Sexism, Gaming, Pax and Fear

Not to derail the thread, but I just GOTTA leave this here for Lara

IMAGE(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/jmc_bks/8179430/35479/35479_320.jpg)

Trachalio wrote:

Not to derail the thread, but I just GOTTA leave this here for Lara

IMAGE(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/jmc_bks/8179430/35479/35479_320.jpg)

A true literary masterpiece!

Excellent! I've been looking for suggested readings for my book club.

You guys should check out the vaginal fantasy bookclub. They do live youtube talk on the books they ready each month. They talk about the books on their forums. Felicia Day and Veronica Belmont runs it with two other ladies that don't have an internet presence I know of.

momgamer wrote:

There is a stigma to it in real book stores that you don't get at the grocery store.

I would bet even money, that e-readers have shot romance numbers even higher. It's a whole lot easier to read one on a kindle than it is to be seen with the gaudy, gold inlaid covers of pulchritude.

KaterinLHC wrote:

A true literary masterpiece!

Omg, I hadn't seen this before. I hurt myself I laughed so much!

Lara's live-tweeting of Pregnasia was the reason I started paying attention to Twitter. Damn that was a funny run of tweets.

I know this is coming from a few pages back, and was possibly mentioned while I was skimming (but I don't think so). I would say that another part of the reason why women are scantily clad in comics comes from straight up laziness / lack of talent / lack of respect for the art form. Straight / round flesh or skin tight clothing is much easier to draw and shade than loose fabric. Superman, Batman, Green lantern all wore skin tight clothing since the golden age despite the fact that it is really weird and unconventional.

There is LOADS of sexism and titillation going on as reasoning for why women are scantily clad and I realize I minimized that quite a bit in the first paragraph. Clearly you can point to a ton of reasons OTHER than difficulty drawing clothing back when that art was popular to contradict me. Like all the wonder woman tropes about being bound by men... and getting into really stupid situations.... etc [imagine I looked up and pasted links I'm failing to find right now]. In fact, I just disproved my own point. So never mind. That's what happens when I find small points I want to talk about and then talk about them.

I'll leave this conversation with myself out there for fun because I can. Also, so I can say that Supernormal Step (a comic by the same artist as the one that did the appropriately dressed heroines) is awesome and I'm sad that I've now caught all the way up to the present.

Jolly Bill wrote:

Straight / round flesh or skin tight clothing is much easier to draw and shade than loose fabric.

This. Though if I wanted to argue in favor of the choice I'd say that it's because it's harder for bad guys to grab you in a skinsuit so they make practical sense for superheroes.

complexmath wrote:
Jolly Bill wrote:

Straight / round flesh or skin tight clothing is much easier to draw and shade than loose fabric.

This. Though if I wanted to argue in favor of the choice I'd say that it's because it's harder for bad guys to grab you in a skinsuit so they make practical sense for superheroes.

IMAGE(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8039/8045302873_8232eb8a4b_z.jpg)

(Can't stop myself from posting this. I love Edna Mode.)

No capes.

This seems relevant, and well worth a read...
misogyny-sexism-and-why-rps-isnt-shutting-up

<3 John Walker.

stevenmack wrote:

This seems relevant, and well worth a read...
misogyny-sexism-and-why-rps-isnt-shutting-up

Good for John and the rest to post that. Haven't fully read it yet, but that site has always been very good about gender (and other) issues in games. It's been really sad to see how much flack they've gotten in the last year. Especially considering they've given such wonderful articles like E3 2011 Booth Babe Babes.

How many sitcoms feature the sassy wife trying to support her dumb and hopeless husband?

How many dumb white people were in Pocahontas (disney)? How many dumb Indians were there?

Where do you draw the line between what is sexism and what is ... expression?

Why do we still have cheer/dancers at sporting events?

Feels like a good time to quote a bit from John's article. Good questions, bandit, but not actually the matter at hand. Maybe start a new thread.

“Why don’t you talk about men’s issues?”

First of all, the question presumes the peculiar notion that writing about women’s issues precludes our writing about men’s. That’s obviously ridiculous. And secondly, sadly the question is generally used dishonestly.

There are issues that affect men, and often men who are the target demographic of gaming. Suicide is an especially serious example, and it’s something RPS has covered, and expressed concern over. Our caring about equality in the games industry, and in the portrayal of women, does not exclude our caring about matters affecting men. Obviously.

However, the question is generally designed to derail. It’s often as relevant as asking, “Why don’t you talk about digital download re-sales?” at the end of an article about the troubles of pre-ordering. Sure, why don’t we? Good thing to talk about. Not really a pertinent question in this instance. And that’s the idea – by asking this broad, presumptive question, the aim is to distort the discussion from the matter at hand, which in turn further leaves the matter at hand undiscussed. By the time you’re having tiresome arguments about whether male characters being shown as successful and strong is harmful to men, you’re no longer discussing the fact that scantily clad women are being used to sell videogames. That’s the ultimate aim of the question.

stevenmack wrote:

This seems relevant, and well worth a read...
misogyny-sexism-and-why-rps-isnt-shutting-up

Excellent article. I loved this part. So true.

