Sexism, Gaming, Pax and Fear

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Yes, I am a woman, and I know very well that one of the most likely scenarios for standing up for yourself is being dismissed, your story not being taken seriously, with a dash of blame for "putting yourself in that situation" or "not handling it correctly."

So thank you for the excellent demonstration of how that usually works, ESA.

I'm not Demyx, but I feel the need to answer you.

Yes, I am a woman. And I have most definitely received every grade of inappropriate behavior you can get and not end up in a graveyard.

I'm so glad you haven't had the same experiences I have. But your experience is not even close to the norm. I will not be sending you pictures of the scars I bear from not having the same experience you have at all.

They do not always "break". They double down. They often strike people. Sometimes with weapons. They try to get them fired from their job, and in one case succeeded. Or get them thrown out of their church with a campaign of vicious lies. They try to break up your marriage. BTW - that was four separate people, four separate incidences. And the guy who told my ex that I was a cheap slut he saw screwing some other guy behind a curtain because I wouldn't let him feel me up was at a classic car show.

And other people don't always back you up, even if they saw the behavior. You should lighten up. He didn't mean it like that. He was just making a joke. It didn't hurt, so you shouldn't care. Just walk away.

No, people aren't any worse at PAX than they are at my grocery store. But unlike my grocery store, there are a corps of people who are publicly standing up to back people up, and it's taking some time to let the jerks learn that we mean business. That's why the topic keeps coming up. Because these jerks have not really faced that this crap isn't acceptable, and that they will be held accountable for it.

From the events I've been to in my life (not nearly as extensive as ESA) I've seen the same sorts of things she describes. You do not lay hands on or harass the models, it's dealt with quite severely. Now at PAX, where much of the staff is volunteer maybe the assertiveness of the staff isn't quite up to snuff or something? Haven't been though, so all I can do is speculate.

Assault & Battery is no joke though. I wish more people would press charges for that kind of stuff, unfortunately in a family case you have to share a personal space with the other person, and that can be quite difficult to mentally reconcile, so I understand why people (unfortunately) stay silent, especially when the family unit doesn't step up and get your back.

NSMike wrote:
Demyx is a woman.

Congratulations on your exceptional experiences. The stories from the women in this thread, and ones I've heard just about everywhere else contradict yours, ESA. I have no reason to disbelieve these women. You, on the other hand, have set up your forum handle here mockingly named after one of the founders, and set up your persona here as some kind of mystery which you play up and into. I have a hard time taking your contributions to any conversation here with much gravity.

I'm a little taken aback by this and how it has anything to do with an expressed viewpoint. Perhaps her viewpoint is exceptional because she has the self confidence to assert herself in ways that many women in this thread aren't comfortable with. I don't think that means we should be dismissive of the viewpoint.

Edit: it could also be that she is fortunate/wise enough to surround herself with professionals.

And I'm taken aback that 15 pages in, we still haven't gotten across the basic concept of empathy.

EvilShawnAndrich wrote:
Bloo Driver wrote:
The Conformist wrote:
EvilShawnAndrich wrote:
There needs to be some common sense here.

I really wish that common sense was universal hah.

I really wish we could just stop using this phrase altogether when it comes to dealing with people from different backgrounds, experiences, and viewpoints. You know - people. "Common sense" is really just the handwave of "I'm right and people who don't get it are stupid" in an exceptionally subjective way. ESA's post that followed that comment was a great example of that. There are points in there that are not just universally understood as "alright".

Really Bloo? Are you kidding me?

What? Are you going to invoke some cultural practice from some obscure lost tribe from the Amazon?

What part of "look but don't touch/don't be verbally vulgar/invade a woman's personal space" does not a single person from any civilized culture/country on the planet not understand this when at a public venue?

Wow, the lengths some people go just to perpetuate this conversation is astounding.

Bottom line kids, don't be an idiot. If you don't know what that means /require clarification, then you have problems.

