On this thing called "rape culture"

KingGorilla wrote:

So, do I have enough cred to start busting out some sweet rape gallows humor I have uttered or heard over the years?

Maybe, but you have to watch the Wanda Sykes clip first.

Another thought occurred today. Perhaps, at its core, the whole idea of 'rape culture' can be boiled down to this observation: rape is not an acceptable punishment for social deviance.

It seems like almost every instance cited involves punishing people (usually women) for not toeing the line. If she behaved like X, or wore Y clothes, she deserved to be raped/punished for it.

Malor wrote:

Another thought occurred today. Perhaps, at its core, the whole idea of 'rape culture' can be boiled down to this observation: rape is not an acceptable punishment for social deviance.

It seems like almost every instance cited involves punishing people (usually women) for not toeing the line. If she behaved like X, or wore Y clothes, she deserved to be raped/punished for it.

Who is saying things like that? In all my life I've never heard anyone utter that or anything in the same ballpark. I'm so dumbfounded that a lot of you guys have these experiences which makes me think it's generation, is it regional?

Ulairi wrote:
Malor wrote:

Another thought occurred today. Perhaps, at its core, the whole idea of 'rape culture' can be boiled down to this observation: rape is not an acceptable punishment for social deviance.

It seems like almost every instance cited involves punishing people (usually women) for not toeing the line. If she behaved like X, or wore Y clothes, she deserved to be raped/punished for it.

Who is saying things like that? In all my life I've never heard anyone utter that or anything in the same ballpark. I'm so dumbfounded that a lot of you guys have these experiences which makes me think it's generation, is it regional?

I think you just live in a different world.

Dr.Ghastly wrote:
Ulairi wrote:
Malor wrote:

Another thought occurred today. Perhaps, at its core, the whole idea of 'rape culture' can be boiled down to this observation: rape is not an acceptable punishment for social deviance.

It seems like almost every instance cited involves punishing people (usually women) for not toeing the line. If she behaved like X, or wore Y clothes, she deserved to be raped/punished for it.

Who is saying things like that? In all my life I've never heard anyone utter that or anything in the same ballpark. I'm so dumbfounded that a lot of you guys have these experiences which makes me think it's generation, is it regional?

I think you just live in a different world.

Seriously. I'm gobsmacked that you haven't ever run into this, on the internet or in real life.

Ulairi wrote:

There are whole departments in Universities focused on showing that men are bad.

Someone just needs to get laid. A good vagining will loosen him up.

Prederick wrote:
Dr.Ghastly wrote:
Ulairi wrote:
Malor wrote:

Another thought occurred today. Perhaps, at its core, the whole idea of 'rape culture' can be boiled down to this observation: rape is not an acceptable punishment for social deviance.

It seems like almost every instance cited involves punishing people (usually women) for not toeing the line. If she behaved like X, or wore Y clothes, she deserved to be raped/punished for it.

Who is saying things like that? In all my life I've never heard anyone utter that or anything in the same ballpark. I'm so dumbfounded that a lot of you guys have these experiences which makes me think it's generation, is it regional?

I think you just live in a different world.

Seriously. I'm gobsmacked that you haven't ever run into this, on the internet or in real life.

I've got to agree with Ulairi, I haven't heard anything like this in any real situation. I have heard prison-rape references, but those are typically jokes or equivalent to rot-in-hell statements regarding vicious criminals (rather than hoping for actual, real sexual assault to occur).

SpacePPoliceman wrote:
Ulairi wrote:

There are whole departments in Universities focused on showing that men are bad.

Someone just needs to get laid. A good vagining will loosen him up.

are you saying that I need to get laid?

I'm going to put this here:
http://www.farleftside.com/2011/vale...
and admit that I chuckled.
On a scale of 1 to 'I'll deliver you to hell myself' how damned am I?

if I recall, this isn't the first time where Ulairi has claimed ignorance toward the reality of what happens regarding women in Western society, so at least he's consistent. I gotta side with Ghastly on this one.

Malor wrote:

Another thought occurred today. Perhaps, at its core, the whole idea of 'rape culture' can be boiled down to this observation: rape is not an acceptable punishment for social deviance.

It seems like almost every instance cited involves punishing people (usually women) for not toeing the line. If she behaved like X, or wore Y clothes, she deserved to be raped/punished for it.

I think this is part of it, although punishment may not be quite the right word. Rape is used as a method of dominance and control. I think punishment is a part of that. I think intentional humiliation is, too, as well as theft and destruction and ego.

