Feminism Catch-All (with FAQ)

I'm trying to instate him as an official "no hard feelings, let's move on" symbol.

Something relevant to what I've mentioned earlier in this thread and others - people who aren't faced with the problem on a regular basis, are not themselves sexist jerks, and tend to have friends who are likewise not sexist jerks might get lulled into a bit of a illusory feeling that the problem isn't really a big deal anymore. Or rather, things are much improved, and that the rest are details that need to be worked out but aren't the end of the world.

Here is a long, somewhat rambly article that notes the various reasons and problems with this phenomenon.

What I find interesting is the implication that some women might even think to themselves, "But women have gained so much and advanced so far in the last two generations. Banging this drum is starting to feel whiny and greedy." I deal with a lot of women in my line of work (both as professionals and clients), and it's weird that I never really noticed something of a pattern about this. I get asked a lot about sexism issues because - for various reasons - I'm considered harmless or even "one of the girls", so I'm "guy" enough to get talked to about the other perspective, but unlikely to bro out or whatever. Anyway, from these talks I never really thought about it, but I think there's a danger of complacency setting in on 20- and 30-something women who have done well for themselves. They're well educated, they have good jobs, they don't have to deal with the glass ceiling (or, more likely I think, either don't notice it or find that it's an extremely high ceiling and are ok with that), and believe that perhaps they should be ok with what they have. I actually see a weird sort of reversed feminism coming in - these women remarking regularly that it must be hard for guys to deal with "that kind of girl," referring to women who hold feminist ideals high on their list of topics of interest.

Anyway, I wanted to introduce that article to the thread for consideration. It's weird and interesting to me that feminism might have to worry about being a victim of its limited success.

edit: uh let me fix that article link to the right one yes okay thank you ahem

bombsfall wrote:

I'm trying to instate him as an official "no hard feelings, let's move on" symbol.

Gunna instate him as my sig, thanks!

Sorry that I'm generally late to the conversation. I have a little difficulty posting anything at length, so it takes me a while.

That article references The Feminine Mystique, which I think is good textbook history lesson on feminism.

It's telling that some women are quick to settle for "enough." Or that they don't want to "make a fuss."

To be honest, Mr. Three-Eye-Bear kind of freaks me out. >_> Why is he staring at me? (No, I do not know why I assume he is a mister.)

Oh my gosh, this story at The Hawkeye Initiative is fantastic. (Visual aid removed because it's better in context. :D)

Found an interesting reddit discussion in /r/bestof thought I would share it here.

Hypatian wrote:

Oh my gosh, this story at The Hawkeye Initiative is fantastic. (Visual aid removed because it's better in context. :D)

Shouldn't his balls be poking out to mirror the underboob in the original picture?

iaintgotnopants wrote:
Hypatian wrote:

Oh my gosh, this story at The Hawkeye Initiative is fantastic. (Visual aid removed because it's better in context. :D)

Shouldn't his balls be poking out to mirror the underboob in the original picture?

The first comment on A Different Site Which Shall Remain Nameless was a rather indignant "She has more clothes than he does!"

plavonica wrote:

Found an interesting reddit discussion in /r/bestof thought I would share it here.

This was alternately interesting, comical, thoughtful, and plain ol' dumb.

I mean to say it was very reddit.

Bloo Driver wrote:

I think there's a danger of complacency setting in on 20- and 30-something women who have done well for themselves.

Yeah, that's always something any sort of civil rights movement deals with, or any sort of movement I guess. A complacency sets in once you reach a certain point where the tide has raised enough boats high enough that from a certain elevation the height of the ocean looks equal enough (to absolutely torture a metaphor). God, I could have put that better.

It reminds me of a quote I heard from an anarchist friend once, something like "the middle class is the death of revolution". Chuckle-worthy, but at least a little bit true.

Something that hasn't really been brought up yet is the idea of intersectionality, which is something that I think most people already have a sense of. I suspect that many feminists who see it as an ongoing struggle do so at least in part because they see the plight of others as being connected to their own. A lot of upper-class straight married white women who lead profitable companies and maybe don't get as much of the brunt of sexism can look at other women and other oppressed peoples and see that there is a lot more work to be done even if they personally have it pretty great.

While I agree with the danger of complacency, Bloo Driver, I'm unsure that it solely concerns the 20 and 30-something women. I'm a 20-something woman (dangerously close to becoming a 30-something woman ), and feel I've done pretty well for myself. However, the complacency vibe I get comes from older women, interestingly enough (mostly my mother, some aunts and to a lesser degree my mother-in-law). The general idea is "well, you have all those things and possibilities we didn't have so really, you shouldn't complain all that much, be grateful for you got."

