On this thing called "rape culture"

realityhack wrote:
I think a lot of the issue with the beer tag line is that people who aren't spending time thinking about culture and various influences don't have a really good idea of how seemingly small things add up to a tidal wave.

That's because a tidal wave has never been shown, let alone what materials comprise it.

Ohhhhhhhh goodie.

cheeba wrote:
realityhack wrote:
I think a lot of the issue with the beer tag line is that people who aren't spending time thinking about culture and various influences don't have a really good idea of how seemingly small things add up to a tidal wave.

That's because a tidal wave has never been shown, let alone what materials comprise it.

Not once, in 52 pages of this forum thread. Nope. Definitely not.

cheeba wrote:
Interesting reads. It should be noted the USNews article says nothing about perpetrators serving a prison sentence. That's a straw man created by Jezebel.
Not quite. The article clearly argues for courts to be used instead of internal school procedures for settling wither a sexual assault or rape occurred. If that were to actually happen only those convicted in court would be kicked out of school even if the case was not brought on technicalities etc. The Jezebel mention of the statistics is directly under a quote from the article that shows this connection.
In other words they are saying 'court conviction is too high a standard for kicking out of college' which as I understand it is true of a LOT of college infractions.

cheeba wrote:
It's also noteworthy that the 1 in 5 sexual assault numbers comes from a survey.
As compared to the other servery being discussed? It IS significant that various surveys find various numbers because it is a very hard thing to measure, and different definitions are used, but that hardly applies to only one survey.

cheeba wrote:
Clearly, more and better statistics are needed.
Absolutely... Unfortunately it's fairly hard.
cheeba wrote:
But the Jezebel article is really just a forum post like any other - complete with inane animated gif. She plays the games of "my statistics are better than yours." She cited problems with the USNews statistics while citing her own statistics and then argued that because of a lack of statistics, there's no problem of false accusations.

Jezabel wrote:
I agree with Kitchens that false rape accusations are devastating to the people affected. But there's no evidence to suggest that this is a problem so big that it demands we add an additional layer of scrutiny to women who report rapes, especially on college campuses. Just because men are sometimes falsely accused of rape doesn't mean that a significant number of rape accusations are false, or that campus rape doesn't exist. To attempt use anecdotes of false rape reporting to show that actual rape stats are wrong is offensively stupid.
I would say the burden of proof is on the person claiming false accusations are happening all over the country and constitute a serious problem. I too see only anecdotes.

cheeba wrote:
Fact of the matter is we don't have good numbers here. Rape culture is a movement based more on politics than facts.

I am so glad that problem is solved and we will never have to go back to a time when women were often told they were making up rapes, and then were hounded by angry groups upset that the rapist might actually be hurt by having committed a crime.
I sure am glad every teenager knows that if a woman tells you to pound sand and later agrees while she is falling down drunk that sleeping with her in that state is legally and morally rape. Even on this board we have seen that nobody would argue that consent should even be considered when a woman is unable to stand or form coherent sentences.
We have come so far since the days when fraternities would train their pledges to treat women as sex objects used to keep score. And now that anyone who pins a girl against the wall at a college party and forces a kiss will be yanked off and delivered to the authorities along with witness statements, we no longer need to keep telling women no to drink.
Heck I haven't heard anyone say 'she was asking for it' without being called out in um...

crap I think I had a fantasy there. Even you claim consent should be considered if someone is unable to stand.

Yeah, all this ' but what was she wearing' is totally a flash in the pan. Completely political, no factual backing behind it at all.

e: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steuben...
http://www.kansascity.com/2013/10/12...
http://www.twincities.com/localnews/...
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...
http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2...
http://cjp.ca.gov/res/docs/public_ad...
http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/10/opinio...
http://totalfratmove.com/%CE%A6kt-me...
http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/arti...
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...(13)70069-X/abstract

Your argument is the equivalent of 'la la la I can't hear you' and is offered in such bad faith it's disgusting.

SocialChameleon wrote:
Yeah, all this ' but what was she wearing' is totally a flash in the pan. Completely political, no factual backing behind it at all.

e: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steuben...
http://www.kansascity.com/2013/10/12...
http://www.twincities.com/localnews/...
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...
http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2...
http://cjp.ca.gov/res/docs/public_ad...
http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/10/opinio...
http://totalfratmove.com/%CE%A6kt-me...
http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/arti...
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...(13)70069-X/abstract

Your argument is the equivalent of 'la la la I can't hear you' and is offered in such bad faith it's disgusting.


