Sexism, Gaming, Pax and Fear

They're clearly implying that monitors are shinier and that you will invariably see your own breasts in the shiny surface when you're getting dressed.

Since everyone technically has breasts, they're implying that console gamers don't wash.

Demyx wrote:

Since everyone technically has breasts, they're implying that console gamers don't wash.

Or that PC gamers are more...sedentary.

Demyx wrote:

Since everyone technically has breasts, they're implying that console gamers don't wash.

How dare you!

For the record, my awesome and squeaky-clean rack is shyly hidden behind an ever-so-feminine pelt of well-groomed chest hair.

Maybe they're implying that the sedentary lifestyle makes them grow larger than normal breasts?

Nevin73 wrote:

One thing that I wanted to, I don't know, just get out there.

I consider myself a pig. My wife considers me a pig. We even joke about it. I love the female form and will appreciate it. As my wife puts it, I can look at the menu, I just can't order from it.

When I look at an attractive woman, I don't think about what her hopes and dreams are or if she is a decent human being. I am just looking at her curves...essentially objectifying her. However, discretion and respect are key. I try not to be obvious about the way I look at someone. I have seen that done and even as a man, I am creeped out by it. I definitely don’t confront someone about my desires, lay my hands on someone or even address that they are attractive. Ideally, my objectification is merely for me and me alone to be aware of.

I guess I wanted to separate out the run-of-the-mill “I love looking at women” type of guy (who remains respectful) and the pieces of sh*t that have been mentioned in the various stories and blogs referenced in this thread. Guys that do lay hands on a woman without invitation are criminals who should be prosecuted. It is my sincere belief that this type of person is, at least, a future rapist. Guys that proposition women in a professional setting should be fired.

I was thinking about what you've said here. I don't think this makes someone a pig...

Biologically the attributes associated with the female and male forms are hard wired into (most of) our brains to make us desire sex, because we are designed to breed. There is a pretty strong evolutionary argument to be made that men are wired to be ready to breed at any time and that for thousands of years a man having multiple sex partners was pretty much status quo for those with means...

Studies have shown time and time again that if you are a statistically common human being when you see a person you immediately make a snap judgement on their attractiveness, whether you are aware of it or not. You also subconsciously evaluate their scent and if they have features that you particularly like, you will notice in a sexual way. This is normal behavior for a living organism driven by nature to create offspring.

So I don't think it makes a man a pig to enjoy the female form. It is your actions that make you a pig through aggressive unwelcome actions or comments. If looking makes one a pig, we've lost perspective on what it is to be human. (Notice I said look, not stare or uncomfortably ogle)

I like cosplayers for two reasons:

1. Some of those costumes are really well done. The amount of craftsmanship and detail is truly impressive.
2. The female outfits mentioned are not things you see every day, they are exotic, and as a man I find that hot.

It is possible to have both responses, and both are reasonable for a human being.

Man, 14 pages and i still feel like there is a disconnection so fundamental that one could accurately assume that no discussion had taken place.

Thinking is fine.

Leering, gawking, talking lewdly, and groping aren't.

And if one is looking so obviously and often that it is an in joke and that he is a pig, that should be a sign of a problem.

We used to have employees that felt like it was their manly duty to come to the other guys in the store and announce whenever a good-looking woman would enter the store. I've worked in 11 different stores, and this is the case in every single one. Some guys even created codes to announce over the intercom to let others know.

And in every one of these stores we had female employees fully aware of the activity. Leering is not a man thing, it's just a sign you haven't fully matured into an adult yet.

Jayhawker wrote:

And if one is looking so obviously and often that it is an in joke and that he is a pig, that should be a sign of a problem.

We used to have employees that felt like it was their manly duty to come to the other guys in the store and announce whenever a good-looking woman would enter the store. I've worked in 11 different stores, and this is the case in every single one. Some guys even created codes to announce over the intercom to let others know.

And in every one of these stores we had female employees fully aware of the activity. Leering is not a man thing, it's just a sign you haven't fully matured into an adult yet.

99% of semaphore between lifeguards at pools and public beaches are essentially hot girl notifications. I learned to recognize shortcuts like "bik" for bikini and similar when I learned it one summer at the beach for fun.