It's something that genuinely disturbs me. When Pasteur discovered penicillin, did scientists say "oh good, we've got one antibiotic, we're set for life?" Isn't this part of humanity, to strive to better ourselves, to better the lives we lead?

The idea of intersectionality is spot on, at least in my own limited experience. I don't lead a profitable company, but I do see what happens to other women, in other lines of work, in different walks of life, and I do feel there is a need to stand together. Being dismissive of these issues serves no one.

Fleming discovered penicillin. Pasteur pioneered microbiology and vaccination, invented pasteurization.

Disney sexes up Merida doll.

IMAGE(http://deredactie.be/polopoly_fs/1.1629920!image/852487299.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape670/852487299.jpg)

Left: Disney doll, Right: Merida as in the Pixar movie Brave.

Note - this is not an attempt to "sex up" the Merida character. Rather, it is Disnry trying to save a buck. The design of the dress is, once you remove the colours and the sash, the same as that if a bunch of the other princess dresses that they use on their small (2-inch) dolls. I think that, between the whole set of princesses, there are only 2 different models of dresses: short sleeved and long sleeved.

This is not me trying to excuse this, it was a stupid decision, and kudos on Disney for (apparently) changing course so quickly. I am just trying to ensure that the proper reasoning behind it is brought forward.

They also changed her face (eyes & cheeckbones), no?

dejanzie wrote:

They also changed her face (eyes & cheeckbones), no?

Again, I think this is to fit in the mold they already have for the dolls.

Hold on, it is my work at home day, let me go grab some if my daughters dolls and grab some pics. Let me see if what I think is right.

Here are the long-sleeved dresses. The one on the right is an outlier. There is some variation from one to another, but not much.

IMAGE(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e192/mbeau/null-2.jpg)

Here are the dolls. Pocahontas may have had some additional make-up artistry performed by my 5-year-old. However, ignoring that, the face mold is the same from one to another.

IMAGE(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e192/mbeau/null-1.jpg)

Without proper context, this thread got weird, quick. Co-worker came into my office to ask something while those pictures came up.

"What... are you reading?"

"... nothing. Please go away and do not speak of this."

Eleima wrote:

While I agree with the danger of complacency, Bloo Driver, I'm unsure that it solely concerns the 20 and 30-something women. I'm a 20-something woman (dangerously close to becoming a 30-something woman ), and feel I've done pretty well for myself. However, the complacency vibe I get comes from older women, interestingly enough (mostly my mother, some aunts and to a lesser degree my mother-in-law). The general idea is "well, you have all those things and possibilities we didn't have so really, you shouldn't complain all that much, be grateful for you got."

Oh, sure, I didn't mean to imply it's only women in that age range. I was just speaking from what I've personally encountered, and I work with a lot of white collar, relatively well off women in that age range. I can definitely agree with the vibe you're catching from the older generation, too.

I've got a friend who works as a an artist at Film Roman, specifically on their Marvel cartoons. And he tells me essentially the same thing as Mudbunny. Characters and vehicles are designed and redesigned in such a way that they can reuses molds (or different sizes of the same mold shape), and that this is actually a pretty big factor in those design decisions from the top down. Which as Mudbunny says just shifts the issue ever so slightly to the well-worn issue of the narrow range of body types presented in media, especially to kids. Actually I guess that was the original issue. Dammit!

Hey Mudbunny that's Jasmin not Pocahontas you racist.

Eleima wrote:

While I agree with the danger of complacency, Bloo Driver, I'm unsure that it solely concerns the 20 and 30-something women. I'm a 20-something woman (dangerously close to becoming a 30-something woman ), and feel I've done pretty well for myself. However, the complacency vibe I get comes from older women, interestingly enough (mostly my mother, some aunts and to a lesser degree my mother-in-law). The general idea is "well, you have all those things and possibilities we didn't have so really, you shouldn't complain all that much, be grateful for you got."

Its interesting i have a close friend my age (mid 40s) who's recently divorced and has recently been on a path of rediscovery and doing a lot more now than she ever did before while married. She stated that while she's sure she could've have done those things before she felt a need or a pressure to not break out of the 'wife' mode. My mom said similar things when she got divorced. So it makes sense that there's this sense of complacency from the older generation.

Apparently it is a Disney Princess Beach Party up in the mudbunny house.

I gotta figure most of the "controversy" comes largely from not really knowing how toys get made. That packaging was likely the mind child of some poorly Chinese or Korean who had 50 other doodles on packaging to get out that week.

"But why won't Disney just use stills from the movie?" you ask. Hell if I know. None of my He-Man figures had cartoon stills on em either. And my Luke Skywalker looks nothing like the Jedi Knight.

