On this thing called "rape culture"

Seth wrote:

What I don't get is the "it's worse elsewhere" as a defense or justification of how it is here.

...

Compassion is not finite. Concern for the status of women in Western countries in no way negates or takes away from concern for other places.

I wholeheartedly approve of this sentiment. "well, it's not as bad as..." defenses in ANY argument are a poor, poor attitude.

Kier wrote:

I think Maverick meant to say that the term "rape survivor" and that people use it shows how strong the impact of it is. I don't think he is really trying to have a conversation around weather(Spelling? I always get this one wrong) it should be someones identity. Just that it does become that for some people so it must be a very big deal.

I think the comment was more in support of how important this problem is.

Correct me if I am wrong Maverick but thats what I got out of it.

This may help with the spelling:
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/misspel...
(it's whether in this case)

It's "whether".

And that's how I read his comments. The problem is that for me, using it that way always seems to get tangled up in a lot of other people's pain. It's weird that I have a lot harder time coping with other people's pain than my own.

But I'm weird as chicken mittens, as all here know.

I think Maverick meant to say that the term "rape survivor" and that people use it shows how strong the impact of it is. I don't think he is really trying to have a conversation around weather(Spelling? I always get this one wrong) it should be someones identity. Just that it does become that for some people so it must be a very big deal.

I think the comment was more in support of how important this problem is.

Correct me if I am wrong Maverick but thats what I got out of it.

EDIT: I almost corrected the spelling but then it would make the people who replied to me look weird.

I was just thinking about this issue this afternoon and I realized something.

There are not a lot of women that post here and I think even fewer that regularly post in P&C. Yet I think we have heard mention from around 3 that they have been victimized in someway.

Thats shocking and sad as it is much higher then I would have expected.

I think I am going to be thinking about this for a long time.

Kier wrote:

I was just thinking about this issue this afternoon and I realized something.

There are not a lot of women that post here and I think even fewer that regularly post in P&C. Yet I think we have heard mention from around 3 that they have been victimized in someway.

Thats shocking and sad as it is much higher then I would have expected.

I think I am going to be thinking about this for a long time.

+1

The red pill has an unpleasant aftertaste.

momgamer wrote:

But I'm weird as chicken mittens, as all here know.

I know this isn't a very giggle-worthy thread, but that made me giggle.

MaverickDago wrote:

You're confusing identity, with identify, when someone creates a blog that opens with "rape survivor" and forms a huge part of their life around that, their identity is very much wrapped up in being a "rape survivor".

No, just the part of their identity you're aware of.

H.P. Lovesauce wrote:

+1

The red pill has an unpleasant aftertaste.

If college has taught me one thing about society, its that there are a lot of creepy and yet entitled dudes.

.

Kier wrote:

I was just thinking about this issue this afternoon and I realized something.

There are not a lot of women that post here and I think even fewer that regularly post in P&C. Yet I think we have heard mention from around 3 that they have been victimized in someway.

Thats shocking and sad as it is much higher then I would have expected.

I think I am going to be thinking about this for a long time.

You may be equally shocked and saddened to find that the same applies across all the women you know in your life, not just on GWJ. I know I am.

You are probably right. Just no one has mentioned it to me before.

If you really want to not sleep for a while, you can interpolate in the numbers for other kinds of sexual abuse. The definition of the word "rape" that comes to mind when most people discuss it is a very narrow part of the whole puzzle. I've heard an estimate characterized as being "low" of 1 in 4 females and 1 in 10 males have been through this in some fashion. It's hard to get good numbers due to people's not categorizing things the same way, and the ridiculous amount of under-reporting that goes hand in hand with this.

That leads to the sickening realization that odds are when you're standing on a crowded bus or walking through a mall, at least quarter of the girls and a tenth of the boys you see around you have been touched by this in some fasion. It's one thing to not have ever been involved, and then to maybe end up on the periphery of something like this. It's an eye-opener, for sure. But it's another thing entirely when you realize that it's happening all around you in a hundred shades of variation all the time and it often seems seems no one is particularly interested in making it truly stop. It's not numbers anymore. It's tears and bruises and blood and broken lives.

