On this thing called "rape culture"

That op-ed wrote:

If the media would focus more attention on the fact that the majority of the women who are sexually assaulted are intoxicated, as opposed to stating and restating how horrible the perpetrator is, then maybe young women would start to listen.

Yeah. It's not like media ever focuses on sexual assault victims' behaviour and tries to elicit sympathy for the poor young men whose lives will be ruined by these accusations assailants. *facepalm*

These articles are SO DAMN INSULTING to men.

"You need to stay well in control of yourself because the male human is a vicious, wild animal incapable of controlling his dick. "

The fact that a not insignificant portion of college men are apparently vicious, wild animals incapable of controlling their dicks make this worse.

Brings me right back to the violent dog conclusion. If certain men demand to be feared like animals, we should treat them as such.

Seth wrote:

Brings me right back to the violent dog conclusion. If certain men demand to be feared like animals, we should treat them as such.

Hear hear!

The argument this guy is making is no different than claiming that a person carrying around a wallet is just asking to get robbed, so should shoulder some of the blame.

nel e nel wrote:
Bloo Driver wrote:

And while it may sound like splitting a hair, I just wanna back sometimesdee up, here. Part of the problem of rape culture is the way in which people tend to gloss over how horrible or terrible some of the behavior is. I'm not saying anyone in this thread excused the act of underhanding, but I've seen countless times where the above happens: people minimizing it (or similar behavior) in some way by comparing it to physical violence and then inferring that it is not as bad and should be borne more nobly or politely or wtfever.

Is this really the type of semantical discussion you want to have in this thread? Do you really think that dimmer doesn't think that underhanding is NOT a violent act?

Well, no. I don't think this falls into semantics at all. As a matter of fact, if you want to read what I actually wrote where I was pointing out it's just better to be clear and wasn't actually accusing anyone...

Dimmerswitch wrote:

Sigh. It is very weird (and profoundly upsetting) to be lumped in with rape-culture apologists for being insufficiently enthusiastic about committing violence.

And here's another problem. "You wanted to go into this some, clearly you are calling me a rape apologist!" even though that was pretty clearly not the case. As we've explored in this and other threads, you can discuss orbital issues without immediate going to "stop defending rapists, you rape apologist!"

Oh man that article is pretty great -

The best way for women to prevent these assaults from happening to them is to never drink so much that they cannot control themselves or remember what happened the next day. If women quit putting themselves in situations where they appear vulnerable, it will be much less likely for men to try and take advantage of them.

At what point does a woman not look vulnerable to a rapist?

Let me try to run this campaign -

"Stop driving home from places at 2 in the morning. This is when bars close, and it's more likely drunk drivers will be on the road. If you drive at this time of night less, you will be less likely to be hit by a drunk driver. Mare sure to do YOUR PART to reduce drunk driving accidents!"

I wonder how well it'll catch on.

Dimmerswitch wrote:

Sigh. It is very weird (and profoundly upsetting) to be lumped in with rape-culture apologists for being insufficiently enthusiastic about committing violence.

i

I'm sorry. That was not my intent. You don't have to be a rape apologist to not consider sexual assault a violent act. I totally failed in an attempt to address the point that many (not you!) don't consider it to be "real" violence or a "real" crime...

Moving on.

There's always gonna be bad people (men & women) in the world, it doesn't hurt to tell everyone to be careful when around people you don't know. That's going to be different for everyone, some people are too trusting and others are too paranoid.

clover wrote:

Do most guys honestly, honestly not know this kind of sh*t goes on all the time?

Honestly, I expect that catcalls, assumptions that you (women) want us (men) at all times, and that if you don't it is because you are men-hatin' lezbos!! happens all the time.

However, that men regularly try to sexually assault you (underhanding), that I did not expect.

I don't know if that means I am sheltered, or that I just had a more optimistic outlook...

mudbunny wrote:
clover wrote:

Do most guys honestly, honestly not know this kind of sh*t goes on all the time?

Honestly, I expect that catcalls, assumptions that you (women) want us (men) at all times, and that if you don't it is because you are men-hatin' lezbos!! happens all the time.

However, that men regularly try to sexually assault you (underhanding), that I did not expect.

I don't know if that means I am sheltered, or that I just had a more optimistic outlook...

