Tired of Political Correctness

ESA, what part of "we're keeping the salty language" is confusing? If Ken shows up in his usual style, it shouldn't cramp him at all. While he does have the elocution of a well-educated sailor, he usually doesn't use gendered constructions when he wanders off into the deep end of the blue language.

Plus, they didn't suggest they were applying it to their guests -- only to themselves. So even if we were graced with a guest appearance by Samuel L. Jackson and he started using his favorite word (and you all know what that is), it wouldn't clip his wings either.

You seem like you're trying really hard to be pissed about something here, but you aren't articulating a reason for it. You're not hurt by this; it only helps others.

momgamer wrote:

So even if we were graced with a guest appearance by Samuel L. Jackson and he started using his favorite word (and you all know what that is), it wouldn't clip his wings either.

Is it "diaphanous?" I bet it is.

momgamer wrote:

You seem like you're trying really hard to be pissed about something here, but you aren't articulating a reason for it.

This spot-on assessment is the ultimate irony of the No More PC Crowd.

Gravey wrote:

It's like you never read the first seven pages of this thread. Or the post you quoted.

I read it, and the post I quoted.

And to the others assuming I was "hurt" about it, LOL. No, I was saddened by it.

My problem is that they had to go out of their way to announce the "why".

It came off completely soap boxy.

If the guys / gals wanted to implement change amongst themselves, then fine, do it. No explanation is required.

I say again, you guys amongst yourself made an agreement for your changes, no problem.

However, the small expository from each involved for the "why" was just condescending and conciliatory.

In my opinion, it came off as completely disingenuous and kowtowing...and I stand by that. It's just an opinion, a cheap 2 cents. That's all. I'm still allowed to have one aren't I? Or, is dissent from the popular opinion no longer allowed here?

Just curious, why all of a sudden was the impetus for this change after 300+ episodes? A PM from a GWJer? A notice that this site has probably more women, minorities and GLB than most game sites? (I find this as the site's STRENGTH btw. A moment of self recollection?

One shouldn't use the opportunity to spread awareness for fear that others might see it as disingenuous or condescending. Got it. Completely disagree given recent discussions, but I understand.

Personally, I'm impressed. I didn't even know it was possible to kowtow disingenuously whilst being condescendingly conciliatory. That sounds complicated.

Well, he is evil.

And completely, totally, eye-rollingly wrong. But that's just my 2 cents.

EvilShawnAndrich wrote:

Just curious, why all of a sudden was the impetus for this change after 300+ episodes? A PM from a GWJer? A notice that this site has probably more women, minorities and GLB than most game sites? (I find this as the site's STRENGTH btw. A moment of self recollection?

If diversity is valued then what is wrong with recognizing that some of your speech needs to change to protect that diversity?

And a public statement is warranted when you wish to shine a spotlight on the issue to evoke change throughout the members of the community. It's already been pointed out that a rather talented female member has stopped contributing because of views such as yours... and that's just one who was bold enough to post about it.

muttonchop wrote:

Personally, I'm impressed. I didn't even know it was possible to kowtow disingenuously whilst being condescendingly conciliatory. That sounds complicated.

What happened? Am I watching olympic figure skating?

SCOTT:Ohh, that should've been a triple kowtow, but he only got a double; how disingenuous. They're going to take a hit in the community for that.

TRACY:This is a very complicated routine, Scott. He's going to have a hard time unless he figures out how to conciliate and condescend at the same time.

Taking the extra time to publicly acknowledge error and expressing how you plan to change is part of the 'respecting your fellow human' that's been much discussed earlier in this thread. It's an act of humility and acknowledgement that goes that extra bit further than simply having a private discussion and decision to change going forward, that extra bit really can make an emotional difference to those affected when it's sincere (which you then demonstrate in your future actions).

RoughneckGeek wrote:

It's already been pointed out that a rather talented female member has stopped contributing because of views such as yours... and that's just one who was bold enough to post about it.

First of all, I respect your disagreement with my opinion.

I was going to save this for my 1000th post, but hate to break it to you, DUN DUN DUN...I AM A WOMAN, LOL, and yes biologically born that way.

I've dealt with all the crap the world pours on us especially growing up with all brothers and being a tomboy and sharing many of my brothers (stereotypical guy interests) from DJ'ing, mixed martial arts, to videogames. I've also gone the other extreme and have professionally modeled for over 2 years with one of the most exclusive agencies and like reading stereotypical romance novels. So if I genuinely bump into an asshat or a sexist, I'll let them know myself. No need for any knights in shining armor. To think anything otherwise is insulting to me.