This is a large part of what I was talking about in the wolf thread when it comes to trying to deal with this fact. I think this disconnect is part of why it's so hard for others who haven't been through it to understand the explosion that happens when it ends up in the public discourse. The magnitude of the reaction seems out of scale, because they don't understand how endemic it is, the incredible impact it can have on a person, and how deeply engrained it is in people's interactions with one another.

The part about how we don't supposedly approve of this because we put them in jail when we find them in ingenuous at best. The guys that go to jail for this are such a small minority, and usually of a couple very specific types. The rest is lost in this morass we're trying to talk about here. And sending them to jail really doesn't do much anyways. The process of doing so is as bad or worse than the actual assault for those who have been through it. And the few punishments dealt out are often not a deterrent against further behavior of this type.

Do I think every guy who ever copped a feel should go to jail? No. But the difference in attitude between people both along gender and personal lines makes it very hard to see across the gap between. Everyone has different definitions of their own personal boundaries. And there are people who are flattered by that sort of thing, and there are others who are injured by it. How the heck do you tell the difference in a crowded bar? What if you're one of the flattered-type, and you do it thinking someone else would be flattered and are wrong?

And that's where you run into the muddiest of waters.

I've only "really" dated (as in for longer than a year) four women in my life. Of them, two eventually told me that had been raped or seriously sexually abused at some point in their past (and it explained some emotional trouble that both had). I strongly suspect the third had been physically abused (domestic violence) by her previous partner.

All four of these were "good girls", no one you would ever suspect anyone to have any motivation to be mean or cruel to (as in I can't imagine them provoking anyone to serious violent anger). That's not intended to justify sexual assault against anyone, it's just meant to illustrate how serious and pervasive the problem seems to be in our society.

And that's just the women I've dated. My mom was raped when she was a teenager, and roughly a third of the women I've had as good friends in my life have confided sexual assaults to me that occurred to them when they were younger.

It's horribly upsetting when you really stop and think about it.

Also, do not misunderstand what I say here. Some unscrupulous people will fudge the numbers, often in the name of federal or private grant money. This was a much bigger issue in the 90's when the feds were cutting blank checks left and right. And part of our "high" rate comes from much needed reforms, like getting sexual assault of men criminalized.

Personally, even "low" rates of assault are too many. Boys and girls need to learn socially appropriate sexual behavior. They need to learn how to get help from police and doctors, and so on.

I agree with you Gorilla on the grant-fever, but it's tempered by the knowledge that anecdotal evidence more than bears it out. Over and over and over again. And that's only the stuff people are willing to talk about.

It's a horrible chicken-and-egg thing; due to the shaming and secrecy you don't get a good grasp of the scale of the problem unless you actually treat it as a horrible problem and start stomping around with very big boots. But there are risks to that that have to be awknowledged. I also know people who were falsely accused or had some action taken horribly out of context. And what it did to their life was horrific, too.

I was listening to democracy now which had two ladies talking about the rape case on the wikileaks guy. One of them stated to avoid rape we needed to teach guys to always get permission at each stage of a sexual encounter. For example, Can I kiss you? Yes. Can I feel you up? yes. Should I put on a condom? etc. The other lady thought that was silly.

That wasn't their main point of argument just one of things that I thought was silly to fight about.

momgamer wrote:

If you really want to not sleep for a while, you can interpolate in the numbers for other kinds of sexual abuse. The definition of the word "rape" that comes to mind when most people discuss it is a very narrow part of the whole puzzle. I've heard an estimate characterized as being "low" of 1 in 4 females and 1 in 10 males have been through this in some fashion. It's hard to get good numbers due to people's not categorizing things the same way, and the ridiculous amount of under-reporting that goes hand in hand with this.

That leads to the sickening realization that odds are when you're standing on a crowded bus or walking through a mall, at least quarter of the girls and a tenth of the boys you see around you have been touched by this in some fasion. It's one thing to not have ever been involved, and then to maybe end up on the periphery of something like this. It's an eye-opener, for sure. But it's another thing entirely when you realize that it's happening all around you in a hundred shades of variation all the time and it often seems seems no one is particularly interested in making it truly stop. It's not numbers anymore. It's tears and bruises and blood and broken lives.