99% of semaphore between lifeguards at pools and public beaches are essentially hot girl notifications. I learned to recognize shortcuts like "bik" for bikini and similar when I learned it one summer at the beach for fun.

That is almost as clever as "Louie" and "Roger" in highschool football. /sarcasm

Fast food restaurants have them too. I don't remember what the code was though, that was a long time ago.

Seth wrote:

Thinking is fine.

Leering, gawking, talking lewdly, and groping aren't.

^ pretty much this. It's natural for men to look, I'm not offended by that. Do anything more unwelcomed, and he risks losing an eye with me.

My So-Called 'Post-Feminist' Life in Arts and Letters (The Nation)

I consider throwing in the towel. The lack of respectful coverage, the slut-shaming and name-calling, all the girly book covers and not-my-titles despite high literary aspirations, has worn me down, made me question everything: my abilities, my future, my life. This is what sexism does best: it makes you feel crazy for desiring parity and hopeless about ever achieving it. A few months later, after delivering a lecture on the media-invented "mommy wars" at the Sun Valley Writers' Conference, a song pops up on my iPhone as I'm walking back to my hotel room: Bob Dylan's "Like a Rolling Stone." "When you ain't got nothing," Dylan sings, "you got nothing to lose."

Yes, I think. Yes.

There needs to be some common sense here.

I used to model for my brothers when they were doing the custom car scene and would wear upto some very skimpy swim wear.

Of course I was expecting to be ogled. Humans are sexual beings. It's completely natural for men to want to check you out, especially if you are wearing next to nothing. No big deal.

On the other hand, there was an expectation that personal space would be respected, which it always was in my case.

Now, in the car show scene, the promoters always made sure the models felt comfortable and protected. If security saw someone acting inappropriately or using vulgar language, they were very publicly admonished and sometimes literally picked up by their collars, dragged off and thrown out, and that's just at American car shows. At the international shows men were terrified to upset any models or do anything inappropriate as the consequences could lead upto having your ass unceremoniously publicly kicked in front of everyone and then literally dragged and thrown out. Now to be fair, I've only seen this twice during my brothers car show tours but it was enough to feel very safe and comfortable.

This sent a very chilling message to the all the men present.

I've had far more naughty behavior from men when I'm at the beach than any car show and never was there any improper behavior at any professional modeling shoot I've done. In fact, the men are all walking on eggshells at these gigs. You mess with one of the girls and you are instantly black listed from future work.

So, while I've never been to a Pax or similar, if the security make a very public display to keep things on the up and up, then there shouldn't be any problems.

Seriously boys, this isn't rocket science. Feel free to look but don't leer and of course don't say anything vulgar or invade personal space.

Seth wrote:

Man, 14 pages and i still feel like there is a disconnection so fundamental that one could accurately assume that no discussion had taken place.

Thinking is fine.

Leering, gawking, talking lewdly, and groping aren't.

But this is way less fun than railing against the straw men thought police.

EvilShawnAndrich wrote:

So, while I've never been to a Pax or similar, if the security make a very public display to keep things on the up and up, then there shouldn't be any problems.

I think PAX has kicked people out and/or blacklisted them for their behavior, though. This didn't seem to automatically stop the behavior, so I'm a little iffy on the strength of your "if/then" premise.

EvilShawnAndrich wrote:

There needs to be some common sense here.

I really wish that common sense was universal hah. And I don't disagree with anything you said, but sometimes I wonder if it's just MORE difficult for certain men to grasp or perhaps mentally those men aren't just all there. Now I'm not excusing that most men can be just pigs, but there are a few instances where I see a guy do something REALLY sexist or perverted and I just think to myself "hmm he didn't seem all there". For example:

When I was a teenager I used to work at a gas station out by a popular lake, and constantly women would come in wearing bikini's and other such clothing. There was one kid who stuck out to me while I was working there. He would always come in with his mom and around that time he was probably 10-12 years of age. He was very socially awkward and would always just sit and stare at the women from the corner of his eye, it was very uncomfortable just to witness. Anyways fast forward a few years and now he himself works at that same gas station, and he's probably in his early 20's by now. My ex girlfriend (who knew this kid/man in question) said she went to go get a soda at the station and saw him there, when she saw him she said hi and he returned the favor (she was wearing a low cut skirt by the way).