Over the years, I and my brothers have gotten a good laugh when others see I can build a PC from the ground up, put an engine together, then turn around and walk a runway. I'll go on cursing like a sailor with a wink and a smile with my "balls" of adamantium

So as for the other woman leaving, that's her personal choice. I'm always sorry to see a member of the community make that decision.

I've lurked these forum for years and have listened to the podcast from about #75 or so and what is abundantly clear is that no one involved in the podcast is sexist, racist, gender biased, you name it.

And for somehow this change transcends them to further, "respect your fellow human" is utterly ridiculous.

So let me make this abundantly clear, as a woman, I was saddened by their disingenuous kowtowing (though well meaning).

Sorry boys, that's where I stand. If you disagree, good for you, the world won't end for you or I.

^^

Well, as women/men/trans/gay/straight/etc people aren't all homogeneous within their respective categories, I'm sure you'll understand that some members of those groups don't have your experience, or reactions. And if the podcasters want to recognize that and try to be sensitive to that, for perfectly good reasons, I trust don't have a problem with it.

I was molested by an older kid when I was 6*. I'm fine. It didn't mess me up terribly. I don't cringe at child molestation jokes. I may be the exception, maybe not. They don't hand out standard reactions to sh*t that we encounter in life. I'm still glad that people tend to be sensitive to the topic. Call that PC if you want. It's just being empathetic and sensitive to others. No one is forcing you to do the same.

*hey! never admitted that in public before. so... congrats, forum members?

*EDIT FOR MORE*
As for myself, my opposition to sexist bs and gendered insults has nothing to do with you. I'm not personally trying to protect your delicate ladyfeelings and frail female sensibilities. I care because the aforementioned bs comes from an awful place, an awful history, and an awful bunch of stuff that half of the humans on the planet tend to have to deal with, and seeks to keep those people down. It's invoked so casually because it's so ingrained in our culture and most cultures. And that's not me riding in like Gallahad. The same way I care about people being racist, though I'm white. I'm not trying to white-knight for non-white people. I just care because I give a sh*t. Because I'm human. That's all.

bombsfall wrote:

Well, as women/men/trans/gay/straight/etc people aren't all homogeneous within their respective categories, I'm sure you'll understand that some members of those groups don't have your experience, or reactions. And if the podcasters want to recognize that and try to be sensitive to that, for perfectly good reasons, I trust don't have a problem with it.

I was molested by an older kid when I was 6*. I'm fine. It didn't mess me up terribly. I don't cringe at child molestation jokes. I may be the exception, maybe not. They don't hand out standard reactions to sh*t that we encounter in life. I'm still glad that people tend to be sensitive to the topic. Call that PC if you want. It's just being empathetic and sensitive to others. No one is forcing you to do the same.

*hey! never admitted that in public before. so... congrats, forum members?

That's horrible. I'm glad you've been able to move past that.

That's pretty brave of you to share.

/tips my pretty hat

PS: If you ever need someone on your back to help kick someone's ass, I'm your girl *cough cough* metaphorically speaking of course

EvilShawnAndrich wrote:

That's pretty brave of you to share.

I feel weird posting that b/c didn't want to derail and make this a thanks-for-sharing thread. I'm just saying - not everyone is you, and that means sometimes (especially if you're part of a community and a leader in that community to boot) accommodating others. Especially if it's something silly like not using a handful of phrases. And no one other than you anonymous strangers and my wife knows what happened to me. Which goes to show that people are often dealing with stuff you'll never know about. Doesn't mean treating them with kid gloves or anything, just being cool about it.

Also thanks. If I found that kid I would probably be more worried about how he turned out. Sorry if I came off harsh. I wish text had a "not mad, just sayin'" setting.

RESUME THREAD.

EDIT* I am the king of making like 10 edits to posts right after I post them. Sorry, everyone.

bombsfall wrote:
EvilShawnAndrich wrote:

That's pretty brave of you to share.

I feel weird posting that b/c didn't want to derail and make this a thanks-for-sharing thread. I'm just saying - not everyone is you, and that means sometimes (especially if you're part of a community and a leader in that community to boot) accommodating others. Especially if it's something silly like not using a handful of phrases.

Also thanks. If I found that kid I would probably be more worried about how he turned out.

RESUME THREAD.

Meh, you're probably right.

Growing up with football player sized brothers who always treated me equally as "one of the guys" might have slanted my view.

But I was lucky enough to grow up with a very loving and supportive family who never discouraged my tomboy ways.

