Penny Arcade / PAX gender controversy catch all.

Tanglebones wrote:

How do you feel about the racist aspects of the original panel description?

If you're referring to the line that reads "...and involve any antagonist race other than Anglo-saxons and you're a racist." I don't see anything inherently wrong about it. It's a little off base, but then I also remember the reaction to Resident Evil 5's early trailers. I don't know anything else about RE5, I don't care for RE games in general. The fact that it was so poorly received from the word "go" lends this statement creedance.

I don't want to derail the topic. I misunderstand the purpose of this topic. I thought it was more general and not specifically about that silly panel and Mike being a jerk (my opinion). I'm deleting my posts so it's not derailed. Sorry all!

Ulairi wrote:

This could be from me being raised in the bay area but what is football culture? Are you talking more about things like what was shown on Friday Night Lights and that sort of thing? I always considered that more of a regional thing and not specifically a football thing. I played high school football, I love watching football, but I don't know what the football culture is. Do you mean fandom? I believe there is game fandom and football fandom but is that a culture? I never thought of it that way.

Actually yeah, you're pretty much nailing it there. I grew up in rural Louisiana during my middle- and high-school years, and yes, football culture was very much a real thing there. It's also a real thing here in Iowa with the college football having a distinct subculture amongst the populace.

I think you're looking at gaming culture from the art-concept of "cultured" rather than with the anthropological concept of cultures and subcultures. "Gaming culture" is a distinct sub-culture of the modern media and social media cultures.

I don't want to derail the topic. I misunderstand the purpose of this topic. I thought it was more general and not specifically about that silly panel and Mike being a jerk (my opinion). I'm deleting my posts so it's not derailed. Sorry all!

Farscry wrote:

I think you're looking at gaming culture from the art-concept of "cultured" rather than with the anthropological concept of cultures and subcultures. "Gaming culture" is a distinct sub-culture of the modern media and social media cultures.

Was going to say this but as mentioned this should possibly be broken off in to another discussion/thread

I don't want to derail the topic. I misunderstand the purpose of this topic. I thought it was more general and not specifically about that silly panel and Mike being a jerk (my opinion). I'm deleting my posts so it's not derailed. Sorry all!

I don't want to derail the topic. I misunderstand the purpose of this topic. I thought it was more general and not specifically about that silly panel and Mike being a jerk (my opinion). I'm deleting my posts so it's not derailed. Sorry all!

Can I ask a completely serious and honest question? I'm not extremely well versed in the intricacies of the terminology.

If you are born with a penis or a vagina, what does that make you? What is the correct term?

obirano wrote:

Can I ask a completely serious and honest question? I'm not extremely well versed in the intricacies of the terminology.

If you are born with a penis or a vagina, what does that make you? What is the correct term?

Human

Edit: snark aside, I think what you're looking for is a definition of terms -

If you're born with a penis, and identify as male, you're cismale
If you're born with a penis, and identify as female, you're transfemale
If you're born with a vagina and identify as female, you're cisfemale
If you're born with a vagina and identify as male, you're transmale
If you're born with something in between, or both, you're intersexed

Tanglebones wrote:

Helpful things.

That's actually super helpful. Thanks for the unambiguous explanation Tanglebones.

Zudz wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

Helpful things.

That's actually super helpful. Thanks for the unambiguous explanation Tanglebones.

Thanks, even given the initial snark.

Fullbright games cancels their appearance at PAX because of this.

http://thefullbrightcompany.com/2013...

Edwin wrote:

Fullbright games cancels their appearance at PAX because of this.

http://thefullbrightcompany.com/2013...

Hot scoops! It makes me really happy to see a dev, no matter who, take a principled stand like that. Good on them.

*RESPECT* for Fullbright.

That is actually a pretty awesome post by Fullbright.

Gravey wrote:
Edwin wrote:

Fullbright games cancels their appearance at PAX because of this.

http://thefullbrightcompany.com/2013...

Hot scoops! It makes me really happy to see a dev, no matter who, take a principled stand like that. Good on them.

That's not an easy choice for them to make given how much exposure the Indie Megabooth gets these days. Lots of respect for that decision. Good to see a bunch of writers I respect chime in with words of encouragement on his Twitter account. Will not be surprised if there's an article or two written about this today.

bombsfall wrote:

*RESPECT* for Fullbright.

+1

Callback to upthread, but wow, THAT is refreshing.

I know nothing of Gone Home but that was an incredible post.

I think I'll buy a copy of Gone Home when it's released.

Nevin73 wrote:

That is actually a pretty awesome post by Fullbright.

I was surprised to see him mention their (PA's) Kickstarter thing but I'm glad he did. I thought that entire Kickstarter was kind of seedy and few agreed at the time. When you see everything that's happened with them just in the past year though, it really puts things in further perspective. Mike & Jerry really need to take a step back and think about what they and their brand is really becoming representative of with their actions.

Tanglebones wrote:
obirano wrote:

Can I ask a completely serious and honest question? I'm not extremely well versed in the intricacies of the terminology.

If you are born with a penis or a vagina, what does that make you? What is the correct term?