Well, I quoted the entirety of that earlier post because I didn't mean the underhanding phenomenon specifically... It's not so much any one thing that happens, but the aggregate of dudes thinking you owe them a smile, leaning into you on a crowded bus... expecting your mere presence in a crosswalk, at a bar, walking, or wherever means you are looking for a man, and call you a bitch (or worse) if you respond otherwise... assuming that the fact you went to a club means you are a willing "target", whether or not you express interest in them...

Like Jolly Bill said, it's not everywhere at every second. Plenty of dudes are cool. Plenty of bars are safe. But women are instructed, nearly from birth, to regard YOU, the unknown man, as a potential threat until proven otherwise. Because there are enough assholes out there doing whatever they want, and ruining it for the rest of you.

Women can do a certain amount of social engineering to "reduce the chance that something will happen". Be choosy about friends, where you hang out, what streets you step in after dark. But the vast majority of rapes are by acquaintances or relatives anyway, so statistically you're not making a huge impact, just making yourself feel safer.

If you do everything on the don't-get-assaulted checklist, you're paranoid. If you say f*ck it, I just want to go out with my friends and have a good time, you're asking for trouble. Like Mystic Violet said back in the day, if something happens the List will get cross-checked so you can be informed how you're to blame for the situation.

clover wrote:

Women can do a certain amount of social engineering to "reduce the chance that something will happen". Be choosy about friends, where you hang out, what streets you step in after dark.

I was groped by a couple of kids in broad daylight. And just because I know "The List" automatically pops into our heads, I was waiting to cross the street with about 20-30 other people on Flatbush Ave (one of the main thoroughfares in Brooklyn), and my 220-pound self was walking home from the gym in a baggy grey sweatsuit.

Dimmerswitch wrote:

A disappointing letter to the editor at the student paper here in town: "'Rape culture' does not exist".

A nice response from PAVE.

sometimesdee wrote:
clover wrote:

Women can do a certain amount of social engineering to "reduce the chance that something will happen". Be choosy about friends, where you hang out, what streets you step in after dark.

I was groped by a couple of kids in broad daylight. And just because I know "The List" automatically pops into our heads, I was waiting to cross the street with about 20-30 other people on Flatbush Ave (one of the main thoroughfares in Brooklyn), and my 220-pound self was walking home from the gym in a baggy grey sweatsuit.

For reals. Most of the time I was walking around back in South Florida was in chef's whites. Not even close to being a solicitous look. Not that that stopped people from hollering from their cars, the other side of the street, whatever. Every damned day. Being from the passive-aggressive west coast, it was a stunning piece of culture shock.

clover wrote:

Well, I quoted the entirety of that earlier post because I didn't mean the underhanding phenomenon specifically... It's not so much any one thing that happens, but the aggregate of dudes thinking you owe them a smile, leaning into you on a crowded bus... expecting your mere presence in a crosswalk, at a bar, walking, or wherever means you are looking for a man, and call you a bitch (or worse) if you respond otherwise... assuming that the fact you went to a club means you are a willing "target", whether or not you express interest in them...

That's very much true. One instance in particular that comes to mind was a couple of years ago. I was about 7 or 8 months pregnant with our first and sitting at a bench in front of a very popular restaurant, while hubby waited in line in a stuffy corridor for us to be seated. Along comes this man, in his 40s or 50s (so nearly twice my age, I was 27), and sits on the bench, not close up, but leaning back with his arms spread out on top of it (so his personal space expanded and kinda encroaching on mine). I was slightly uncomfortable (despite being French, I have a very American perception of my personal space and its boundaries), but that was nothing until he started clearly flirting with me (and I'm usually pretty clueless about this, so it was pretty heavy-handed). He calls me "madmoiselle" (miss) at one point and to sort of send an admittedly unsubtle message, I correct him and say "it's madame" (mrs). He then leaves in a huff calling me "madame la duchesse, madame la comtesse!", implying that I was being haughty. Simply because I wasn't responding to his advances.
I guess I'm supposed to feel flattered that people are still flirting with me even though I'm married and pregnant (happened again a couple of weeks ago), but that's not the case. It's uncomfortable and unwanted. Men always feel that we should be happy and grateful that they're paying attention to us, but here's the dirty little secret. Sometimes, we're really, really not.

clover wrote:
sometimesdee wrote:
clover wrote:

Women can do a certain amount of social engineering to "reduce the chance that something will happen". Be choosy about friends, where you hang out, what streets you step in after dark.

