Tired of Political Correctness

The Conformist wrote:

Would the same fuss be an issue if she were a man?

Why would Obama even think to mention it if she were a man?

Men often introduce or identify the female professional peers they admire as "lovely" or the "beautiful and talented", etc. (You see this a lot with, say, Felicia Day, or any other woman in a male-dominated field, tbh.) It's meant to be a compliment, but because the visual evaluation is apropos of nothing, the "compliment" serves only to distract from the woman's accomplishments.

If you're a man having trouble seeing why these compliments are a problem in a professional setting, imagine if your female peers constantly referred to you as the "balding and talented programmer" or as "intelligent yet brown-haired salesperson". See how the visual evaluation distracts from the actual compliment? Why is it relevant to mention that you are balding, or brown-haired? Answer: It isn't. Nor is it relevant to mention that your female co-worker is "lovely" or "beautiful and talented", etc.

The Conformist wrote:

Would the same fuss be an issue if she were a man?

No, it would be a different fuss, because it is remarkable for a straight man to mention another man's attractiveness.

The fact that it's not remarkable to describe a woman that way is precisely the problem.

It may be rare when is done to a man but that wouldn't make it any better.

Back in 2007 Biden caused a fuss when he said:

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," Biden said. "I mean, that's a storybook, man."

It wasn't appropriate then either.

Jonman wrote:
The Conformist wrote:

Would the same fuss be an issue if she were a man?

No, it would be a different fuss, because it is remarkable for a straight man to mention another man's attractiveness.

The fact that it's not remarkable to describe a woman that way is precisely the problem.

Sage words from the always lovely Jonman.

Didn't Obama get into some heat when at a town hall debate he said Thanks Darlin' or Thanks Sweatheart to a female questioner?

As for the statements about the California AG, even Fox and Friends is calling the comments harmless. And it is getting much more into what could be seen as pedantic political sensitivity or political correctness. No harm intended, genuine compliment, old friend.

That seems to be edging into the territory of women who get offended that I might hold a door open for them.

Rahmen wrote:

It may be rare when is done to a man but that wouldn't make it any better.

Back in 2007 Biden caused a fuss when he said:

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," Biden said. "I mean, that's a storybook, man."

It wasn't appropriate then either.

Well that's a much more complicated statement and is actually referring to his looks in a completely different context. Almost apples and oranges, to be honest.

Edit: Wait, "even fox and friends aren't offended" is some kind of guage? Really?

I think the best juxtaposition of gender in this situation is what is happening to John Hamm right now. He's an actor on the show Mad Men. Due to idiocy/costuming, someone got some shots of him that make it fairly plain he's, well..., packing.

Since then there has been a bunch of people discussing his nethers and their scale. There's even a fansite to speculating about his equipment. He's quite upset about it.

This is what every actress gets every single day. But somehow it's perfectly okay for his costar's breasts to be considered her best talent, and everyone on the planet can discuss them instead of her amazing performances and it's not only okay, but lauded. But he, the handsome actor, can't somehow be discussed openly in that fashion without offending him.

It's not really that different. Biden obviously meant nothing bad by this either. In his eyes he was complimenting Obama.

I will agree that Obama's comment was made in a more casual setting but the woman has plenty of positive, earned credentials that can be sufficient for an introduction.

Rahmen wrote:

It's not really that different. Biden obviously meant nothing bad by this either. In his eyes he was complimenting Obama.

I will agree that Obama's comment was made in a more casual setting but the woman has plenty of positive, earned credentials that can be sufficient for an introduction.

Notice the comma between storybook and man. I don't think his point was "Obama is a great man."

I think (and could be wrong since I have no other context) he was talking more about race relations and not Obama specifically.

I think I might start referring to all of my male co-workers as "beautiful and talented". It would cause just the right amount of discomfort that I like to promote in the office.

SixteenBlue wrote:
Rahmen wrote:

It's not really that different. Biden obviously meant nothing bad by this either. In his eyes he was complimenting Obama.

I will agree that Obama's comment was made in a more casual setting but the woman has plenty of positive, earned credentials that can be sufficient for an introduction.

Notice the comma between storybook and man. I don't think his point was "Obama is a great man."

I think (and could be wrong since I have no other context) he was talking more about race relations and not Obama specifically.

I didn't intend this as distraction from the central point but here's more context on the Biden quote http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/...

My point is more that when the compliment (because also obviously in both cases it was meant that way) can detract from the message that the person is worthy on merit alone.

(edit for grammar)

momgamer wrote:

I think the best juxtaposition of gender in this situation is what is happening to John Hamm right now. He's an actor on the show Mad Men. Due to idiocy/costuming, someone got some shots of him that make it fairly plain he's, well..., packing.

Since then there has been a bunch of people discussing his nethers and their scale. There's even a fansite to speculating about his equipment. He's quite upset about it.