This is a large part of what I was talking about in the wolf thread when it comes to trying to deal with this fact. I think this disconnect is part of why it's so hard for others who haven't been through it to understand the explosion that happens when it ends up in the public discourse. The magnitude of the reaction seems out of scale, because they don't understand how endemic it is, the incredible impact it can have on a person, and how deeply engrained it is in people's interactions with one another.

The part about how we don't supposedly approve of this because we put them in jail when we find them in ingenuous at best. The guys that go to jail for this are such a small minority, and usually of a couple very specific types. The rest is lost in this morass we're trying to talk about here. And sending them to jail really doesn't do much anyways. The process of doing so is as bad or worse than the actual assault for those who have been through it. And the few punishments dealt out are often not a deterrent against further behavior of this type.

Do I think every guy who ever copped a feel should go to jail? No. But the difference in attitude between people both along gender and personal lines makes it very hard to see across the gap between. Everyone has different definitions of their own personal boundaries. And there are people who are flattered by that sort of thing, and there are others who are injured by it. How the heck do you tell the difference in a crowded bar? What if you're one of the flattered-type, and you do it thinking someone else would be flattered and are wrong?

And that's where you run into the muddiest of waters.

I've had four girlfriends that were raped and know two guys that were raped. One girl was raped at a party by her sister's boyfriend. This girl actually cheated on me a week or so after this making me doubt the story at the time. One girl was molested by her mother's boyfriend. I believe her mom is still with the guy. One guy was molested by his mom. This was told to me at an age where I didn't know what sex was. Unfortunately, I didn't know how to help him. Wish I could go back in time and do something about it.

I was actually almost assaulted when I was young, though perhaps assault is a strong word.

It was sort of a position of authority telling you to do things scenario. I had gone along for a while but thankfully stopped it before it went further. I suppose I should count my self lucky that I was confident or stubborn enough to get away despite the social pressure.

It is something I still think about fairly often. This is the first time I have ever mentioned it to anyone else.

For some reason until now I never really put my experience in the context of this larger discussion. It is really very depressing. The whole thing.

Kier, it is part of it. ((((((((((((((Kier)))))))))))))) And your experience of not even thinking it's part of it is also not uncommon. It's where we get into the whole definition problem. And people judging what is worse than others or what "counts."

You're not crazy, or wrong, and you need to do whatever (hopefully non-destructive things) you need to do to help yourself deal with that thought. Talk to us, don't talk to us, talk to someone else, or not. I tend to put on my good headphones, crank up Coltrane (try this or this) and play Bejeweled. YMMV on that, though.

Another one of my favorite Coltrane songs. This one's a little more contemplative.

Well like I said, was a fortunate. It was a definite near-miss but it was a miss.

Just getting introspective and thinking about how often I think about my almost encounter makes me feel even more for those that were not so fortunate.

Sorry - that probably came across as over-reacting. I understood what you were saying, but I've known some people who came to a realization like that and it knocked them for a real loop. I'll shut up now.

Besides, Coltrane is an all-purpose medicine. I know he's saved the life of some of my coworkers on several no-good, rotton, very bad days.

momgamer wrote:

If you really want to not sleep for a while, you can interpolate in the numbers for other kinds of sexual abuse. The definition of the word "rape" that comes to mind when most people discuss it is a very narrow part of the whole puzzle. I've heard an estimate characterized as being "low" of 1 in 4 females and 1 in 10 males have been through this in some fashion. It's hard to get good numbers due to people's not categorizing things the same way, and the ridiculous amount of under-reporting that goes hand in hand with this.

I was shocked when I found out many years ago that 'sexual assault' wasn't just a legal term for 'rape'. The definition actually includes a number of different types of abuses. That was a wake up call for me; someone who's struggled to cope with my own experiences but wasn't old enough to fully understand what had happened at the time.

I haven't mentioned it until now but I've been assaulted before and also dodged an attempted abduction/assault. An old friend of mine was assaulted by a member of her family when she was four years old. I have no doubt that some of the many females in my family may have been assaulted too.

Speaking out is about all I can do. And, like momgamer, "I have a lot harder time coping with other people's pain than my own."