Don't want to derail too much, but I'll apply my animation industry knowledge here. Or rather, use it as an excuse to blather.

Disney makes princesses to market to little girls as aspirational figures. And then they rebrand and tweak them a billion different ways for a billion different markets. Walk into a Disney store and see how many iterations of Tinkerbell there are. The Merida redesign (and it barely is a redesign compared to how they regularly work with their other characters for merchandising) is just bringing her closer to the "house style" of sparkly princess bullsh*t whatnot. It wasn't done lightly. They're one of the biggest media companies on earth and they jealously guard their brand image. They are slotting her into the Disney Princess lineup that sells an unbelievable amount every year. And also making the body type more in line with the other princesses, which may also have something to do with the aforementioned reusing of models and molds. It's a bit past time to be surprised about this, although it's always a good time to think it sucks. So while their redesign of Merida is a bit blech, it's far from the worst things they do and certainly not in any way out of character. The sexism and general retrograde ideas that are all over Disney stuff could be a thread unto itself. And as an indie animator I have no problem telling you how much they suck in general.

Recent examples of worse stuff include these shirts. Guess which section of Target these shirts may be found in respectively.
IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/veS7xar.jpg)

Or these. Mickey has words such as The Boss, Awesome, Clever, Leader, etc. Minnie has Cute, Sweet, Gorgeous, etc. I suppose she also has Adventurous, which is at least a step in the right direction?
IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/cXITitJ.jpg)

Now if you want to talk surprising instances of upsetting body redesigns for Disney characters, might I point you to this gem:

bombsfall wrote:

Now if you want to talk surprising instances of upsetting body redesigns for Disney characters, might I point you to this gem:

(from the 2.30ish mark..) Well, that's me topped up with nightmare fuel for another week. Thanks.

If people look at that video and don't immediately understand how ridiculous the whole thing is, they are not fully functioning human beings. Wow.

bombsfall wrote:

Recent examples of worse stuff include these shirts. Guess which section of Target these shirts may be found in respectively.

:facepalm:

But honestly, I wonder if I would have noticed the issue had I just seen the girls shirt on its own in target rather than presented side-by-side like that. I'd like to think I would, if for no other reason than having paid more attention to this thread and others over the past year.

Per above, running into a bit of the "but these are his and these are hers" deal.

Our daughter's response to our giving her big brother's hand me down A's jersey and other gear was something to the effect of, "But, I don't want to be a boy!" Not going to force her to wear them but I don't like the fact that a 3 year old has notions like this. And it's persistently reinforced by tv programming, his/her toy aisles and preferred color palettes.

Again, probably wouldn't be noticing this stuff as much without these Goodjer threads on the topic. You keep writing. I'll keep reading.

New topic idea for the FAQ / discussion:

Language and how it affects, or reflects, our perceptions of a situation

I thought of this specifically in the Gaming Confession thread, where there is a discussion about Hunger Games, with the shipping talk about Team Peeta vs Team Gale, and Demyx responded with this:

Demyx[/url]]

McIrishJihad wrote:

I'm also Team Peeta, mostly because he got friend-zoned SO HARD.

I'm Team "Katniss is way too broken to pursue a healthy relationship".

Felt the same way about Buffy :p

It occurred to me, that the language used -- "Team Dude" -- essentially strips Katniss of agency over her own life, by shifting focus away from her, towards the male love interests. We ignore what is best for the character, (let alone what she actually wants), and make it about the guy. Now, to be fair, I've only seen the first movie, haven't read the books, and am not invested in this particular fandom, so I don't know to what degree this is reflected in the stories themselves, vs reflected in the fandom. Although, Twilight suffers from the same problem with Team Jacob vs Team Edward, and that is reflected in the fiction itself, from what I can tell (only half paying attention while an ex was watching the movies), to the point that the Twilight series is only nominally about Bella: she may as well be a McGuffin.

This video from a couple pages back brings up a similar point regarding how we discuss abuse: by saying "she is a battered woman" rather than "her husband abused her", we are shifting focus, and possibly deflecting blame from the male abuser to the female victim.

Alien Love Gardener wrote:

This kind of seems relevant? Maybe? I honestly can't tell anymore. Anyway, it's a good talk:

This is getting close to the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis, which has its share of detractors, and I'm not personally sure whether I buy it myself. My first thought after that part of the video was that it was a stretch. However, I do think language is important and wanted to bring it up.

Apparently the Reddit/4Chan forces got it pulled for ToS violations by concentrated attack on the flag video feature. It'll be back when Youtube puts it back.