This has been both a blessing and curse. Most men are intimidated to even just come up and say "hi" when it's abundantly clear they want to, and some are scared off when I take the initiative and come up to them or crumble and lose their tongue/babble.

So my apologies in advance if I come off strong or a bitch. But as for men, be men with no apologies. 300+ episodes have already revealed who you are: kind, funny, respectful and kind bunch of people.

Is the goal really to be treated like "one of the guys"?

Is using offensive language part of being a man? What does "be men with no apologies" even mean?

SixteenBlue wrote:

Is the goal really to be treated like "one of the guys"?

Is using offensive language part of being a man? What does "be men with no apologies" even mean?

I see this escalating into an unwinnable stalemate.

Bottom line, I disagree with the changes they've made and their apparent need to explain their behavior.

A small quirky, funny, endearing quality of the podcast is being lost in my opinion to be politically correct.

Will I stop listening to the podcast? LOL, no. I will just miss the way it was.

It's just my opinion. One apparently not shared by many in this thread. And that's OK.

At least I've pitched in my 2 cents.

So I guess we can all respectfully agree to disagree.

In all honesty, I appreciate reading the viewpoint of a woman of privilege and seeing how it contrasts with other women's viewpoints that I've seen. I won't pretend to know your life ESA... far from it. However, based on what you've shared your viewpoint is understandable.

SixteenBlue wrote:

Is the goal really to be treated like "one of the guys"?

Is using offensive language part of being a man? What does "be men with no apologies" even mean?

I actually just read a really interesting essay that touched on that from The Border House - I'll try to find the link and edit it in, so you won't be the only edit king, Bombsfall - the gist was that there are two strong strands of feminism, equality feminism (treat women the same as men) and difference feminism (accentuate the positive differences between men and women, put more value on 'female strengths'). The essay wasn't positing one as better than the other, but saying that each had relevant points to make.

Edit: http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=10586&...

Tanglebones wrote:
SixteenBlue wrote:

Is the goal really to be treated like "one of the guys"?

Is using offensive language part of being a man? What does "be men with no apologies" even mean?

I actually just read a really interesting essay that touched on that from The Border House - I'll try to find the link and edit it in, so you won't be the only edit king, Bombsfall - the gist was that there are two strong strands of feminism, equality feminism (treat women the same as men) and difference feminism (accentuate the positive differences between men and women, put more value on 'female strengths'). The essay wasn't positing one as better than the other, but saying that each had relevant points to make.

Edit: http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=10586&...

Ideally those aren't actually mutually exclusive, but I was mostly getting at the guys part of that phrase. It's not really equal when you define how to be treated by just one gender.

EvilShawnAndrich wrote:
SixteenBlue wrote:

Is the goal really to be treated like "one of the guys"?

Is using offensive language part of being a man? What does "be men with no apologies" even mean?

I see this escalating into an unwinnable stalemate.

Bottom line, I disagree with the changes they've made and their apparent need to explain their behavior.

A small quirky, funny, endearing quality of the podcast is being lost in my opinion to be politically correct.

Will I stop listening to the podcast? LOL, no. I will just miss the way it was.

It's just my opinion. One apparently not shared by many in this thread. And that's OK.

At least I've pitched in my 2 cents.

So I guess we can all respectfully agree to disagree.

By the by, posting a strong, dissenting opinion and then peppering it with "just my two cents, not a big deal, agree to disagree" is the very definition of disingenuous. It's either important to you and worth discussing or it's not. You don't get to have it both ways if you want to be part of the discussion.

For the record, your opinions about my behaviour and motivations are wrong. Objectively wrong, since I've outlined the reasons and they have nothing to do with being politically correct. So you're calling me a liar, which isn't a matter of perspective, it's an accusation. If you truly stand by that and it's really "no big deal" then maybe stop repeating yourself or hey, I'd even accept an apology. I don't appreciate being told I'm lying or being disingenuous about something that's important to me and countless men and women in the gaming community.

I'm a real person sitting here reading what you have to say. I'm not a personality whose name you can appropriate for fun and drag through the mud because I dared mention something you don't like. This isn't just a fun debate with no consequences. Real people are affected by the words we use every single day and while that alone is a good enough reason to consider our language (which, again, doesn't even mean we won't say 'f*ck' anymore), there's a greater issue at play here. Gendered language is just the tip of the iceberg.

Certis wrote:

hey, I'd even accept an apology.

Fair enough.

My apologies.

EvilShawnAndrich wrote:

So let me make this abundantly clear, as a woman, I was saddened by their disingenuous kowtowing (though well meaning).