It's time to admit that Momgamer has opened my eyes. I never meant any of my comments to be offensive. I guess I feel torn because I'm a guy who grew up in the South but who now lives in one of the most liberal cities in America - Seattle. I get a lot of crap for everything from not being a vegan, to being former military (we're all baby killers you know), to laughing at the Tibetan Groupon commercials during the Superbowl. Sometimes I feel overwhelmed by people taking offense at every little thing, or people who say that America is the root of all evil in the world. But I decided to dwell upon the 1 in 4 number as I was out shopping yesterday and it was unsettling to say the least.

I also had the time this morning to read more into the rape survivor's blog and why she was mad at Penny Arcade about the [email protected]#kwolves comic strip. On one hand, I think a strip like Penny Arcade needs some artistic latitude to be edgy or they can't stay relevant. On the other hand, if a joke bombs for being offensive, you need to own that. I had completely missed all of this back in Aug, so sorry for rehashing old ground.

I have to say well done everyone for debating a tough topic in a enlightening and interesting fashion. Thanks.

jdzappa wrote:

It's time to admit that Momgamer has opened my eyes. I never meant any of my comments to be offensive. I guess I feel torn because I'm a guy who grew up in the South but who now lives in one of the most liberal cities in America - Seattle. I get a lot of crap for everything from not being a vegan, to being former military (we're all baby killers you know), to laughing at the Tibetan Groupon commercials during the Superbowl. Sometimes I feel overwhelmed by people taking offense at every little thing, or people who say that America is the root of all evil in the world. But I decided to dwell upon the 1 in 4 number as I was out shopping yesterday and it was unsettling to say the least.

I also had the time this morning to read more into the rape survivor's blog and why she was mad at Penny Arcade about the [email protected]#kwolves comic strip. On one hand, I think a strip like Penny Arcade needs some artistic latitude to be edgy or they can't stay relevant. On the other hand, if a joke bombs for being offensive, you need to own that. I had completely missed all of this back in Aug, so sorry for rehashing old ground.

Seattle isn't that bad. We got Blue Moon right in the middle of yuppy town. They kill a cow to fill their Code Blue burger. Had one a couple weeks ago and now waiting for the heart attack.

jdzappa wrote:

I get a lot of crap for everything from not being a vegan, to being former military (we're all baby killers you know), to laughing at the Tibetan Groupon commercials during the Superbowl. Sometimes I feel overwhelmed by people taking offense at every little thing, or people who say that America is the root of all evil in the world.

Dude, you need to find new folk to hang out with. Contrary to popular belief, there are people here in Seattle that aren't uptight, knit-your-own-tofu, complaining hippies.

Jonman wrote:
jdzappa wrote:

I get a lot of crap for everything from not being a vegan, to being former military (we're all baby killers you know), to laughing at the Tibetan Groupon commercials during the Superbowl. Sometimes I feel overwhelmed by people taking offense at every little thing, or people who say that America is the root of all evil in the world.

Dude, you need to find new folk to hang out with. Contrary to popular belief, there are people here in Seattle that aren't uptight, knit-your-own-tofu, complaining hippies.

Hey, I totally knit my tofu by hand... I just fry it in beef tallow afterward.

But yeah, sounds like you got hijacked by some Seattle Freeze types. We're much cooler.

For real. Even here in the hippie dippiest town in NY that isn't Woodstock, I know exactly who to contact if I want "going to get dinner" to mean "drinking a case of bud light and blowing dinner's brains out".

clover wrote:
Jonman wrote:
jdzappa wrote:

I get a lot of crap for everything from not being a vegan, to being former military (we're all baby killers you know), to laughing at the Tibetan Groupon commercials during the Superbowl. Sometimes I feel overwhelmed by people taking offense at every little thing, or people who say that America is the root of all evil in the world.

Dude, you need to find new folk to hang out with. Contrary to popular belief, there are people here in Seattle that aren't uptight, knit-your-own-tofu, complaining hippies.

Hey, I totally knit my tofu by hand... I just fry it in beef tallow afterward.

But yeah, sounds like you got hijacked by some Seattle Freeze types. We're much cooler.

Would love to get together at the next Slap N Tickle, or even for an impromptu beer. There's a lot I like about Seattle, and I'm definitely into the local microbrew scene. I just have some extremely liberal co-workers who I sometimes go round and round with.