I was groped by a couple of kids in broad daylight. And just because I know "The List" automatically pops into our heads, I was waiting to cross the street with about 20-30 other people on Flatbush Ave (one of the main thoroughfares in Brooklyn), and my 220-pound self was walking home from the gym in a baggy grey sweatsuit.

For reals. Most of the time I was walking around back in South Florida was in chef's whites. Not even close to being a solicitous look. Not that that stopped people from hollering from their cars, the other side of the street, whatever. Every damned day. Being from the passive-aggressive west coast, it was a stunning piece of culture shock.

Man, I just don't get that. I can't even talk to women...and then those assholes are just making it worse for people like me. Granted, when I have seen behavior such as that I (usually..not always to be truthful) call them out on it. I've never seen the assaults, or I'd be in jail for assault myself. I guess as someone above said I tend to be selective in the areas and people I hang out with, but..jfc people. Grow up and realize you aren't the greatest thing ever and women aren't yours to do with as you choose.

Trashie wrote:
Dimmerswitch wrote:

A disappointing letter to the editor at the student paper here in town: "'Rape culture' does not exist".

A nice response from PAVE.

PAVE response wrote:

We noticed a misinterpretation of what “rape culture” actually is. Rape culture is the way society comes to understand rape as unavoidable. This leads people to believe that rape and sexual assault are unstoppable phenomena, and often even acceptable. Directly in contrast to this is the idea that rape happens because people are inherently evil. Rape culture is not a result of bad people, but is a societal construct that perpetuates harmful victim blaming attitudes.

This. So much this. That whole post is awesome.

sometimesdee wrote:
clover wrote:

Women can do a certain amount of social engineering to "reduce the chance that something will happen". Be choosy about friends, where you hang out, what streets you step in after dark.

I was groped by a couple of kids in broad daylight. And just because I know "The List" automatically pops into our heads, I was waiting to cross the street with about 20-30 other people on Flatbush Ave (one of the main thoroughfares in Brooklyn), and my 220-pound self was walking home from the gym in a baggy grey sweatsuit.

Living and working in Brooklyn for the past 12 years, I can attest that certain parts are gully, and that, unfortunately, this kind of sh*t doesn't surprise me too much.

Hypatian wrote:
Trashie wrote:
Dimmerswitch wrote:

A disappointing letter to the editor at the student paper here in town: "'Rape culture' does not exist".

A nice response from PAVE.

PAVE response wrote:

We noticed a misinterpretation of what “rape culture” actually is. Rape culture is the way society comes to understand rape as unavoidable. This leads people to believe that rape and sexual assault are unstoppable phenomena, and often even acceptable. Directly in contrast to this is the idea that rape happens because people are inherently evil. Rape culture is not a result of bad people, but is a societal construct that perpetuates harmful victim blaming attitudes.

This. So much this. That whole post is awesome.

I'm starting to notice that almost 100% of the arguments against rape culture existing at all follow a similar vein with the idea of feminism - someone starts with an extremely incorrect statement of what it is (either intentionally setting up the straw man or not, I can never be certain) and then goes to town on that inflated caricature. I find it unsurprising that these two concepts share a similar hurdle.

Bloo Driver wrote:

I'm starting to notice that almost 100% of the arguments against rape culture existing at all follow a similar vein with the idea of feminism - someone starts with an extremely incorrect statement of what it is (either intentionally setting up the straw man or not, I can never be certain) and then goes to town on that inflated caricature. I find it unsurprising that these two concepts share a similar hurdle.

How do you defend something that is, at its core, indefensible? Take the arguments against it, twist them to be obviously flawed, and then attack those flaws.

So people really don't see the issue with anti-rape panties.

I guess if you're not wearing anti-rape underwear, it means that you're asking for it.

Oh, and if you're not wearing a non-removable gag, I guess you're OK with someone forcing you to perform oral sex.

And how much do you want to bed that they wouldn't be available in larger sizes, because, you know, fat girls don't get raped, because it's all about sex, and fat girls aren't sexy.

(Or for men, for that matter.)

These undies could probably fill out an entire BINGO card.

