On this thing called "rape culture"

sometimesdee wrote:

About the last part - it's really the fact that the victim is often on trial that's indicative of rape culture.

How does a trial to determine culpability of an assault be indicative of the prevalence of rape culture? In most common law countries I'd assume there is a presumption of innocence at the core of criminal law systems.

Do you mean instead that it is the challenges of or difficulty in prosecuting an assault that is the issue? as in, your criticism is that the judicial system seems like the reverse onus is applied in a trial (ie the victim has to prove they did not consent rather than the defendant proving the victim consented)?

Bfgp wrote:
sometimesdee wrote:

About the last part - it's really the fact that the victim is often on trial that's indicative of rape culture.

How does a trial to determine culpability of an assault be indicative of the prevalence of rape culture? In most common law countries I'd assume there is a presumption of innocence at the core of criminal law systems.

Do you mean instead that it is the challenges of or difficulty in prosecuting an assault that is the issue? as in, your criticism is that the judicial system seems like the reverse onus is applied in a trial (ie the victim has to prove they did not consent rather than the defendant proving the victim consented)?

I don't have to prove that I didn't deserve to be assaulted. People don't ask what I was wearing and then say that because I was wearing a deep vneck I must have wanted to be assaulted. People don't look at my high school and college experience to imply that I'm a masochist begging to be assaulted.

The defacto defense against a rape allegation is to accuse the accuser of being a slut and a whore who consented by virtue of wearing that outfit, having some drinks, and allowing herself to be isolated and removes from the safer space to somewhere she knew sex was expected.

Yeah, by "on trial" the term applies to both in and out of the court. In the court, rape trials are more focused around the victim having to prove they didn't ask for it than any other crime. Store owners are sometimes asked if they took precautions to keep their store from being robbed, but that's usually immaterial and zoomed by right quick (unless you're the insurance folks). Out of the court, the victim is very certainly the one in the eye of the public, rather than the accused.

Of course, the problems and examples with the victims being on trial outside the courtroom are are numerous.

Look, we wouldn't be so focused on the alleged victims if you people weren't so intent on ruining the lives of these poor football players. They have futures you know.

Spoiler:

I'm being facetious.

Spoiler:

Or sarcastic.

Spoiler:

I'm not sure.

Sorry, perhaps I should clarify that I come from a legal background so when certain phrases are used I tend to understand them from a juridical perspective rather than the broader social usages. I also work in civil law jurisdictions but have had some exposure to the criminal law system in my career.

At least in Australia, all persons bringing suits tend to be viewed negatively by the broader masses and this phenomena is not limited to assault cases. Technically the State brings the suit on behalf of the victim in sexual assault but to the public it may be seen as the victim bringing the charges (in civil law a suit can be brought by victims for compensation but that is a different specie of legal proceedings).

Many sexual assault claims fail because the law does not accomodate special rules for establishing the crime; there is also negative perception or stigma which falls upon the victims moreso than assailants (footballers here also tend to receive leniency when they are charged with such crimes). As I said in my earlier post, I do not condone or support perpetuating a rape culture. I do query whether applying the usual rigors of criminal law results in the denial of natural justice in sexual assault crimes but for now I cannot say whether due process without special consideration for these sorts of crimes is rape culture in and of itself. Where's Gorilla, would be keen to hear his thoughts on the topic.

I think I understand, Bfgp. I was talking about how when the perp is on trial in a de jure sense, the victim is often on a de facto trial. The perp being innocent until proven guilty somehow ends up with the victim being guilty of being a lying whore until proven "innocent" (once again, in a de facto sense).

I have to assume that there's something special about rape, and that something special is how we as a culture treat it, and often allow it. Otherwise, robbery trials would look more like The Rape of Mr. Smith.

nel e nel wrote:

Stay classy, Columbia:

http://gothamist.com/2015/05/20/colu...