Malor, I did some more thinking on your idea regarding the fine line between responsibility and blame from page 1:

I just don't think I can get behind it. Logically, I understand it, but if I come from the point of view that a theory or argument must make sense in practice, then I lose faith in the wording. If a stripper who gives a lap dance to a known sex offender while on crack (to tweak Adam's example) is partially responsible if she's raped, then a women who marries a man who rapes her is also responsible, and I disagree with that conclusion. At best, the argument works in situations of violent rape where a stranger is involved, and even then it works weakly, and besides that's a minority of rapes in general. Most of them, as clover mentioned, happen from someone people know.

I know a few rape survivors. Telling them they share responsibility for what happened is as sickening as telling a child he was responsible for what the priest did to him because he went to confession, and I just can't stand by that argument.

I was talking with the g/f about this thread and its contents (as well as the other) and she reminded me of this:

http://www.takebackthenight.org/hist...

I've been reading this thread and the original Dickwolves thread and thinking about both a lot - and I'm still not sure I can articulate my thoughts very well, but here goes:

I've dealt with sexual assault twice - in both cases they were people I knew very well and trusted implicitly.

I know that neither of the assaults were my fault; I did absolutely nothing wrong.

Given these experiences, even knowing that I was not at fault for what happened, I still don't go out alone at night. I don't dress in a way that could be called provocative. I never, ever drink too much with people I don't know very well, nor do I accept drinks from strangers or leave my drink unattended. I'm not a hermit either, but I generally don't feel particularly safe walking on my own after dark.

As Clover said, "In a teeny-tiny nutshell, rape culture is a phrase used in social science to describe an environment where sexual violence (against any gender) is normalized, considered commonplace, and sometimes glorified."

I agree! I think the very fact that I worry that I might be assaulted if I walk home alone at night - regardless of what I'm wearing or how much I've had to drink - makes "rape culture" an accurate term. Sexual violence is normalized if I fear it when I leave my house after sundown. It is commonplace if I feel it necessary to carry a rape whistle or my keys between my fingers so I can jam them into an attackers eyes or throat.

I don't think for a moment that all men are evil rapists - most guys are pretty awesome people - and I don't look at every guy out after dark and wonder if he's thinking about attacking me, but I go out prepared for the possibility of meeting the one a**hole who is thinking about it - if that's not rape culture, then I sure as hell don't know what is.

I agree that rape is certainly not the only issue in our society, but it does seem to be the dirty little secret - the one that goes unreported and unpunished far more often than say cases of war, genocide, abductions, murder, robbery, etc. I would never be afraid to report a robbery, robbery isn't about power or hate, it's about me having something the robber wanted to sell for some sweet cash.

Rape? That's about power and hate against an individual, that's a violation of trust and self. As Amoebic pointed out, "...you represent something some of them want, or that you represent an opportunity for some of them to assert themselves or pleasure themselves psychologically (and sometimes physically) by using or controlling you in some way. Sometimes it's done out of anger, sure, but often it's something far deeper and more disturbed than that."

Ulairi, you said: "My problem with the idea of the "culture of rape" is that it's very euro-centric, promotes the idea of women as weak victims and has very tenuous relations to the actual problem."

I don't believe it does promote the idea of women as weak victims - I think it promotes the idea that we (or anyone really) might be a victim because rape culture makes rape seem less damaging, wide-spread and problematic than it is. It is so tangled up with shame and fear and embarrassment that most victims never report it, and if they do, we live in a world where the victim might not be seen as a victim, but as someone stupid enough to get themselves into a situation where they could be attacked.

I've heard men and women imply that a rape victim somehow was at fault. She was out late in a bad part of town. She was wearing a skimpy outfit and had been drinking. She AND her male friend/boyfriend were both drunk when the "alleged" rape happened (the old 'drunk enough to consent, but too drunk to say no' defense). She has a 'track record' for sleeping with lots of guys. And when you read the news about assaults, gang rapes at parties and domestic assaults and how few of these people are ever punished with more than just a slap on the wrist - it's impossible for me to think that it isn't "normalized, considered commonplace and sometimes glorified."

And don't even get me started on the people who film assaults and post them to YouTube - talk about glorifying rape!

I'd like to see a new culture of, "It doesn't matter what the victim was doing or wearing, or where he/she was doing it or wearing it - no means no, being passed out does not imply consent and rape is illegal and you're going to prison if you do it - and if you do it IN prison, your sentence just got a whole lot longer."