Why can't we have both? Anti-rape panties and fighting for cultural change?

I get why people dislike the idea of anti-rape underwear, how it feeds into propagating rape culture. In western culture we kind of have the benefit of being to argue that we shouldn't need this, and argue that some dudes need to become better human beings. I don't disagree with anything you've said, Dee. But I can see the benefit of armorpanties in other places in the world where rape is a much bigger problem.

Using hot rich white girls as examples and models is gross, though. There's so much sexualization in the promo video that it's distracting and incredibly off-putting. Just...gross.

Yay! Chastity belts. Because they aren't weird or repressive.

We've established already that rape is about power, not about sex. So what happens when the rapist finds out he can't rip or take off those pants?

Amoebic wrote:

Why can't we have both? Anti-rape panties and fighting for cultural change?

I get why people dislike the idea of anti-rape underwear, how it feeds into propagating rape culture. In western culture we kind of have the benefit of being to argue that we shouldn't need this, and argue that some dudes need to become better human beings. I don't disagree with anything you've said, Dee. But I can see the benefit of armorpanties in other places in the world where rape is a much bigger problem.

It would be awesome if we really did have a two-pronged approach. But I'm not sure if a couple of upper-middle class women from Nyack, NY are the ones to come up with that particular prong.

dejanzie wrote:

We've established already that rape is about power, not about sex. So what happens when the rapist finds out he can't rip or take off those pants?

Yeah, that part scares me a bit. As I said, he might either go for another orifice, or... I don't even want to think of the alternative.

sometimesdee wrote:
dejanzie wrote:

We've established already that rape is about power, not about sex. So what happens when the rapist finds out he can't rip or take off those pants?

Yeah, that part scares me a bit. As I said, he might either go for another orifice, or... I don't even want to think of the alternative.

This is my issue with things like Rapex, which I've linked before. I'd rather not imagine the reaction of a person who falls foul of one.

dejanzie wrote:

So what happens when the rapist finds out he can't rip or take off those pants?

I imagine the same thing happens when a woman fights back to prevent being raped: he becomes physically violent or gives up and bails.

In a world where rape is common and rapists get away with their crimes, I understand why someone would want this kind of protection.

Edited to fix silly auto-corrects.

sometimesdee wrote:
dejanzie wrote:

We've established already that rape is about power, not about sex. So what happens when the rapist finds out he can't rip or take off those pants?

Yeah, that part scares me a bit. As I said, he might either go for another orifice, or... I don't even want to think of the alternative.

I would like to know the exact source of the statistic in their video that fighting sexual assaults does not increase violence or some such. It looked fishy and it really is the basis of the entire thing. Especially considering it appears to be aimed exclusively at the violent stranger rapist.

In reference to Roast busters, I am completely against the death penalty, but every time I see a story like that I have that moment of sheer rage where I think... man now THAT is what drone strikes should be used for. Then I calm down and realize we need to address the problem in more... um... constructive ways.

I am hoping that coverage of this particular 'club' will prompt school officials around the world to review their discipline codes, review procedures with staff, and generally make sure they would react correctly.

When Roast Busters rape in your neighborhood... who're you gonna call?

Nobody, because neither the school nor the cops want to do a damned thing.

Alternate title: The First Rule of Rape Club is... tell everyone about Rape Club.

While listening to Savage Love this morning, Dan mentioned a study that found that access to online pornography reduces incidents reported rapes.

Given everything that has been posted in this thread, what strikes me in the article is that the key word is reported. Aside from that, it kind of makes sense if you break rapists down into two categories: those who really want sex (at any cost) and those who want a power trip. I can't see how access to porn would help the latter.

Nevin73 wrote:

Aside from that, it kind of makes sense if you break rapists down into two categories: those who really want sex (at any cost) and those who want a power trip. I can't see how access to porn would help the latter.

If fantasy power trips aren't enough to satisfy the latter, why would fantasy sex satisfy the former?

Valmorian wrote:
Nevin73 wrote:

Aside from that, it kind of makes sense if you break rapists down into two categories: those who really want sex (at any cost) and those who want a power trip. I can't see how access to porn would help the latter.

If fantasy power trips aren't enough to satisfy the latter, why would fantasy sex satisfy the former?

Solution: Oculus Rift & a fleshlight