So she heads to the back to grab a soda from the cooler and upon heading back up front she notices that he his gone. She approaches the counter and realizes that he is on his hands and knees trying to look up her skirt, while making a poor attempt to mask his efforts by fiddling with some paperwork on the shelf below. So she catches him doing that and that still didn't stop him from staring at her chest the entire time she was paying for her product. She said he wasn't even making an attempt to just glance at her chest, he was full out staring and not even bothering making eye contact. Now knowing this particular man and how awkward he is I just get the feeling that something isn't mentally right with the individual.

Like I said, I'm not saying that just because a guy acts like a perv. he's not mentally stable. Just thought it was an interesting story.

Hopefully (and this is said in all seriousness) the ease of access to nudity and porn on the internet will preclude the need for socially inept young men from making asses of themselves. "Why should I stare at your boobs when I've seen dozens of naked breasts this morning alone?"

Edit: Of course some people are just "off". Hopefully there is enough of a support system in place (both family and professional) to address any potential dangers to society.

Nevin73 wrote:

Hopefully (and this is said in all seriousness) the ease of access to nudity and porn on the internet will preclude the need for socially inept young men from making asses of themselves. "Why should I stare at your boobs when I've seen dozens of naked breasts this morning alone?"

Unfortunately, the complete opposite is probably more the case: "I can see boobs so easily on the internet, so why can't I see yours...RIGHT NOW!?!?!"

The Conformist wrote:
EvilShawnAndrich wrote:

There needs to be some common sense here.

I really wish that common sense was universal hah.

I really wish we could just stop using this phrase altogether when it comes to dealing with people from different backgrounds, experiences, and viewpoints. You know - people. "Common sense" is really just the handwave of "I'm right and people who don't get it are stupid" in an exceptionally subjective way. ESA's post that followed that comment was a great example of that. There are points in there that are not just universally understood as "alright".

Once again entering the world of "WTF is [em]with[/em] people?":

Rape and Death Threats: What Men's Rights Activists Really Look Like (Jezebel)

"Charlotte," the red-haired women in the video below, was one of many protestors at a recent lecture sponsored by a Men’s Rights group at the University of Toronto. A MRA documented her attempts to read an article by our own Lindy West detailing how feminists also want to dismantle society's archaic definition of masculinity. Charlotte was pissed off and feisty because she was consistently interrupted as she tried to explain how feminists hate the patriarchy, not men themselves. Her message wasn't anti-men, it was anti-gender stereotypes and anti-oppression. But she wasn't subservient. And now she's paying for the crime of being a woman with a public opinion.

After the video received around 300,000 views in one week, thousands of MRAs joined forces to harass and cyber-stalk Charlotte: they've circulated her personal info, dredged up details about her past (one fellow told Charlotte that her dog who died years ago would be "disappointed" in her), and sent her messages threatening to rape and kill and rape her again — one of the more PG-rated ones promises that "we will not rest until your unholy blood is shed."

Bloo Driver wrote:
The Conformist wrote:
EvilShawnAndrich wrote:

There needs to be some common sense here.

I really wish that common sense was universal hah.

I really wish we could just stop using this phrase altogether when it comes to dealing with people from different backgrounds, experiences, and viewpoints. You know - people. "Common sense" is really just the handwave of "I'm right and people who don't get it are stupid" in an exceptionally subjective way. ESA's post that followed that comment was a great example of that. There are points in there that are not just universally understood as "alright".

Really Bloo? Are you kidding me?

What? Are you going to invoke some cultural practice from some obscure lost tribe from the Amazon?

What part of "look but don't touch/don't be verbally vulgar/invade a woman's personal space" does not a single person from any civilized culture/country on the planet not understand this when at a public venue?

Wow, the lengths some people go just to perpetuate this conversation is astounding.

Bottom line kids, don't be an idiot. If you don't know what that means /require clarification, then you have problems.