All of which prove that rape happens, which everyone knows. None of it proves that sexy photos of women or sexually explicit jokes or dumping a woman because she wouldn't have sex with you created a culture which encouraged the rape. My argument is the equivalent of 'la la la show me some actual fricking evidence' and is offered in perfectly good faith in the hope that someone will actually have some decent evidence of a rape culture existing and that such minor things as a truck with a sexual slogan contribute to a culture which normalizes rape.

realityhack wrote:
I would say the burden of proof is on the person claiming false accusations are happening all over the country and constitute a serious problem. I too see only anecdotes.

So, as the Jezebel article is saying, because you don't have statistics on the number of false rape accusations, you don't think it's a serious problem. Do you have any actual statistics on rape culture?

cheeba wrote:
SocialChameleon wrote:
Yeah, all this ' but what was she wearing' is totally a flash in the pan. Completely political, no factual backing behind it at all.

e: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steuben...
http://www.kansascity.com/2013/10/12...
http://www.twincities.com/localnews/...
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...
http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2...
http://cjp.ca.gov/res/docs/public_ad...
http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/10/opinio...
http://totalfratmove.com/%CE%A6kt-me...
http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/arti...
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...(13)70069-X/abstract

Your argument is the equivalent of 'la la la I can't hear you' and is offered in such bad faith it's disgusting.


All of which prove that rape happens, which everyone knows. None of it proves that sexy photos of women or sexually explicit jokes or dumping a woman because she wouldn't have sex with you created a culture which encouraged the rape. My argument is the equivalent of 'la la la show me some actual fricking evidence' and is offered in perfectly good faith in the hope that someone will actually have some decent evidence of a rape culture existing and that such minor things as a truck with a sexual slogan contribute to a culture which normalizes rape.

Incorrect. They are all evidence of a culture that normalizes, excuses, and minimizes rape, because when rapes happen, they are covered up, or the victim is blamed, or excuses are made for the rapist. This is a common thread among all the links I provided, and that is what rape culture is. I find it difficult to think that you could have read this thread without realizing that.

You asked for evidence that rape culture exists, and were given it. You then chose to shift the goalposts to your own narrow personal definition of rape culture.

cheeba wrote:
SocialChameleon wrote:
...
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...(13)70069-X/abstract

...None of it proves that sexy photos of women or sexually explicit jokes or dumping a woman because she wouldn't have sex with you created a culture which encouraged the rape...

I know it isn't the US but maybe you should take a look at the summary
Jewkes et al in The Lancet wrote:
...Frequent reasons for rape were sexual entitlement...
Associated factors included... low empathy, alcohol misuse, masculinities emphasising heterosexual performance, dominance over women...

At the very VERY least that is strong peer reviewed evidence of a direct link between cultural factors and rape. Including the very first reason listed being sexual entitlement.

So can we at least start from a point of:
Culture influences rape rates AND how bad the experience is for the victim
Sexual entitlement is one reason for rape
Despite vast improvements US (at least) culture remains sexist

Then you can play devils advocate to your hearts content as to wither the US or other western countries have a culture of sexual entitlement or a culture that makes victims of rape face a harder time than the victims of other similar crimes such as simple assault.

As for this:

cheeba wrote:
So, as the Jezebel article is saying, because you don't have statistics on the number of false rape accusations, you don't think it's a serious problem.
I did not say that and I do not appreciate you putting a straw man position in my mouth.
Some statistics on false reports have been posted and the rates are much lower than the article implies. Under-reporting of rape is actually a much bigger issue.
Just as I assume every other poster here feels I think actual false allegations of rape are reprehensible and life destroying. If intentional they should be pursued to the fullest extent of the law.

One of the reasons I find conversing with you difficult is you don't ever actually make a point. You just poke at other peoples points. Essentially playing devils advocate. Unfortunately that is not at all the same as "questioning everything".

If you have some evidence this is a large scale issue bring it out and let us take a look. Otherwise why even post? Anyone can say 'you don't have enough proof' over and over. I really don't think it is a productive conversation though.