This is what every actress gets every single day. But somehow it's perfectly okay for his costar's breasts to be considered her best talent, and everyone on the planet can discuss them instead of her amazing performances and it's not only okay, but lauded. But he, the handsome actor, can't somehow be discussed openly in that fashion without offending him.

It's pretty ridiculous at this point, also I would give odds to Hendricks in a drama-off.

While applying the same disrespectful/trivializing language to men is equaling things out, it's not the equality we should all be aiming for.

As for the John Hamm situtation. I don't blame him for being upset about, and while I can understand the satisfaction in having a man be upset at receiving the same treatment women have to deal with every day, the goal is to progress to the point where no one have to deal with it, not to have the man stop complaining and live with it. Just for clarification's sake, I don't think for a second that that was what you were saying, momgamer, but it's a sentiment I have seen from people not on GWJ. I'm just using the example you provided as a jumping off point to say that when trying to make thing equal between multiple groups, we should be elevating the less privileged to the same level as the most privileged, not start treating all the groups as poorly as we treat the less privileged. I.e. don't tell men to suck it up and deal with the objectification that women have to constantly deal with, but stop objectifying everyone.

Nevin73 wrote:

I think I might start referring to all of my male co-workers as "beautiful and talented". It would cause just the right amount of discomfort that I like to promote in the office.

Is this just you still being bitter that Flogging Fridays was not a big hit?

iaintgotnopants wrote:
The Conformist wrote:

Would the same fuss be an issue if she were a man?

Successful men aren't constantly accused of getting where they are because of their looks.

Speak for yourself, sir!

KingGorilla wrote:
Nevin73 wrote:

I think I might start referring to all of my male co-workers as "beautiful and talented". It would cause just the right amount of discomfort that I like to promote in the office.

Is this just you still being bitter that Flogging Fridays was not a big hit?

It was Felching Fridays, actually. And no, they weren't.

KingGorilla wrote:

That seems to be edging into the territory of women who get offended that I might hold a door open for them.

I've had this happen to me at work. I point out that if I'm first to a door, I hold it for *everyone*. That's how I was raised and it's nearly impossible to break the habit. Then there's a mild embarrassment and life goes on.

I have mixed feelings on holding doors. I hold the doors for dozens of customers a day after picking them up and bringing them to my office.

Graciousness is underrated. Say thanks, be polite, move on. Don't be offended if someone got to the door first. Don't take it personally if someone takes the reigns because they're trying to avoid a "no YOU first" back and forth. Some people are bad at this.

Some guys won't allow it and try to reach around me to grab for the door I'm leaning against even when I've clearly gotten there first. Don't make it awkward, sir. Just go inside already it's raining. Please don't insist. Women rarely do this. However, it's such a quick exchange that then and there isn't really the time to debate bad habits of social inequality. It distracts from the task at hand. My only hope is that those people happen to gaze upon comments like this and learn something.

However if they manage to beat me to the door I will thank them and go on in. With strangers the best course of action is polite neutrality.

I hold the door if I get to it first, regardless of whether it's a man or a woman. And if someone holds a door for me, whether they're a man or a woman, I smile and thank them because it was a nice thing for them to do.

Seems pretty simple to me.

Farscry wrote:

I hold the door if I get to it first, regardless of whether it's a man or a woman. And if someone holds a door for me, whether they're a man or a woman, I smile and thank them because it was a nice thing for them to do.

Seems pretty simple to me. :)

Pig.

It always seems weird to let women get on elevators first - you're basically saying "go ahead and test out the cable first".

Also if the elevator's full and I'm in the front, I'm out first regardless.

Farscry wrote:

I hold the door if I get to it first, regardless of whether it's a man or a woman. And if someone holds a door for me, whether they're a man or a woman, I smile and thank them because it was a nice thing for them to do.

Seems pretty simple to me. :)

That's what I go with.

obirano wrote:
Farscry wrote:

I hold the door if I get to it first, regardless of whether it's a man or a woman. And if someone holds a door for me, whether they're a man or a woman, I smile and thank them because it was a nice thing for them to do.

Seems pretty simple to me. :)

That's what I go with.

Yep, just seems like that is basic human decency.

NormanTheIntern wrote:

It always seems weird to let women get on elevators first - you're basically saying "go ahead and test out the cable first".

Also if the elevator's full and I'm in the front, I'm out first regardless.

Someone once told me thats where that whole custom got started... they would have women and chidren go in front to test for booby traps. Not sure how accurate that is, but every time i open a door i remember that.

Relevant:
Study: Voters Judge Female Politicians Based on Their Appearance -- But Not How You'd Expect

Much of the commentary included in the survey is so out-there that it feels like it could be made up ("Smith unfortunately sported a heavy layer of foundation and powder that had settled into her forehead lines, creating an unflattering look for an otherwise pretty woman, along with her famous fake, tacky nails."). But, in fact, it was based on media coverage of the 2012 election.