There's an analogy that may have been mentioned somewhere on these boards, but in order to illustrate how we live in a rape culture and not a "theft" or "violence" culture at large, I submit this: The "rape" of Mr. Smith:

“Mr. Smith, you were held up at gunpoint on the corner of First and Main?”
“Yes”
“Did you struggle with the robber?”
“No.”
“Why not?”
“He was armed.”
“Then you made a conscious decision to comply with his demands rather than resist?”
“Yes.”
“Did you scream? Cry out?”
“No, I was afraid.”
“I see. Have you ever been held up before?”
“No.”
“Have you ever GIVEN money away?”
“Yes, of course.”
“And you did so willingly?”
“What are you getting at?”
“Well, let’s put it like this, Mr. Smith. You’ve given money away in the past. In fact, you have quite a reputation for philanthropy. How can we be sure that you weren’t CONTRIVING to have your money taken from you by force?”
“Listen, if I wanted –“
“Never mind. What time did this holdup take place, Mr. Smith?”
“About 11:00 P.M..”
“You were out on the street at 11:00 P.M.? Doing what?”
“Just walking.”
“Just walking? You know that it’s dangerous being out on the street that late at night. Weren’t you aware that you could have been held up?”
“I hadn’t thought about it.”
“What were you wearing at the time, Mr. Smith?”
“Let’s see … a suit. Yes, a suit.”
“An EXPENSIVE suit?”
“Well – yes. I’m a successful lawyer, you know.”
“In other words, Mr. Smith, you were walking around the streets late at night in a suit that practically advertised the fact that you might be good target for some easy money, isn’t that so? I mean, if we didn’t know better, Mr. Smith, we might even think that you were ASKING for this to happen, mightn’t we?”
"Look, can't we talk about the past history of the guy who _did_ this to me?"
"I'm afraid not, Mr. Smith. I don't think you would want to violate his rights, now, would you?"

If those questions seem ridiculous to you, know that rape victims face that all the time.

Edit: Source, but it's pretty easy to find by googling the title.

There's some things I agree with in this thread, but I need to draw the line with saying that disgruntled boyfriends dissing their exes = advocating rape. I'll admit that I've been guilty of this practice, especially when an ex-girlfriend cheated on me repeatedly and then left me hanging with an expensive apartment lease. I know it wasn't the most gentlemanly of behaviors, but being mad after a bad relationship breaks up is a God given right, just like being mad at a horrible ex-boss who laid you off after sucking your soul.

I'd also say that part of the problem is women who cry wolf or who use rape accusations as a way to get back at ex-boyfriends or get attention. The Duke Lacrosse fiasco comes to mind. Those guys may have been idiots but they were lynched in the realm of public opinion for a crime they didn't commit.

I'm not saying that rape isn't one of the most horrible things you can do to someone, or that it's not a big problem. I'm just saying that for every male a-hole who thinks a girl who dresses sexxy deserves to be raped, there's an equally obnoxious woman who thinks all men are out-of-control sex fiends.

I dunno, jdzappa, that sounds like a whole lot of blame shifting and redefining of terms. I understand the desire to want to be blameless when discussing pervasive and unappealing elements of culture, but the reality is, those claims are false. Did you use the terminology on page 1 to refer to your ex? Then you perpetuated rape culture.

I don't know of anyone -- including clover, including me -- who hasn't perpetuated rape culture at some point, so don't feel alone. There's a whole thread about Palin being a steampunk whore that is perpetuating rape culture on this forum. The important part is to realize what happened, own it, and attempt to curb it.

The alternative is to pull a Penny Arcade and duck responsibility, and look what that did.

Mimble wrote:

And don't even get me started on the people who film assaults and post them to YouTube - talk about glorifying rape!

Wait, what the f*ck? Seriously? As anti-censorship as I am, that just crosses the line of any form of human decency and reasonableness.

I have to ask (out of admitted ignorance/inexperience on this overall topic), because this has been brought up by several people: How is being afraid of/aware of the possibility of rape and trying to reduce the risk thereof perpetuating rape culture? If you acknowledge that the risk of random attack comes from a relatively small number of abnormal people, it seems pretty clear that society as a whole isn't apathetic/uncaring about rape (I'm skipping the known attackers, since we haven't discussed looking for warning signs or getting away from bad situations thus far). Wearing sneakers, avoiding drinks from strangers, etc. is more akin to locking your doors at night to keep thieves out than helping make sexual assault an accepted part of society, as far as I can tell.

Farscry wrote:
Mimble wrote:

And don't even get me started on the people who film assaults and post them to YouTube - talk about glorifying rape!

Wait, what the f*ck? Seriously? As anti-censorship as I am, that just crosses the line of any form of human decency and reasonableness.