For example:

cheeba wrote:
Do you have any actual statistics on rape culture?
Sure rape culture = 7.2 with 99% confidence.
Seriously if you are going to ask for statistics why don't you try figuring out what statistics you actually want and then maybe showing us what you discovered. Your not demolishing anyones argument by making appeals for vague (at best) data.

Even "Does anyone know of a good study on the percentage of women who take precautions before meeting a man?" would be light years ahead of your crack above.
And it is a crack. Lots of statistics (good bad and uggly) have been posted in the thread or in referenced articles.

cheeba wrote:
Do you have any actual statistics on rape culture?

That's like asking do you have any statistics on latino culture.

mudbunny wrote:
cheeba wrote:
Do you have any actual statistics on rape culture?

That's like asking do you have any statistics on latino culture.


WIN!

Cheeba, move on please. I don't think we're going to see movement in any direction when it comes to your participating in this thread. You guys have had dozens of pages to hash out and establish your views and I haven't really seen the conversation evolve beyond semantics at this point.

This is not a suggestion.

realityhack wrote:
mudbunny wrote:
cheeba wrote:
Do you have any actual statistics on rape culture?

That's like asking do you have any statistics on latino culture.


WIN!

I have statistics on Latino culture.They hand out the updates quarterly at the club meetings.

In a popular ABC segment called "What Would You Do?", two actors stage a scene that should send massive alarm bells in the head of any human-being: a woman who is visibly intoxicated, being dragged away by a man who's clearly intending to rape her in his hotel room.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/69...

NathanialG wrote:

In a popular ABC segment called "What Would You Do?", two actors stage a scene that should send massive alarm bells in the head of any human-being: a woman who is visibly intoxicated, being dragged away by a man who's clearly intending to rape her in his hotel room.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/69...

"That guy just hit the mega millions."

holy crap

I just got a few min. to watch the vid. Bloo Driver has it right.

I was actually surprised at how many people did intervene. The acting was fairly over the top/blatant/loud (IMO) so that might be part of it. But I always wonder what hit the cutting room floor in those shows.

Also, did they add some kind of secret code you have to enter to dial 911?

Some of the other links on that page were interesting
http://www.policymic.com/articles/58...

Shanzeh Khurram wrote:
Incidences of sexual assault at the Great Lakes Naval Station in Illinois plummeted by 60% after just two years of experimental reforms to its rape awareness and prevention programs — instead of instructing women to avoid rape, the base encourages men to self-police by monitoring their and their friends' alcohol intake and intervening when it comes to inappropriate behavior.

I don't know how large the sample is but that sounds like a massive drop.

There's a very interesting conversation going on in the Trans* thread right now regarding the role of the penis in relationships between different groups. Currently it's focused on the disgust and horror that seems to come from a "surprise penis" - this is a trope used to much effect in comedy, but it's a very real and very damaging action because it actually does happen.

Unfortunately, there's so much more going on than just static homophobia. If that were the case, I would be sticking this in a different thread. Now, because we tend to view sex in our culture as a primarily penetrative - and often traumatic - event, the penis has come to represent a lot of that pain and trauma, *especially* among exploited or disenfranchised groups. In other cultures, one could argue perhaps that sex is a consumptive act, and the vagina is the consumer, and while I will certainly entertain that that motif exists (vagina dentata, the succubis myth) they're rare in western culture and often appropriated from other cultures anyway.

Additionally, we have entire continents where invading armies use their penis as weapons of terror and war. Even here, it's used as a weapon of intimidation and silence. All those rape threats people get for doing things like writing about video games or speaking out against abuse? What is that if not brandishing a penis as a weapon of rape?

I think that if we're going to agree that we live in a rape culture, we have to acknowledge that the penis is the ultimate symbol of that culture, and not all hatred/fear of the appendage stems from homophobia.

Haven't seen this before, but holy crap is it powerful.

"Powerful" might be an understatement. Wow.

From this Tumblr:


"I have gotten one question repeatedly from young men. These are guys who liked the book, but they are honestly confused. They ask me why Melinda was so upset about being raped.
The first dozen times I heard this, I was horrified. But I heard it over and over again. I realized that many young men are not being taught the impact that sexual assault has on a woman. They are inundated by sexual imagery in the media, and often come to the (incorrect) conclusion that having sex is not a big deal. This, no doubt, is why the number of sexual assaults is so high."
Laurie Halse Anderson, author of Speak, on the question “Have any readers ever asked questions that shocked you?”