EvilShawnAndrich wrote:

What part of "look but don't touch/don't be verbally vulgar/invade a woman's personal space" does not a single person from any civilized culture/country on the planet not understand this when at a public venue?

Obviously they don't, or we wouldn't have these issues.

Demyx wrote:
EvilShawnAndrich wrote:

What part of "look but don't touch/don't be verbally vulgar/invade a woman's personal space" does not a single person from any civilized culture/country on the planet not understand this when at a public venue?

Obviously they don't, or we wouldn't have these issues.

I doubt this. If this is really a "problem" at gaming conventions / the like, then it's the failure of the promoters to protect the interest of the female guests.

Less talk, more public shaming and ass kicking is required / insert local applicable laws here.

If a woman is feeling genuinely threatened at one of these venues, she should have the common sense to immediately stop, grab a security person(s), point the offender out and have him immediately dealt with instead of boo hooing on a blog/whatever after the fact.

If that doesn't bring immediate resolution, then there are ways to proverbially castrate an idiot in public. You want to destroy a man? Rip his pride right away from him publicly and shame him in front of everyone on the spot. If this happened to me at one of these events I would have zero problems very publicly saying, "Hey you idiot, stop leering at me and salivating all over yourself you prick. Get lost before I call the cops you dickless dipsh*t." You think one of these gaming nerds going to withstand that? LOL. NO. I've done this to leering idiots and they crumble like a weak house of cards.

/Problem solved.

EvilShawnAndrich wrote:

If a woman is feeling genuinely threatened at one of these venues, she should have the common sense to immediately stop, grab a security person(s), point the offender out and have him immediately dealt with instead of boo hooing on a blog/whatever after the fact.

If that doesn't bring immediate resolution, then there are ways to proverbially castrate an idiot in public. You want to destroy a man? Rip his pride right away from him publicly and shame him on front of everyone on the spot. If this happened to me at one of these events I would have zero problems very publicly saying, "Hey you idiot, stop leering at me and salivating all over yourself you prick. Get lost before I call the cops you dickless dipsh*t." You think one of these gaming nerds going to withstand that? LOL. NO. I've done this to leering idiots and they crumble like a weak house of cards.

/Problem solved.

No.

Men who leer inappropriately at women do not usually crumble like a house of cards when a woman confronts them in this manner. They are just as likely to start calling you a bitch, a whore, telling you how you need to get laid so you stop being such a feminazi, even threatening to rape or hit you. Every time a woman confronts a man this way, she is gambling that this won't happen.

Think the crowd won't stand for that? Another gamble. Sometimes they will side with the ass. Sometimes they'll tell you to lighten up, he's just having a bit of fun.

The authorities? Yet another gamble. They're as likely to side with the ass or do nothing as they are to help.

And every single time you throw these dice and make this gamble, you are facing being publically shamed, screamed at, threatened. Even strong women balk at this. If you do it at an industry venue, you might be saying good bye to your career. If you do it in front of the wrong person, you might end up stalked or assaulted. It's scary and takes a tremendous amount of energy and mental fortitude every single time, and I don't think there's any woman out there who has the ability to do it every single time she notices a problem.

Not to mention that decades of social conditioning teaches women that acting out that way is always wrong. Even feminist women often find it difficult to overcome this conditioning to stick up for themselves.

No, it's not "common sense" to go get help or to "publically castrate" someone. I'd be less scared of skydiving or walking into a lion's cage than some of the stuff you act like any woman should do on an everyday basis.

Reminds me of the time I stood up for myself against a male family member when I was an older teen. He arguing with me; I argued right back. He punched me. I fell down and cut my arm open on a VHS tape that shattered when I landed on it. The adult in this situation blamed me for instigating the attack: saying that I wanted him to strike me so he'd get in trouble. They went into another room where he was comforted. I went into the bathroom to tend to my open, bleeding wound.

Now, I can go around telling dudes to "eff off" and "don't mess me, man I'm so tough!" all night and day but I don't want to get punched in the face. So, I pick my battles and handle them accordingly.

