On this thing called "rape culture"

DSGamer wrote:

Another aspect of "rape culture" that really bugs me. We talk, as a society here in America, very freely about the culture of prison rape and sexual assault as if the prisoners deserve it. "Office Space" joked about that being a certain kind of prison. When the shooter in Arizona was arrested some gleefully wished a lifetime of raping on him. You hear this far too frequently. Not only does it trivialize something horrific, but it becomes almost like "the rape that's cool to talk about". We have euphemisms for it. We have jokes about it. Because, you know, we're totally sensitive to how terrible it is. Unless it happens to people that deserve to be raped. Then it's A-OK.

That's always bothered me. It definitely fits the bill of "cruel and unusual punishment". It's no way to run a rehabilitative prison system. Or even a punitive prison system where you hope prisoners don't exit worse than they entered the penal system.

As an outsider, this culture of rape in american prisons is very weird. Not that rape in jail doesn't happen all around the world, but sometimes I read comments about some minor league criminal going to jail, and people hoping that he's raped and etc.

Like going to jail isn't enough punishment, and they believe rape should be codified in a law, it's weird. Specially because a lot of the time it comes from very liberal or otherwise peaceful people. "Oh no he stole a bag from a granny! Let a THOUSAND BLACK MEN RAPE HIM FOREVER"

clover wrote:
LobsterMobster wrote:

I know that we've had Goodjers who have honestly stated that they consider female sexuality to be a weapon, and that not only is a low-cut blouse an invitation, it's a threat: "give me what I want because I have these."

What's she going to do... smother you?

Some women with an appearance society values highly can be jerks and take advantage of men who are distracted by women's bodies, just like guys with an appearance society values highly can distract certain women by taking off their shirts and flexing.

But unless the woman in question is grabbing a guy's face and smushing it into her cleavage, it's not a weapon any more than a bodybuilder's "guns" are from afar. Boundary violation is the thin line of violence.

Boundaries, and whose responsibility it is to enforce boundaries, is where the arguments and the interesting conversations lie.

Yes, I'd say it's on par with distracting a woman with muscles. The threat would be, "I can see that this distracts you and I can take advantage of that," or worse, "if I cry sexual harassment, it's your word against mine." So no, no cleavage suffocation, but not all threats are threats of violence.

That said, I think I'm done defending that side of the debate as it's quite far from my own and I'm getting a little uncomfortable in those particular shoes. It seems clear to me that even if a woman does attempt to manipulate people with her sexuality - which is shown through words and actions and NOT implied in ANY choice of wardrobe - she still never deserves to be abused or raped.

DSGamer wrote:

Another aspect of "rape culture" that really bugs me. We talk, as a society here in America, very freely about the culture of prison rape and sexual assault as if the prisoners deserve it. "Office Space" joked about that being a certain kind of prison. When the shooter in Arizona was arrested some gleefully wished a lifetime of raping on him. You hear this far too frequently. Not only does it trivialize something horrific, but it becomes almost like "the rape that's cool to talk about". We have euphemisms for it. We have jokes about it. Because, you know, we're totally sensitive to how terrible it is. Unless it happens to people that deserve to be raped. Then it's A-OK.

That's always bothered me. It definitely fits the bill of "cruel and unusual punishment". It's no way to run a rehabilitative prison system. Or even a punitive prison system where you hope prisoners don't exit worse than they entered the penal system.

Not to mention the non-lifers who get AIDS from being raped in prison and then coming out and spreading it into the general populace.

Mex wrote:

As an outsider, this culture of rape in american prisons is very weird. Not that rape in jail doesn't happen all around the world, but sometimes I read comments about some minor league criminal going to jail, and people hoping that he's raped and etc.

Like going to jail isn't enough punishment, and they believe rape should be codified in a law, it's weird. Specially because a lot of the time it comes from very liberal or otherwise peaceful people. "Oh no he stole a bag from a granny! Let a THOUSAND BLACK MEN RAPE HIM FOREVER"

I will sometimes watch prison shows on NatGeo. They profiled an Australian prison once. They interviewed an American who had also spent time in American jails and the guy said that he would never want to go to jail in the USA again, that Austrialian prisons treat their prisoners with decency unlike American prisons. There is no doubt in my mind that Americans are a punitive people.