Jessica Chobot is described as “daringly beautiful”, whatever the crapping f*ck that means. And the sum total of her achievements described are that she’s “proof that gamer girls are just as sexy we envision.” Jade Raymond is “The Canadian gaming beauty.” It’s language that would of course never be used when writing about men in tech. No man in the field is called “daringly handsome”. None is ever introduced based on their aesthetic appeal, but rather their personal achievements. This is the very patriarchy the article pretends to lament.

Meagan Marie did an update on her blog, counting the reasons she cosplays and addressing some of the issues people had with her - although no one here, just in general.

That is a most awesome follow-up post.

Definitely a great follow up post. I love how she takes each and every argument and carefully deconstructs it. Props to her.
On a side note, I was glad she mentioned the Mad Moxxi costume as a turn point, because I'd seen the pictures in her blog last week, and could not imagine any other reaction than the one she describes... *shake my head*
Here's hoping some people read this blog post and review their stance.

One thing that I wanted to, I don't know, just get out there.

I consider myself a pig. My wife considers me a pig. We even joke about it. I love the female form and will appreciate it. As my wife puts it, I can look at the menu, I just can't order from it.

When I look at an attractive woman, I don't think about what her hopes and dreams are or if she is a decent human being. I am just looking at her curves...essentially objectifying her. However, discretion and respect are key. I try not to be obvious about the way I look at someone. I have seen that done and even as a man, I am creeped out by it. I definitely don’t confront someone about my desires, lay my hands on someone or even address that they are attractive. Ideally, my objectification is merely for me and me alone to be aware of.

I guess I wanted to separate out the run-of-the-mill “I love looking at women” type of guy (who remains respectful) and the pieces of sh*t that have been mentioned in the various stories and blogs referenced in this thread. Guys that do lay hands on a woman without invitation are criminals who should be prosecuted. It is my sincere belief that this type of person is, at least, a future rapist. Guys that proposition women in a professional setting should be fired.

IMAGE(http://25.media.tumblr.com/bb2fb805f3f927b64538bbfc986ad3ee/tumblr_ml2nroww4s1qhzh02o1_500.jpg)

Nevin73 wrote:

One thing that I wanted to, I don't know, just get out there.

I consider myself a pig. My wife considers me a pig. We even joke about it. I love the female form and will appreciate it. As my wife puts it, I can look at the menu, I just can't order from it.

When I look at an attractive woman, I don't think about what her hopes and dreams are or if she is a decent human being. I am just looking at her curves...essentially objectifying her. However, discretion and respect are key. I try not to be obvious about the way I look at someone. I have seen that done and even as a man, I am creeped out by it. I definitely don’t confront someone about my desires, lay my hands on someone or even address that they are attractive. Ideally, my objectification is merely for me and me alone to be aware of.

I guess I wanted to separate out the run-of-the-mill “I love looking at women” type of guy (who remains respectful) and the pieces of sh*t that have been mentioned in the various stories and blogs referenced in this thread. Guys that do lay hands on a woman without invitation are criminals who should be prosecuted. It is my sincere belief that this type of person is, at least, a future rapist. Guys that proposition women in a professional setting should be fired.

To me that's a perfectly respectable way of looking at things. We're all sexual beings to some extent, and are turned on by different things by nature of our internal wiring. You're wired to appreciate the way someone looks. There's nothing wrong with being aware and accepting of who you are inside at any given moment. In fact I think that's an admirable quality.

You've hit on a truth behind this topic, IMO. It has nothing to do with our inner thoughts/world, which I think can be molded to an extent but are nearly impossible to control completely. (Aside - If you haven't tried meditation before, take a class or find someone who knows how. It's an enlightening experience in terms of how little control most people have over their inner selves.) It's about control of one's actions and respect for other people.

We should all honor each other in what we do. No one is going to be perfect at that. We all cross the line sometimes. However, an awareness of that means we can more easily set things right and continue treating others with the dignity that we wish for ourselves.

Nevin73 wrote:

I consider myself a pig. My wife considers me a pig. We even joke about it. I love the female form and will appreciate it. As my wife puts it, I can look at the menu, I just can't order from it.

I think that's entirely fair, so long as you're discreet. Women look just as much as men do anyway.

Tanglebones wrote:

awesome comic

Yes. I should print this out and send it to my Con manager and we should have it posted everywhere at the convention. Or at any convention really.

Getting back to the idea that the sexism isn't new, but calling attention to it is, I present an old 3dFX ad that surfaced on Reddit today:
IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/hxRcUxh.jpg)

Sexism aside, I like that for the concept that PC gamers are the cool kids and console gamers are the "nerds".

Tanglebones wrote:

Getting back to the idea that the sexism isn't new, but calling attention to it is, I present an old 3dFX ad that surfaced on Reddit today:
IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/hxRcUxh.jpg)

3DFX may not have been good at making competitive video cards or having competent management but they always excelled at making shocking ads.

The voodoo5 6000 was sweet.

Presumably.

I'm not clear on whether they're implying that PC gamers are more mature or that PC games are full of breasts.