Demyx wrote:
EvilShawnAndrich wrote:

If a woman is feeling genuinely threatened at one of these venues, she should have the common sense to immediately stop, grab a security person(s), point the offender out and have him immediately dealt with instead of boo hooing on a blog/whatever after the fact.

If that doesn't bring immediate resolution, then there are ways to proverbially castrate an idiot in public. You want to destroy a man? Rip his pride right away from him publicly and shame him on front of everyone on the spot. If this happened to me at one of these events I would have zero problems very publicly saying, "Hey you idiot, stop leering at me and salivating all over yourself you prick. Get lost before I call the cops you dickless dipsh*t." You think one of these gaming nerds going to withstand that? LOL. NO. I've done this to leering idiots and they crumble like a weak house of cards.

/Problem solved.

No.

Men who leer inappropriately at women do not usually crumble like a house of cards when a woman confronts them in this manner. They are just as likely to start calling you a bitch, a whore, telling you how you need to get laid so you stop being such a feminazi, even threatening to rape or hit you. Every time a woman confronts a man this way, she is gambling that this won't happen.

Think the crowd won't stand for that? Another gamble. Sometimes they will side with the ass. Sometimes they'll tell you to lighten up, he's just having a bit of fun.

The authorities? Yet another gamble. They're as likely to side with the ass or do nothing as they are to help.

And every single time you throw these dice and make this gamble, you are facing being publically shamed, screamed at, threatened. Even strong women balk at this. If you do it at an industry venue, you might be saying good bye to your career. If you do it in front of the wrong person, you might end up stalked or assaulted. It's scary and takes a tremendous amount of energy and mental fortitude every single time, and I don't think there's any woman out there who has the ability to do it every single time she notices a problem.

I need a bit of clarification here. Are you a woman? Have you ever experienced leering/inappropriate behavior?

My words are from my own personal actual experience with these issues. Not once has the above solutions not worked for me personally...worldwide, from New york to Malaysia and everywhere in between.

So this is not some "theory" or just empty words. It's not hard at all to utterly destroy a guy publicly, especially if he buddies are with him. He bites back with snarky comments? Please, that will last about a millisecond when you get a public crowd involved. They break. They always do.

To be fair, I have not been to Pax in particular. You make it sound like women are experiencing everything short of rape there. I find it very hard to believe these pax nerds are worse than car show guys.

I think both Evil and Dem have just experienced two different types of behavior. What seems to work with some, doesn't work with others.

Demyx is a woman.

Congratulations on your exceptional experiences. The stories from the women in this thread, and ones I've heard just about everywhere else contradict yours, ESA. I have no reason to disbelieve these women. You, on the other hand, have set up your forum handle here mockingly named after one of the founders, and set up your persona here as some kind of mystery which you play up and into. I have a hard time taking your contributions to any conversation here with much gravity.

Mystic Violet wrote:

Reminds me of the time I stood up for myself against a male family member when I was an older teen. He arguing with me; I argued right back. He punched me. I fell down and cut my arm open on a VHS tape that shattered when I landed on it. The adult in this situation blamed me for instigating the attack: saying that I wanted him to strike me so he'd get in trouble. They went into another room where he was comforted. I went into the bathroom to tend to my open, bleeding wound.

Now, I can go around telling dudes to "eff off" and "don't mess me, man I'm so tough!" all night and day but I don't want to get punched in the face. So, I pick my battles and handle them accordingly.

I'm sorry this happened to you.

Did you call the police?

I think not escalating this to police level leaves you possibly open to this kind of behavior in the future.

Family or no, I would have called the police and pressed charges.

I don't want to diminish the fact that something absolutely horrible happened to you but I doubt that kind of behavior is happening at Pax/the like. I feel this thread could easily evolve/derail into physical battery against women and I think that's a whole different P&C and can of worms.

NSMike wrote:

Demyx is a woman.

Congratulations on your exceptional experiences. The stories from the women in this thread, and ones I've heard just about everywhere else contradict yours, ESA. I have no reason to disbelieve these women. You, on the other hand, have set up your forum handle here mockingly named after one of the founders, and set up your persona here as some kind of mystery which you play up and into. I have a hard time taking your contributions to any conversation here with much gravity.

Fair enough Mike, I'll just bow out.