It doesn't matter that you, as a woman, think their language in prior shows was fine because they're not changing to suit you, or me, or anyone else who may be listening. They're changing because they themselves want to change. The only thing they're kowtowing to is their own conscience.

Stengah wrote:
EvilShawnAndrich wrote:

So let me make this abundantly clear, as a woman, I was saddened by their disingenuous kowtowing (though well meaning).

It doesn't matter that you, as a woman, think their language in prior shows was fine because they're not changing to suit you, or me, or anyone else who may be listening. They're changing because they themselves want to change. The only thing they're kowtowing to is their own conscience.

For real. I didn't stop using "f*g" as a adverb/adjective/glottal stop because I was trying to white knight gay people. (Except you Rubb Ed. I was totally white knighting for you. CALL ME.) I stopped using it because as I got to know gay people, I came to understand I don't exist in a vacuum, and that it was kinda messed up to use a slur as a descriptor for anything I didn't like. I made that decision about me and my conscience. End of.

SixteenBlue wrote:

Is the goal really to be treated like "one of the guys"?

Is using offensive language part of being a man? What does "be men with no apologies" even mean?

Yeah, what would that mean? What is the idealized endpoint of that, assuming it is not "I should be able to say whatever I want with no repercussions"?

And why is being conscious of the language you use disingenuous kowtowing to political correctness? Moreover, why is a single person making that decision, and not forcing anyone else to do so apparently egregious cowardice?

I'll be honest, I don't listen to the podcast regularly, but is that much being stripped from the banter by their own efforts to be more mindful of the words they use? Were games rated on a scale of Certis Is Awesomes that cannot possibly be replicated?

It feels like a lot of the criticism of this move has been coming from a really defensive place, as if by the podcast making this change, they are admonishing or attempting to force others into doing the same.

The only thing that really gets under my skin about gaming podcasts in general (not specifically the CC) is when someone compares a series, genre, or game to an abusive relationship. I understand what you're trying to convey, but no.

Also too much political talk has turned me off from a podcast or two. Kind of crazy because I subscribe to all kinds of politics and news podcasts, but it's always just super dissonant in context, and it's never a real discussion.

NormanTheIntern wrote:

The only thing that really gets under my skin about gaming podcasts in general (not specifically the CC) is when someone compares a series, genre, or game to an abusive relationship. I understand what you're trying to convey, but no.

Also too much political talk has turned me off from a podcast or two. Kind of crazy because I subscribe to all kinds of politics and news podcasts, but it's always just super dissonant in context, and it's never a real discussion.

Oh absolutely. A sports podcast I listen to started in on Maggie T, and I immediately hit the FF button. I'm completely against the very notion that politics and sports cannot mix (they obviously have, many, many, many times), but that's not what I'm looking for.

Cool story bro time:

So I'm in an office the other day and a group of guys and gals are just standing around chatting. Couple of the guys and I started having a sidebar about sports, and one of the girls turns to another and says something along the lines of "hey, the army guys are off duty tonight, we should go get drunk and..." well basically the rest was not for polite conversation.

Our sidebar stops and we just kind of look uncomfortably at each other. After a moment it passes and everyone breaks up and goes back to work. Now the guys I was talking to I'm pretty tight with, and I know they don't mind language, or sexual jokes, etc... but I realized that the reason we felt awkward was because a woman was making the remarks, and the office culture in our country has changed to the point where a woman can get away with remarks like that but we as guys are afraid to join in because of what could happen.

Now that, my friends, is what makes me sad.

bandit0013 wrote:

Cool story bro time:

So I'm in an office the other day and a group of guys and gals are just standing around chatting. Couple of the guys and I started having a sidebar about sports, and one of the girls turns to another and says something along the lines of "hey, the army guys are off duty tonight, we should go get drunk and..." well basically the rest was not for polite conversation.

Our sidebar stops and we just kind of look uncomfortably at each other. After a moment it passes and everyone breaks up and goes back to work. Now the guys I was talking to I'm pretty tight with, and I know they don't mind language, or sexual jokes, etc... but I realized that the reason we felt awkward was because a woman was making the remarks, and the office culture in our country has changed to the point where a woman can get away with remarks like that but we as guys are afraid to join in because of what could happen.

Now that, my friends, is what makes me sad.

If a co-worker is making sexual comments at the office which make you uncomfortable, you should take it up with that person and/or your HR department, because

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/3GFc3zQ.png)

She might get away with it if you don't report it.

I may be speaking out of turn but I believe what Bandit is saying is that he wasn't offended or made uncomfortable by what his female coworker was saying, but rather saddened that he or his male coworkers felt unsafe in making an in kind reply for fear of a HR charge.