Early this morning, an anonymous person or persons put up posters around Columbia University—in the 116th Street subway station, outside of Tom's Restaurant, on stoplights and construction walls—emblazoned with the image of student Emma Sulkowicz and her now-iconic mattress. Since September 2014, Sulkowicz has been dragging the mattress around campus as a protest against the school's handling of her rape allegations against another student. (That student, Paul Nungesser, has since sued the university.) This morning's posters accuse Sulkowicz of making it all up, dismissing her as "Pretty Little Liar" with the caption "Emma Sulkowitz" [sic] and "RapeHoax."

Sulkowicz's site hosting her latest project was under a DoS attack last week.

Good job, you took the site down for a time, but now there's more articles out there talking about the video.

garion333 wrote:
nel e nel wrote:

Stay classy, Columbia:

http://gothamist.com/2015/05/20/colu...

Early this morning, an anonymous person or persons put up posters around Columbia University—in the 116th Street subway station, outside of Tom's Restaurant, on stoplights and construction walls—emblazoned with the image of student Emma Sulkowicz and her now-iconic mattress. Since September 2014, Sulkowicz has been dragging the mattress around campus as a protest against the school's handling of her rape allegations against another student. (That student, Paul Nungesser, has since sued the university.) This morning's posters accuse Sulkowicz of making it all up, dismissing her as "Pretty Little Liar" with the caption "Emma Sulkowitz" [sic] and "RapeHoax."

Sulkowicz's site hosting her latest project was under a DoS attack last week.

Good job, you took the site down for a time, but now there's more articles out there talking about the video.

Anyone else check this out?

So I understand the need for a control group, but the idea of having a "more likely to be raped group", especially when it turns out to be true, is gross.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/12/he...

Seems ethically shady. Also, they need to remember:

“It’s possible that potential perpetrators could encounter individuals who have received training and just move on to more vulnerable individuals.”

I appreciate that it is noted that while the education can help women fend off attacks, the long term solution is to make such a defense unnecessary. In other words: Arm the targets, but let's find a way to defuse the aggressors.

Rape culture is when I was six, and my brother punched my two front teeth out. Instead of reprimanding him, my mother said “Stefanie, what did you do to provoke him?”...

Rape culture is telling your daughters not to get raped, instead of teaching your sons how to treat all women. That sex is not a right. You are not entitled to this. The worst possible thing you can call a woman is a slut, a whore, a Female Doggo. The worst possible thing you can call a man is a Female Doggo, a p*ssy, a girl. The worst thing you can call a girl is a girl. The worst thing you can call a guy is a girl. Being a woman is the ultimate rejection, the ultimate dismissal of strength and power, the absolute insult. When I have a daughter, I will tell her that she is not an insult.

I'd read the second one on Twitter, but I hadn't seen the comic. Thanks for sharing those, RedJen, they're right on target.

IMAGE(http://41.media.tumblr.com/acf97720d2e46e37e830fc358d3962fd/tumblr_nqthxz37mI1rr5t33o1_1280.jpg)

Naturally, the dudes don't see the problem with tearing down a wall that a woman has put up because she wants it there... sigh.

Demosthenes wrote:

IMAGE(http://41.media.tumblr.com/acf97720d2e46e37e830fc358d3962fd/tumblr_nqthxz37mI1rr5t33o1_1280.jpg)

Naturally, the dudes don't see the problem with tearing down a wall that a woman has put up because she wants it there... sigh.

The real irony is that, by American moral standards, it would be perfectly rational for the woman in this picture to be standing with a gun pointed at the wall so she can apply the Castle Doctrine with extreme prejudice when the invader finally breaks through.

Also, what f*cking tool is that (and I'm not talking about the dude here)? It looks like some kind of hammer with a huge head... oh wait... ew... lol

Demosthenes wrote:

Also, what f*cking tool is that (and I'm not talking about the dude here)? It looks like some kind of hammer with a huge head... oh wait... ew... lol

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/5jdmCB7.jpg)

The Associated Press was able to compel the release of court documents from a 2005 lawsuit filed against Bill Cosby.