I saw this and thought of this thread: Fox blames videogames

Besides the obvious 'lol fox news', I think there's some points in there about how seriously or not you take certain issues, and attributing blame to the right places, whether or not it's videogames.

Farscry wrote:

Rape is, IMO, a crime of hate. Now, mind you, I'm not getting into the concept of a legally defined "hate crime" here. I'm talking philosophically. Rape and violence are actions rooted in hate, regardless of how we may want to pretty them up in other terms. Rape is a violent act, though they are often defined separately.

From the little I've read, rape tends not to be a crime of hate, it's a crime of power. The reason that many rapists rape is for the thrill of holding that power over another, not because of misogynist hatred.

This thread has prompted a lot of self reflection for me. I ask my self am I, as a geek and gamer misogynist? I really hope not. Though I have to admit the existence of rape culture strikes me as absurd.

Though that said I am a man with no sisters or close female friends. I have absolutely NO context for what it is like to be a woman. I wish I did.

So on to Rape Culture:

This might sound more harsh then I intend but what is so special about rape?

By the definition provided here of rape culture, namely a culture where rape is normalized or considered expected/common it would seem that we have lots of cultures.

People have touched on violence already so I won't go further into it but I guess that has not been resolved in my mind.

What about Theft culture? Or Embarrassment Culture? Death Culture? Insult Culture?

It's obvious that with the exception of death everything else is trivial compared to rape. Is that the difference?

Or is there no difference. Do we have those cultures too it's just that because they are so minor it's not worth having a conversation about them? Meaning they are just not a big enough problem to warrant this level of discussion?

Maybe my initial hostility to the idea of rape culture is that I find it repellent and don't want to believe I live in one.

All that said I am taking for granted that it exists in some way. A lot of smart well meaning people who have thought about it for longer then I have seem to have come to some consensus on it's existence. So I won't/can't discount it.

Kier wrote:

This thread has prompted a lot of self reflection for me. I ask my self am I, as a geek and gamer misogynist? I really hope not. Though I have to admit the existence of rape culture strikes me as absurd.

Though that said I am a man with no sisters or close female friends. I have absolutely NO context for what it is like to be a woman. I wish I did.

So on to Rape Culture:

This might sound more harsh then I intend but what is so special about rape?

This might sound more harsh than I intend, but if you don't know what's so "special" about rape, then I don't know if anyone can explain it to you. Men don't generally have to worry about rape. That alone is sickening. Yet if you ever hear about male rape it's often described as the worst side this side of death that can happen to you. So I think you just don't understand the gravity of being violated in this manner. You should consider looking into it.

I think you don't understand how traumatizing and dehumanizing rape can be if you're opening with "what's so special about rape?"

I don't think you need to be a woman or know women to understand rape. You just need to be empathetic. Just imagine living in a world where most people are bigger, stronger, and safer than you, and it's always been that way. Imagine that you represent something some of them want, or that you represent an opportunity for some of them to assert themselves or pleasure themselves psychologically (and sometimes physically) by using or controlling you in some way. Sometimes it's done out of anger, sure, but often it's something far deeper and more disturbed than that.

Like some murders, when it's not done out of rage, it's intentionally dehumanizing the victim. It's putting them below the self and at your mercy. It's about power, and if you can't understand how and why these things separate rape from other minor criminal infractions, I'm genuinely at a loss for how to help you.

I may be reading too much into this. But I think perhaps he more means, why is rape a hot button, when murder, genocide, etc. are fair game(not a pun). In a given year there will be 2 times as many armed robberies in the US as sexual assaults. But I seem to recall performing a lot of strong arm robberies in my life. There are also tens of thousands of parents who lose children through run aways, abductions, accidental deaths. What of the pope's words on how sickening it is for Videogames to glorify murder, war?