The rape I assume Mimble is talking about was photographed and posted on Facebook. The upshot to that is that in addition to one of the alleged seven assaulters being charged, two others are being charged with distributing child porn too, since the victim is 16 years old. The dates for their trials will be set soon.

Here's the worst part though. While Facebook also saw a lot of support for the victim, someone saw fit to start another Facebook group defending the perpetrators and questioning the integrity of the victim. And the girl has also had to leave school because of bullying since the rape.

How f*cking sick is that.

Gravey wrote:
Farscry wrote:
Mimble wrote:

And don't even get me started on the people who film assaults and post them to YouTube - talk about glorifying rape!

Wait, what the f*ck? Seriously? As anti-censorship as I am, that just crosses the line of any form of human decency and reasonableness.

The rape I assume Mimble is talking about was photographed and posted on Facebook. The upshot to that is that in addition to one of the alleged seven assaulters being charged, two others are being charged with distributing child porn too, since the victim is 16 years old. The dates for their trials will be set soon.

Here's the worst part though. While Facebook also saw a lot of support for the victim, someone saw fit to start another Facebook group defending the perpetrators and questioning the integrity of the victim. And the girl has also had to leave school because of bullying since the rape.

How f*cking sick is that.

That's the very one. I felt physically sick when I read about that. Despite my own experiences, I can't imagine what that girl is going through. I hope they lock those a**holes up for the rest of their lives.

Gravey wrote:
Farscry wrote:
Mimble wrote:

And don't even get me started on the people who film assaults and post them to YouTube - talk about glorifying rape!

Wait, what the f*ck? Seriously? As anti-censorship as I am, that just crosses the line of any form of human decency and reasonableness.

The rape I assume Mimble is talking about was photographed and posted on Facebook. The upshot to that is that in addition to one of the alleged seven assaulters being charged, two others are being charged with distributing child porn too, since the victim is 16 years old. The dates for their trials will be set soon.

Here's the worst part though. While Facebook also saw a lot of support for the victim, someone saw fit to start another Facebook group defending the perpetrators and questioning the integrity of the victim. And the girl has also had to leave school because of bullying since the rape.

How f*cking sick is that.

Well then. In case anyone is curious why I don't find human life to be especially valuable on the whole, see above.

jdzappa wrote:

I'm just saying that for every male a-hole who thinks a girl who dresses sexxy deserves to be raped, there's an equally obnoxious woman who thinks all men are out-of-control sex fiends.

Source?

clover wrote:
KingGorilla wrote:

So, do I have enough cred to start busting out some sweet rape gallows humor I have uttered or heard over the years?

Maybe, but you have to watch the Wanda Sykes clip first.

Police in Nappa found a woman who was sexually assaulted, beheaded, with hands and feet amputated.

To this day we do not know what she did to her husband to deserve this.

Too soon, Gorilla. Too soon.

Sadly, that's closer to a regular news story than absurd humor. No bueno.

Wow, tough room...Play me off Johnny!

Seth wrote:

I dunno, jdzappa, that sounds like a whole lot of blame shifting and redefining of terms. I understand the desire to want to be blameless when discussing pervasive and unappealing elements of culture, but the reality is, those claims are false. Did you use the terminology on page 1 to refer to your ex? Then you perpetuated rape culture.

I don't know of anyone -- including clover, including me -- who hasn't perpetuated rape culture at some point, so don't feel alone. There's a whole thread about Palin being a steampunk whore that is perpetuating rape culture on this forum. The important part is to realize what happened, own it, and attempt to curb it.

The alternative is to pull a Penny Arcade and duck responsibility, and look what that did.

I disagree with this. There is a difference between "rape culture", violence towards women and jsut being pissed at someone. If you lump everything into one category then it can diminish the meaning and there *are* instances of women doing things like he mentioned.

KingGorilla wrote:

Wow, tough room...Play me off Johnny!

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/lsv4P.png)

In my defense that joke killed at the women's crisis center.
Am I going to get booed off the stage?

Courtney Stanton's troll data analysis

She analyzed the five months of hate comments she got, and then gave an Ignite talk about it.

I thought of putting this in the PA thread, but it's more pertinent to rape culture in general.

The thing that bugs me is that, going on 20 years as an Internet user, I kind of hoped we could be beyond this. Either A, technlogy to filter would be better; or B people would have something better to do. But then again, I tend to avoid tagging services like Digg and Reddit because of this crap.

There was a point on Mike's twitter feed where you can see him stepping back, looking at the trolling he was hash tagged to and seeing what kind of filth was in his corner.