In one of the depositions Cosby admitted to getting Quaaludes with the intent of giving them to young women he wanted to have sex with. He also admitted to giving the woman who filed the sex-abuse lawsuit against him three half-pills of Benadryl as well as giving sedatives to "other people."

Cosby's lawyers had fought releasing the trial documents on the grounds that they would "embarrass their client."

OG_slinger wrote:

Cosby's lawyers had fought releasing the trial documents on the grounds that they would "embarrass their client."

"Embarrassing" is releasing Leonard, Part Six or Ghost Dad. This is what I like to call "damning."

Indeed. As if 40 women accusing him didn't suffice.

Absolutely heart breaking story about abuse surrounding Hollywood and The Runaways. Really, it's pretty much all about their manager Kim Fowley and what a scumbag he was.

Steve Tetsch, a guitarist who worked with him on numerous projects and considered him a close friend, says they used to drive to high schools looking for teenage girls to hit on. “Westlake was a gold mine because these girls came from wealthy families,” he recalls. “We’d all be arrested today.”

Damn right you would.

garion333 wrote:

Absolutely heart breaking story about abuse surrounding Hollywood and The Runaways. Really, it's pretty much all about their manager Kim Fowley and what a scumbag he was.

Steve Tetsch, a guitarist who worked with him on numerous projects and considered him a close friend, says they used to drive to high schools looking for teenage girls to hit on. “Westlake was a gold mine because these girls came from wealthy families,” he recalls. “We’d all be arrested today.”

Damn right you would.

They kind of touched on this in the Runaways movie with Kristen Stewart and Dakota Fanning.

Forgive my ignorance, do we yet have any society which doesn't engage in victim blaming when rape occurs or is that a global issue?

I'd say it occurs anywhere where men are considered more valuable/productive/whatever than women. Basically, any society with a history of patriarchy.

krev82 wrote:

Forgive my ignorance, do we yet have any society which doesn't engage in victim blaming when rape occurs or is that a global issue?

Not that I know of. If there is one, I'd love to know about it.

Finished Missoula by Jon Krakauer yesterday. I know I'm a bit late to that book, but it did more to hammer home how bleak, unfair, and disgusting the treatment of rape victims in that community was. And, just when I thought the book couldn't get more depressing, Krakauer wraps up by pointing out that while Missoula, Montana has been described as "the rape capital of the US", in actuality, the numbers of women assaulted and the criminally low frequency of successful prosecutions are actually fairly standard for the US. So now I'm sad, and I want to send my daughters out the door each day in a full suit of armor with a shotgun in each hand so they can defend themselves, because this stupid &$#%$ up society sure as hell won't be doing anything to defend them.

It's good to know that in a society that doesn't value it's women in equal measure, some dads want to exercise their clout to support their girl's choices and help them defend themselves when they aren't being respected.

Shared in another thread, but it should be here, too: Larry Wilmore's show on the latest Cosby news. Or, as they refrain "We haven't forgotten about you, motherf*cker!"

http://www.vulture.com/2015/07/bill-...

Bill Cosby is now asking a court for "sanctions" against Andrea Constand because she and her lawyers "are intent on reneging on what they promised — confidentiality and finality," reports the New York Daily News. Constand originally filed a civil suit against Cosby in 2005 after the Pennsylvania D.A. declined to pursue criminal charges. While they eventually settled in an undisclosed agreement, court documents obtained by the AP earlier this July contain an admission from Cosby that he had sex with women after giving them quaaludes. Cosby accuses Constand and her lawyers of helping the New York Times obtain the full deposition, thus resulting in a "colossal breach" of their confidentiality agreement. As a result, Constand may have to "disgorge some or all of the money paid to her by defendant as part of the settlement."

I just.

buh

I have no idea.