KingGorilla wrote:

I may be reading too much into this. But I think perhaps he more means, why is rape a hot button, when murder, genocide, etc. are fair game(not a pun). In a given year there will be 2 times as many armed robberies in the US as sexual assaults. But I seem to recall performing a lot of strong arm robberies in my life. There are also tens of thousands of parents who lose children through run aways, abductions, accidental deaths. What of the pope's words on how sickening it is for Videogames to glorify murder, war?

There are whole departments in Universities focused on showing that men are bad.

Ulairi wrote:
KingGorilla wrote:

I may be reading too much into this. But I think perhaps he more means, why is rape a hot button, when murder, genocide, etc. are fair game(not a pun). In a given year there will be 2 times as many armed robberies in the US as sexual assaults. But I seem to recall performing a lot of strong arm robberies in my life. There are also tens of thousands of parents who lose children through run aways, abductions, accidental deaths. What of the pope's words on how sickening it is for Videogames to glorify murder, war?

There are whole departments in Universities focused on showing that men are bad.

The Athletic Department at Duke and Florida State?

Ulairi wrote:
KingGorilla wrote:

I may be reading too much into this. But I think perhaps he more means, why is rape a hot button, when murder, genocide, etc. are fair game(not a pun). In a given year there will be 2 times as many armed robberies in the US as sexual assaults. But I seem to recall performing a lot of strong arm robberies in my life. There are also tens of thousands of parents who lose children through run aways, abductions, accidental deaths. What of the pope's words on how sickening it is for Videogames to glorify murder, war?

There are whole departments in Universities focused on showing that men are bad.

Really?

I mean, just... really?

The reason there are whole departments dedicated to women' studies, even if you consider it an overreaction, is because it's an attempt to educate and balance out historic trends. We still live in a world in which a teenage girl can be raped and then stoned to death for being "unclean". We still live in a world where baby girls can be killed at birth because they're worth less than males. You don't think it's fair for women to talk about the history of women's rights, why we are where we are and how to fix it?

DSGamer wrote:
Ulairi wrote:
KingGorilla wrote:

I may be reading too much into this. But I think perhaps he more means, why is rape a hot button, when murder, genocide, etc. are fair game(not a pun). In a given year there will be 2 times as many armed robberies in the US as sexual assaults. But I seem to recall performing a lot of strong arm robberies in my life. There are also tens of thousands of parents who lose children through run aways, abductions, accidental deaths. What of the pope's words on how sickening it is for Videogames to glorify murder, war?

There are whole departments in Universities focused on showing that men are bad.

Really?

I mean, just... really?

The reason there are whole departments dedicated to women' studies, even if you consider it an overreaction, is because it's an attempt to educate and balance out historic trends. We still live in a world in which a teenage girl can be raped and then stoned to death for being "unclean". We still live in a world where baby girls can be killed at birth because they're worth less than males. You don't think it's fair for women to talk about the history of women's rights, why we are where we are and how to fix it?

I don't believe that's the goal of those courses at all. At least not in the entry level. I think far too often bad professors use these courses to push a political/social agenda that perpetuates that women are victims and men are inherently bad. I think the studying of the history of the women's rights movement is very valid. My two courses in women's studies were very anti-male.

Ulari, I do not want to make this personal. And while I am sure there is not a shortage of man hating faminazis in women's studies, I doubt that is reflexive of the whole and certainly not of my own experience. Substitute women for African American and men for Whites, are you appalled?

Ulairi wrote:

I don't believe that's the goal of those courses at all. At least not in the entry level. I think far too often bad professors use these courses to push a political/social agenda that perpetuates that women are victims and men are inherently bad. I think the studying of the history of the women's rights movement is very valid. My two courses in women's studies were very anti-male.

I've had some really terrible calculus professors who should not have been teaching, but that doesn't mean basic college mathematics is a waste of society's time and resources, or that it doesn't exist.

KingGorilla wrote:

Ulari, I do not want to make this personal. And while I am sure there is not a shortage of man hating faminazis in women's studies, I doubt that is reflexive of the whole and certainly not of my own experience. Substitute women for African American and men for Whites, are you appalled?