No, I am not kidding. My actual point, outside your hyperbolic mischaracterization of it, is that not all lines are bright lines. When does a look become a leer? When is proximity invading personal space? When is attention creepy? The answer is, of course, subjective from scenario to scenario. Of course it should be clear when we have crossed it, but acting like there's one golden standard that people just wilfully disregard is oversimplifying a complex issue. We like to pretend we have enlightened simplicity, but the truth is that often is part of the problem. It speaks to an extremely shallow under standing of the actual issue.

NSMike wrote:
And I'm taken aback that 15 pages in, we still haven't gotten across the basic concept of empathy.

I'm not. As ESA showed us, it's important to make everything seem simple and shallow so we can make the quick followup of intimating it's not really a problem, just something people like to faff about. Part of keeping that viewpoint lies with wilfully avoiding the idea that situations, experiences, and motivations can be very different.

Edit: I'm just gonna keep jamming the post button.

NSMike wrote:
And I'm taken aback that 15 pages in, we still haven't gotten across the basic concept of empathy.

Well to be fair I don't think just because she may show a lack of empathy because of HER own experiences her actual credibility should be in question. Our experiences throughout life can often determine our level of empathy towards others experiences. She's quite possibly never experienced what Momgamer or Demyx has so it's hard for her to relate. But at least she's posting here and seeing other viewpoints, and I don't think questioning her credibility is a great way to show her that there are two sides to every coin.

I myself have never in my entire life witnessed what Momgamer and Demyx have gone through, it still is fairly difficult for me to even think a person is capable of treating a woman that way. I've just never seen it happen, I often read story's and think to myself "is that even possible?". But after coming to this site and hearing the stories from women who seem to be extremely genuine and sincere about their experiences, I've grown more sympathetic and know that these problems DO exist all the time and need to be stopped. I think if this community is going to try and educate someone we need to start by explaining without being condescending or snide in our remarks.

Just because the individual may come across as a little agressive doesn't (in my opinion) give us the right to respond in kind. I'm definitely learning this myself from day to day hah.

NSMike wrote:
Demyx is a woman.

Congratulations on your exceptional experiences. The stories from the women in this thread, and ones I've heard just about everywhere else contradict yours, ESA. I have no reason to disbelieve these women. You, on the other hand, have set up your forum handle here mockingly named after one of the founders, and set up your persona here as some kind of mystery which you play up and into. I have a hard time taking your contributions to any conversation here with much gravity.


Rules:
1) No personal attacks. This includes indirect "snide" comments and suggestions that the other person posting is an idiot.

Could ESA have been a little more diplomatic when discussing a horrible event in MV's life? Yeah, probably. No reason to take the safety off the flamethrower, though.

The Conformist wrote:
NSMike wrote:
And I'm taken aback that 15 pages in, we still haven't gotten across the basic concept of empathy.

Well to be fair I don't think just because she may show a lack of empathy because of HER own experiences her actual credibility should be in question. Our experiences throughout life can often determine our level of empathy towards others experiences. She's quite possibly never experienced what Momgamer or Demyx has so it's hard for her to relate. But at least she's posting here and seeing other viewpoints, and I don't think questioning her credibility is a great way to show her that there are two sides to every coin.

I myself have never in my entire life witnessed what Momgamer and Demyx have gone through, it still is fairly difficult for me to even think a person is capable of treating a woman that way. I've just never seen it happen, I often read story's and think to myself "is that even possible?". But after coming to this site and hearing the stories from women who seem to be extremely genuine and sincere about their experiences, I've grown more sympathetic and know that these problems DO exist all the time and need to be stopped. I think if this community is going to try and educate someone we need to start by explaining without being condescending or snide in our remarks.

Just because the individual may come across as a little agressive doesn't (in my opinion) give us the right to respond in kind. I'm definitely learning this myself from day to day hah.