Read that again. Read it again, and again, and again. Over and over guys have asked her why Melinda was so upset about being raped. This is a girl who went to a party with friends. She was thirteen. She had a drink, because everyone else was. And a senior held her down and raped her while she was too drunk to get away.

And guys don’t understand why she was upset.

Read that again and then come back and tell me again why I should just shut up and take a joke when a comedian blows off rape as a big deal, or women’s bodies are casually treated as commodities in media. Remind me why I shouldn’t care about the very real harm that society’s treatment of women and sexual assault does.

I just saw that video yesterday on someones facebook and I was going to post it here. Totally amazing.

Did you tell the stabber no?
Interesting take/deconstruction of rape vs. assault.

Is this good, bad, or...?

http://www.comedycentral.com/video-c...

I laughed, dunno. Or what's bad about it?

Mex wrote:
Is this good, bad, or...?

http://www.comedycentral.com/video-c...

I laughed, dunno. Or what's bad about it?

This hit a really weird note for me. There's a lot of skits or jokes or satire that make attempts to point out violence or rape or crime and do so in a way that says, "Look, isn't me pointing all this out just a bit over the top?" In those cases, the actual target of the joke is the person who is trying to be aware, lampooned as a person who is just too uptight.

In this... I dunno. It had that same tone but the content wasn't quite there. I couldn't tell if it was making fun of the people who would point out the rapes or making fun of the fact that these things went into stuff we see and cherish but no one seems to really comment or care about.

Satire is hard, yo.

"Sexual Harassment is constant in clubs and it must stop"

"Last time I went out, a group of four men blocked me from going through a door. When I asked them to move, one of them reached over, grabbed my face, forced it into a smile and told me to get over myself.

"I haven't reported harassment in ages because I became so used to bouncers laughing at me or saying it was my fault. It felt pointless to make a fuss about it."


"In clubs there's a game called 'underhanding', where a boy stands behind a girl and tries to put his fingers inside her," says Stephanie Davies-Arai, one of the campaigners behind the No More Page 3 campaign.

"At a Feminism in London workshop recently there were about 70 people in the room and when someone brought this up, all the young women knew what the word meant."

I mean what the actual f**k!? That this happens enough that there is an actual term for it is sickening.

A disappointing letter to the editor at the student paper here in town: "'Rape culture' does not exist".

We’ve all heard the term “rape culture” before and it’s time to set the record straight. The United States of America doesn’t have a culture of rape any more than it has a culture of murder. This term aggressively paints men as dangerous and as the root of evil.

I know that people are out there on the fringe of reality who are going to criticize me for what I’m about to explain — but somebody has to explain this. My hope is that you read what I am about to say, and save your judgment until you finish reading.

The first thing everybody needs to understand is that bad people exist. This is the reason for murder, rape, child abuse, domestic abuse and all sorts of crimes. It is the reality of the world. Crime is not unique to the United States, and if you put a spotlight on rape, you don’t understand the real issue.

Next let’s take a look at what people often attribute to this non-existent rape culture.

stevenmack wrote:
"Sexual Harassment is constant in clubs and it must stop"

"Last time I went out, a group of four men blocked me from going through a door. When I asked them to move, one of them reached over, grabbed my face, forced it into a smile and told me to get over myself.

"I haven't reported harassment in ages because I became so used to bouncers laughing at me or saying it was my fault. It felt pointless to make a fuss about it."


"In clubs there's a game called 'underhanding', where a boy stands behind a girl and tries to put his fingers inside her," says Stephanie Davies-Arai, one of the campaigners behind the No More Page 3 campaign.

"At a Feminism in London workshop recently there were about 70 people in the room and when someone brought this up, all the young women knew what the word meant."

I mean what the actual f**k!? That this happens enough that there is an actual term for it is sickening.

Do most guys honestly, honestly not know this kind of sh*t goes on all the time?

I honestly did not know that it was so commonplace for guys at clubs to sexually assault women. That's even more f*cked up than I expected.

clover wrote:
Do most guys honestly, honestly not know this kind of sh*t goes on all the time?

I know harassment is pretty incessant, I didn't know about underhanding, though I have never been much of a bar person (and not at all a club-goer).

I would probably put a guy through a wall if he tried that with someone I knew. (I'm not proud of that response, but crap like that makes me pretty rage-y).