I am talking specifically about the idea of rape culture. I think studying the women right's movement, how women are treated throughout the world, sex trade, etc etc are very valid areas. My problem with the idea of the "culture of rape" is that it's very euro-centric, promotes the idea of women as weak victims and has very tenuous relations to the actual problem.

My above post, I guess was obtuse, was that women are able to base their beliefs on their own experiences, like Clover mentioning how she behaves now based on her past experiences. Which is fine and I completely understand why she has those beliefs. But, the world is too big for us to think that like on the abstract level. I had to take two women's studies classes and felt like the professor (same prof) was treating men as vicious predators and the problem for the worlds ills. i don't base the whole movement/field of study is reflective of my individual experience. i ask for the same consideration when it comes to a "culture of rape" that's my problem. i think when a football star sexually assaults a girl and isn't prosecuted has nothing to do with a culture of rape or that we treat rape as ok but has to do with class and that the rich, powerful, famous are able to skirt laws that regular individuals cannot.

I do agree with you hyperbole can do as much damage as misinformation(like the aforementioned claim of inflated statistics). A constant source of mockery among professionals are the per minute statistics.

But there are genuine, alarming statistics about sex in the US. The number of men and women in colleges binge drinking and having sex with people they would never have sex with while sober. That is not exclusively in the purview of rape culture but also in how we encourage binge drinking, "sowing wild oats" in college. The fact that more than half of sexual assault victims are unwilling or afraid to report is horrid. To see men, women, children dismissed as looking for a payday by suing the Boyscouts or the Catholic Church is deplorable. The idea that giving RU 486 to rape victims as standard procedure is still controversial appalls me.

Ulairi wrote:

I am talking specifically about the idea of rape culture.

I think it's interesting that you seem to think that rape is a class problem and not a gender problem. Are you of the opinion that only the rich rape, and when they rape, they only rape the poor?

Denying that Western civilizations are patriarchal or heterocentric or favor white people doesn't make those facts any less true.

Seth wrote:
Ulairi wrote:

I am talking specifically about the idea of rape culture.

I think it's interesting that you seem to think that rape is a class problem and not a gender problem. Are you of the opinion that only the rich rape, and when they rape, they only rape the poor?

Denying that Western civilizations are patriarchal or heterocentric or favor white people doesn't make those facts any less true.

I didn't say anything like that at all.

It is not a gender or genetic sex problem either Seth. You can go back thousands of years and see rape of men or women used as power plays. Look into the Bible, threatening to rape the angels of the Lord in Lott's house but it is about asserting the power of the tribe's men over the angels. We then get to Judeo Christian gender inequality as Lott offers up his daughters instead(f*cked up no?).

There is the incredibly nutty sexual relationship between teachers and students among the Greeks. An Older man may lay with a boy and the result is the passing of wisdom and knowledge.

Ulairi wrote:

I didn't say anything like that at all.

I disagree. As Hypatian would say, "I interpreted your statement below as a denial of rape culture in favor of a class based explanation."

i think when a football star sexually assaults a girl and isn't prosecuted has nothing to do with a culture of rape or that we treat rape as ok but has to do with class and that the rich, powerful, famous are able to skirt laws that regular individuals cannot.

I'm willing to listen to your re explanation.

KingGorilla wrote:

I may be reading too much into this. But I think perhaps he more means, why is rape a hot button, when murder, genocide, etc. are fair game(not a pun). In a given year there will be 2 times as many armed robberies in the US as sexual assaults. But I seem to recall performing a lot of strong arm robberies in my life. There are also tens of thousands of parents who lose children through run aways, abductions, accidental deaths. What of the pope's words on how sickening it is for Videogames to glorify murder, war?

Thanks for stating it basically better then I could.

To both DSGamer and Ameobic I apologize if I gave you the impression I was trivializing or minimizing the impact of rape.

I guess what I wanted to know was why is there talk of rape culture but not robbery culture or something like that.

I think I know know in part from what people have said and also after thinking about it for a while.

I think it is partly the intensity of the crime and partly the way it intersects gender issues and the way that they are analyzed and thought about.

I think there is a robbery culture, I just don't think it means as much as a pile of peanuts compared with the problem of rape, and thats why no one talks about it.