I'd agree with this. Yes, ESA came across kind of strong, but I think she has a few valid points. Hell, everyone here has valid points. People react to situations in different ways, and it may have just been the luck of the draw that her experiences were more "favorable" than MomGamer's and Demyx's. The underlying problem of certain types of men believing that they can act without regard to other people's feelings is a problem either way.

There are a lot of things which will influence a woman's individual experience with these things. Where you go, who you're with, and - with all honesty - how you look can change everything.

What do you do when you're an average looking woman in an average town and a big scary guy grabs your ass on his way out of the grocery store? He's leaving. No one else was around to see it. You need to get home before the kids return from school. I know what he's betting you'll do. What makes me sick to my stomach is, he may be correct in his assumption. That's the world many women are living in.

Jayhawker wrote:
I don't think you have to be Cal Lightman or Patrick Jane to have a strong suspicion that EAS is not a woman.

Between the comment about her handle and now the equivalent of pics or STFU I am now officially uncomfortable with this thread. good day

Let's not get into gender-detective mode. There's 100 different ways that could hurt people and none it could help.

Switchbreak wrote:
Let's not get into gender-detective mode. There's 100 different ways that could hurt people and none it could help.

Very yes.

Regardless of what you think of someone's persona, whether they're posting in good faith or otherwise.

As a reminder - you can ignore folks, if needed.

*Edit* Unnecessary. Sorry.

@ NSMike

here, I guess everyone now has to expose parts of their lives that they don't necessarily want to share, just to pass your little test.

Oh by the way, my blood type is A+, I hope you won't ask for a copy of my bank statement, my home address, or my bra size. But, if you insist, I can provide those too upon request. -_-

http://imgur.com/a/XTmUi

I guess I'm not entitled to have opinions, thoughts, or share my life experiences.

I think I'm done with GWJ.

I'm not sure what it says about the internets that this thread is way, way more contentious than the one casually discussing the feasibility of armed and internal fringe groups waging open war with the United States, but I am sure it says something.

I believe what people tell me about themselves, generally. I didn't doubt her claims of her gender, and I certainly didn't ask for proof or set up a test, nor did I ever imply she was idiotic. I doubted her intentions. Perhaps it is not good form to call out a troll, but that's all I've been able to see in her P&C posts.

NSMike wrote:
I believe what people tell me about themselves, generally. I didn't doubt her claims of her gender, and I certainly didn't ask for proof or set up a test, nor did I ever imply she was idiotic. I doubted her intentions. Perhaps it is not good form to call out a troll, but that's all I've been able to see in her P&C posts.

Yeah, I just caught it as run-of-the-mill troll-naming. And, to be fair, I agree with NSMike's viewpoint on this matter. ESA's posts boiled down to, "Shut up, crybabies," and purposefully being combative to evoke a combative/snarky counter-reply (thoughtfully handed on a silver platter by Jayhawker) so that she could act righteously insulted and plant the flag in the moral high ground rather than actually continue the discussion from several points and posts that were made in a logical manner.

Pretty standard forum stuff, really.

But the end result really does end up this way - it's exceptionally narrow to think that one particular set of one person's experiences are the only reasonable and realistic turn of events that can happen. On top of that, I think that this, which I missed before (bold mine) -

EvilShawnAndrich wrote:
If this happened to me at one of these events I would have zero problems very publicly saying, "Hey you idiot, stop leering at me and salivating all over yourself you prick. Get lost before I call the cops you dickless dipsh*t." You think one of these gaming nerds going to withstand that? LOL. NO. I've done this to leering idiots and they crumble like a weak house of cards.

/Problem solved.

... shows a massive lack of actual knowledge, first hand or otherwise, of the events and subjects in question. The idea you can just break down "these gaming nerds" is... I dunno. It applies the same sort of really insulting and backwards thinking towards gamers as jerkoff MRA folks do towards "feminists".

This thread got weird.

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