Human

Edit: snark aside, I think what you're looking for is a definition of terms -

If you're born with a penis, and identify as male, you're cismale
If you're born with a penis, and identify as female, you're transfemale
If you're born with a vagina and identify as female, you're cisfemale
If you're born with a vagina and identify as male, you're transmale
If you're born with something in between, or both, you're intersexed

Hm. This just surprisingly made me uncomfortable.

So, now I'm a cismale? Instead of just male? I have no problem with transfemales/males, intersexed, etc. But renaming "male" and "female" seems unnecessary to me.

. . .

Thinking about it a little bit more I guess I can see where right now the language makes it feel like male/female is the standard and anything else is Other or unusual, which might make someone of the non "standard" categories feel like less of a person. And, if I'm being honest with myself, I guess that's how I feel, a bit. I understand that people inside don't necessarily reflect what's on the outside, and I think people should express who they are regardless of what they've been given to work with. I guess the language thing steps on my "male" toes. Hunh. Interesting. I'll be thinking about this some more.

lostlobster wrote:

I guess the language thing steps on my "male" toes.

I believe you speak for just about every cis person at some point. It's an odd thing for us to suddenly experience what it's like to be a hyphenated something. I'm a straight white male. My nouns and adjectives are the foundation. When you say american you probably think of me. Words and identity is weird, deep stuff, and I think the unease you (and most people) feel when they discover that a -term for them exists goes a tiny bit of the way to seeing why being properly pronouned means so much to people.

Tanglebones wrote:

I'm also being loud about how I'm not supporting them, because ideally I'd like to see them change their behavior, rather than collapse financially for want of my $160.

I completely respect anyone's decision to attend or not attend PAX because of the subject of this thread. The money that a person spends to attend (at least for the badges, which is a small percentage of the total price tag of the weekend) goes to the people that are holding forth ideas that are repugnant. However, consider what will happen if the people who are outraged by this do not go. The tickets they would have purchased will probably be purchased by people who either support, are indifferent to or are unaware of the issues we're discussing. By not attending the unaware are being robbed of someone to show them how wrong the people who agree with these ideas are. Would it not be better for those of us who are disgusted by the ideas Mr. Krahulik put forth to attend PAX and try to educate people on a more sensitive stance?

padriec wrote:

Would it not be better for those of us who are disgusted by the ideas Mr. Krahulik put forth to attend PAX and try to educate people on a more sensitive stance?

That would probably fall under the category of Your Mileage May Vary.

Cis and trans are useful prefixes for clarity in the context of transgender issues. I don't think anyone is honestly suggesting a global change to the usage of 'male' and 'female'. However, in contexts where it is important to be specific, appropriate terminology is needed.

lostlobster wrote:

So, now I'm a cismale? Instead of just male? I have no problem with transfemales/males, intersexed, etc. But renaming "male" and "female" seems unnecessary to me.

Well, we're not renaming male and female. "Cis" is only needed in a discussion to the same extent that "trans" is. Whether someone is a cis female or trans woman, they are female. The only time we need the prefixes at all is to discuss that distinction. When someone frames the discussion in such a way that female only means cis female as Mike did, then they're implicitly saying only cis females are normal and a trans female is not. It's offensive and transphobic.

It's also a common and understandable mistake for someone to make. The difference between you and Mike is that you're considering the effect your language has and he's shown he doesn't care.

padriec wrote:

Would it not be better for those of us who are disgusted by the ideas Mr. Krahulik put forth to attend PAX and try to educate people on a more sensitive stance?

You don't need to attend PAX to educate those people though. However, completely agree that any sort of boycott would probably fall on deaf ears given the popularity of the event.

Zudz wrote:
lostlobster wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

If you're born with a penis, and identify as male, you're cismale
If you're born with a penis, and identify as female, you're transfemale
If you're born with a vagina and identify as female, you're cisfemale
If you're born with a vagina and identify as male, you're transmale
If you're born with something in between, or both, you're intersexed

Hm. This just surprisingly made me uncomfortable.

So, now I'm a cismale? Instead of just male? I have no problem with transfemales/males, intersexed, etc. But renaming "male" and "female" seems unnecessary to me.

. . .

Thinking about it a little bit more I guess I can see where right now the language makes it feel like male/female is the standard and anything else is Other or unusual, which might make someone of the non "standard" categories feel like less of a person. And, if I'm being honest with myself, I guess that's how I feel, a bit. I understand that people inside don't necessarily reflect what's on the outside, and I think people should express who they are regardless of what they've been given to work with. I guess the language thing steps on my "male" toes. Hunh. Interesting. I'll be thinking about this some more.

It's a lexical clearness thing. "Male" refers to all males. Cismale and transmale refer to specific subsets of male. Sort of like having Carbon, but also having the more specific terms of Carbon-12 and Carbon-13.

That's my take anyway. I'm still new to this, so someone more experienced can feel free to step in and tell me otherwise.

Partly it's that. In a large part it's also to address accepted social notions that bio-males are "normal" and one who isn't bio-male is "abnormal" or "other" by introducing prefixes that are somewhat neutral.

Personally I've always thought that it remains a language of segregation and I'm slightly uncomfortable applying labels to people who haven't themselves adopted that label/identity. But I've not thought of anything better and until someone does I'm happy to keep using such terminology.

I think it is simpler than that. People are what they call themselves.