Seth wrote:
Ulairi wrote:

I didn't say anything like that at all.

I disagree. As Hypatian would say, "I interpreted your statement below as a denial of rape culture in favor of a class based explanation."

i think when a football star sexually assaults a girl and isn't prosecuted has nothing to do with a culture of rape or that we treat rape as ok but has to do with class and that the rich, powerful, famous are able to skirt laws that regular individuals cannot.

I'm willing to listen to your re explanation.

Per the tenants of what rape culture is posted by Clover. The rich and the powerful are often able to escape prosecution based on those two traits. Again you posted this:

I think it's interesting that you seem to think that rape is a class problem and not a gender problem. Are you of the opinion that only the rich rape, and when they rape, they only rape the poor?
Denying that Western civilizations are patriarchal or heterocentric or favor white people doesn't make those facts any less true

Which has nothing to do with what i posted.

KingGorilla wrote:

It is not a gender or genetic sex problem either Seth. You can go back thousands of years and see rape of men or women used as power plays. Look into the Bible, threatening to rape the angels of the Lord in Lott's house but it is about asserting the power of the tribe's men over the angels. We then get to Judeo Christian gender inequality as Lott offers up his daughters instead(f*cked up no?).

There is the incredibly nutty sexual relationship between teachers and students among the Greeks. An Older man may lay with a boy and the result is the passing of wisdom and knowledge.

On the one hand, you have a point. Rape has been used as a tool for the subjugation of others, and ignoring or denying that men are also the victims of rape is just as bad as denying that women are the victims of rape.

But one cannot approach this without realizing that this is a crime that overwhelmingly affects women and children. Doing so is dishonest. I would say it's akin to point out that white people suffer from racism in America too -- I'm sure it's true, but when we're not dealing with anecdotes or specifics, one cannot equate racism faced by whites with racism faced by minorities.

Clover said the following:

In a teeny-tiny nutshell, rape culture is a phrase used in social science to describe an environment where sexual violence (against any gender) is normalized, considered commonplace, and sometimes glorified.

Nothing to do with class warfare, which is exactly what you posted about.

That is certainly true Seth. The area of our laws and society is replete with inequities and double standards. Male teacher sleeps with his 13 year old female student-rape. Female teacher sleeps with her 13 year old male student-attaboy. This is changing, but many states still have a presumed male aggressor either as a statute or in practice. So if two high school or college aged people get drunk and high and sleep together, the male can be guilty of rape. Up until the 1980's men could not be raped, it was defined as penis to vagina sexual contact by force just about everywhere. Men could not rape men, women could not molest men in the eyes of the law.

Also, as for Ulari's "class warfare" I think he is more pointing to concrete examples like Duke, Kobe Bryant, Roethlisberger, where we or the media turns the scrutiny on the alleged rape victim. I had to put my own mother "in her place" recently when she matter of factly stated that she thinks most of the people laying claims of priest abuse are just looking for a quick pay day.

Seth wrote:

Clover said the following:

In a teeny-tiny nutshell, rape culture is a phrase used in social science to describe an environment where sexual violence (against any gender) is normalized, considered commonplace, and sometimes glorified.

Nothing to do with class warfare, which is exactly what you posted about.

Again, I do not believe that rape is normalized, glorified or considered common place within any class. However, if the rich or powerful commit any crime they are much more likely not to be prosecuted, or have a different outcome than any other social strata. You stated that I said that only the rich rape or if they rape only they rape the poor. I said nothing like that at all.

KingGorilla wrote:

...many states still have a presumed male aggressor either as a statute or in practice. So if two high school or college aged people get drunk and high and sleep together, the male can be guilty of rape. Up until the 1980's men could not be raped, it was defined as penis to vagina sexual contact by force just about everywhere. Men could not rape men, women could not molest men in the eyes of the law.

Some of these are the vestigial remains of women being considered property, and the idea that rape was a form of theft.

People still compare rape to theft, but we've "progressed" to talking about stealing from the woman, as opposed to her husband or father.

So, do I have enough cred to start busting out some sweet rape gallows humor I have uttered or heard over the years?