You'd probably think that unflattering appearance-based coverage would hurt a candidate's chances and complimentary remarks about her appearance would help, but, as the study shows, that is hardly the case. A neutral comment about a female contender's appearance ("she wore a purple Vera Wang dress and blue heels") and a positive one ("the Vera Wang dress looked fabulous on her, the heels even better") both hurt her odds for election. After reading this, voters perceived her as less in touch, less likable, less confident, and--even though these stories had nothing to do with her political positions or prowess--less qualified. Independents, whose support is crucial in the outcome of an election, were most influenced by descriptions of a politician's appearance.

bandit0013 wrote:
Farscry wrote:

I hold the door if I get to it first, regardless of whether it's a man or a woman. And if someone holds a door for me, whether they're a man or a woman, I smile and thank them because it was a nice thing for them to do.

Seems pretty simple to me. :)

Pig.

:)

Naw, he's just a passive aggressive bastard.

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/IT2aZ.jpg)

NormanTheIntern wrote:

It always seems weird to let women get on elevators first - you're basically saying "go ahead and test out the cable first".

Nah, think about it - that's been done since elevators came into use, and for decades, they had people in them continuously. And women were still offered the first access.

It's just standard doorway etiquette. The odds of dying in an elevator accident are about one in 20 million, unless you're a building maintenance person, in which case, it's about one in 10 million. Odds of an elevator related visit to the emergency room? About one in 29,000. Odds of a car related visit to the emergency room? One in 74. (All stats given are yearly.)

There have only been two incidents of elevator free-fall in modern times, one in the 1940's after a B-25 hit the Empire State Building, and the other in the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001. A woman survived the first one, a fall of 75 stories, as the elevator cable had coiled below the car as it failed and cushioned the fall.

bandit0013 wrote:
Farscry wrote:

I hold the door if I get to it first, regardless of whether it's a man or a woman. And if someone holds a door for me, whether they're a man or a woman, I smile and thank them because it was a nice thing for them to do.

Seems pretty simple to me. :)

Pig.

:)

Hah! Well played.

Certis wrote:

We've had enough replies along these lines both on Twitter, the forums and email it's worth a reply. I don't normally engage in P&C discussions since I have to police them, but since it's about the show I'll make an exception. Hope you like bullet points! These are more of a catch-all than addressing any particular person.

I can't believe you're apologizing! - We didn't apologize. Listen to what I said in the show again. Maybe you feel so defensive about it you think there should have been an apology in there so you mentally inserted it.

Just be yourself! - We are. That's exactly why we're curtailing this particular line of language. Do you think when we stop recording we slick our hair back, paste on our goatees and run around town slapping women on the ass? To put it in plain terms, I can't tell you that you're acting like a woman when you're doing something weak and then look my wife if in the eye and tell her she's strong without a subtext of "but never as strong as I am, since I'm a man." In many ways my wife is stronger than I'll ever be. I try to live an honest life.

Where do we draw the line? - It's up to you, I wasn't making any edicts. Personally, I've decided that words and phrases that suggest the people I love are lesser than me because they don't have dicks are factually wrong. I lose nothing in making the distinction and I create a reality where maybe I make someone's day a little less sh*tty.

You're just doing this to be politically correct! - I don't give a f*ck about political correctness. Addressing this small thing publicly does nothing but alienate a portion of our predominantly male audience and generate offended missives like this one. We're not trying to win downloads here.

I like it because it's just friends talking! Keep the salty language! - We are. I've already corrected a number of emails thanking us for promising not to swear any more. We didn't promise that. We'll still curse and that will continue to be a problem for people with kids in the car. What we won't do is say things that casually insult half the planet because we're too lazy to think of something more clever.

But you say "don't be a dick!" or "man up!" all the time. Double standard! - That's why I addressed both on the show. Phrases like "man up" don't have the same charge because they're complimentary toward my gender. I point them out as something we're also going to curtail because one informs the other. I can't say man = strong without suggesting women = weak so both forms have to go.

Trying to create an equivalence between "grow up" and calling someone a "pussy" is a false dichotomy. It weakens your point and shows me just what a poor job you're doing imagining what it's like for people who aren't you. Men and the young don't have a society telling them they're weak, emotional, sub-humans every day simply because of which chromosome they were born with.

I'll finish with a question of my own and I hope people who take issue with this small thing can answer it honestly and without a thousand words of rationalizations.

What are you actually afraid you'll lose in this equation?

If you had agreed in advance to change amongst yourselves and just implementing the change instead of going out of you way to announce it with your reasoning sounded utterly disingenuous.

What are you going to to do if potty mouthed Ken Levine comes back on? Ask him to stop? Censor him?

Sorry but I don't buy it for one second and was actually saddened by it.

You guys have 300 plus podcasts who show who you really are. Anyone with half a brain will quickly realize that none of you are sexist, racist, etc. if they can't deal with salty language in pure jest amongst a conversation amongst friends, then it's their problem not yours.

It's like you never read the first seven pages of this thread. Or the post you quoted.