next logical step - especially if those people are attractive females.

I think the market has largely voted on this one.

Previews, especially, are nothing more than elaborate PR events in which developers grant access in exchange for praise. When was the last time you saw '[AAA game] Preview: It's Gonna Suck'?

4xis.black wrote:

Previews, especially, are nothing more than elaborate PR events in which developers grant access in exchange for praise. When was the last time you saw '[AAA game] Preview: It's Gonna Suck'?

Duke Nukem Forever aka, the exception that proves the rule.

IMAGE(http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/uclick/db120205.jpg)

4xis.black wrote:

Previews, especially, are nothing more than elaborate PR events in which developers grant access in exchange for praise. When was the last time you saw '[AAA game] Preview: It's Gonna Suck'?

It's the same as any other kind of journalism: the little guys can rant about the truth because they don't have enough of an audience for it to matter (and don't get access anyway) and the big guys play ball. And, should one of the big guys build up a substantial following and a reputation for honesty and credibility, you get into the interesting situation where the developer can't afford to cut them off, because their silence is more conspicuous than their disapproval. I'd argue that Penny Arcade holds that kind of sway, for better or for worse.

WHOA WHOA WHOA

Have the spambots become self aware?

IMAGE(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/constructive.png)

Tanglebones wrote:
iaintgotnopants wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

I honestly don't follow Ms. Chobat's work at all, and hadn't even heard of her before she got the gig on ME3, but I can think of any number of other attractive women who have been stigmatized as 'getting the job because of their looks'

If I recall correctly, 'getting the job because of their looks' is true in the case of Chobot. I'm pretty sure she's the one that got the job at IGN because of a picture of her licking a PSP. If her work on podcasts is any indication, I can't imagine she got the Mass Effect job because of the strength of her voice work.

Not being a part of IGN's HR staff, is it possible that the picture brought her to their attention, but positive interviewing actually landed her the job?

Major late pass, but yes, it is possible that she interviewed well, but in reality:

- her title is 'staff writer'
- doing a search for her on IGN yields absolutely NO article results, only her IGN blog
- her work has consisted almost entirely of TV Spokesmodel work for videos, and podcasting
- she shamelessly talks about her love of both Dragon Age and Mass Effect on said podcasts

IMAGE(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1csznEK3m1r436hfo1_500.jpg)

nel e nel:

As much as I dislike Chobot's character in ME3, that comic imagery makes me feel distinctly uncomfortable. I'm sure neither you nor the comic creator meant anything by it, but it has very strong violent overtones.