Feminism/Sexism and Gaming/Geek/Popular culture Catch All

Hypatian wrote:

And: If anybody can suggest to me a way to say all of this without making people get all defensive and then invoking my Wall Of Text +6, I would very much appreciate it.

Just say "sheeit, bitchez be frontin'".

Stan: Dude, I don't get it.

Kyle: I don't get it either.

Stan: [comes to a certain realization] Wait a minute. That's it! I don't get it.

Kyle: ...Huh?

Stan: Don't you see, Kyle? I don't get it! [smiles, then walks up to Token]
Token, I get it now. I don't get it. I've been trying to say that I understand how you feel, but, I'll never understand. I'll never really get how it feels for a black person to have somebody use the N word. I don't get it.

Token: Now you get it, Stan. [smiles]

Stan: [smiles] Yeah. I totally don't get it!

Token: Thanks, dude.

South Park has done a lot of things, but I thought that episode was possibly the spot on of all their episodes.

Of course, since it's South Park, I'm sure it's been grossly misunderstood.

MrDeVil909 wrote:

Yeah, 'check your privilege' doesn't get used, in this thread at least, as an 'I win' button. It isn't intended to shut down discussion, but encourage a little bit of introspection. At least as I understand it.

Yes, GWJ is not Tumblr. Thank God. Christ, I consider myself a pretty forward, progressive person and the social justice mobs on Tumblr are the most pretentious, self-satisfied echo-chambers of sanctimony I've ever seen. Ever.

Personally, I've started to move away from using "privilege", because it shuts down discussion so quickly, just the same as "racist" often does. Of course, the problem with doing this is conceding further ground in conversation until you're left with almost no ground to speak from, but since i'm not there yet, i'll manage.

Hypatian wrote:

That's the misunderstanding: "check your privilege" does not mean "wtf do you know about girls" (and I'm assuming an implied "gtfo"). It means "take a second look at where you are coming from, and where other people are coming from, and make sure you're reading things right". It is not "check your privilege at the door, don't bring that in here", it is "double check your assumptions for the bias of privilege."

It is not a rejection. It is an exhortation to argue in the best possible way.

Then, in the spirit of mutual understanding and whatnot, let me explain to you how things came off to me:

Momgamer (in the middle of a post about several other things): "Men don't have other people's actions influence future assessments of them in a group, women have to cope with that."

Me: "That's not true. I have to deal with being stereotyped as a bro or an 'outsider' because I don't conform to things, and there is a latent rejection/dismissal/hostility due to the actions of those who have come before me."

Several other people: "How dare you say your experiences are equal to the sexism in gaming women have to face. That is insulting. You are completely dismissing the things others go through, which you will never understand, by doing that."

Me: "I didn't actually do that."

People who invoked the word 'privilege': "Well, it's terrible of you to assume you have any inkling of how the lives of people who are not you go. Anyway, I will now infer that I am in a better position to define your perspective, life experiences, and thoughts than you are, and tell you that your life and experiences are completely coloring your behavior here. Also, let me repeat it's very wrong to do exactly what I just did, and you should really stop doing that."

Hopefully this sums up my frustration.

edit: I don't have a particular problem with the word privilege. It's really the best and possibly only single word to describe the situation. However, I have a very large problem with how it seems to be the go to infallible circular argument when used wrongly: "Your privilege is coloring your behavior, and you don't even know what your privilege is, because that's how privilege works! So you can't possibly say anything against what I have now supposed." And, in the end, the idea of privilege is really a supposition. It's an extremely likely supposition, but that is still what it is. The supposition is not "you're male, so I suppose you have been treated better in both the large and small scale by society," it's "you're male, so you have a degree of understanding that only someone else can validate by their supposition."

When misused, it's pretty much the equivalent of the "God works in mysterious ways" argument. It's just a finisher. It works every time, and can be invoked in a completely irrational way as a tool to completely invalidate anything someone says without actually having to make room for what that person argues, what they might understand, or what they've experienced in their own lifetime.

Bloo Driver wrote:

People who invoked the word 'privilege': "Well, it's terrible of you to assume you have any inkling of how the lives of people who are not you go. Anyway, I will now infer that I am in a better position to define your perspective, life experiences, and thoughts than you are, and tell you that your life and experiences are completely coloring your behavior here. Also, let me repeat it's very wrong to do exactly what I just did, and you should really stop doing that."

Hopefully this sums up my frustration.

Wow, talk about misunderstanding. Nobody said a single word about your feelings regarding YOUR experiences. YOU may very well have experienced rejection from "geeks" over your appearance, and nobody has implied otherwise.

The supposition is not "you're male, so I suppose you have been treated better in both the large and small scale by society," it's "you're male, so you have a degree of understanding that only someone else can validate by their supposition."

No, it's actually "You are not a woman, so comparing your own experiences to that of a woman with respect to discrimination when YOUR source of discrimination is completely different is disingenuous."

That's it. Really.

Nobody is saying you've never been dismissed because of your appearance or because of your height or whatever.

Valmorian wrote:
Bloo Driver wrote:

People who invoked the word 'privilege': "Well, it's terrible of you to assume you have any inkling of how the lives of people who are not you go. Anyway, I will now infer that I am in a better position to define your perspective, life experiences, and thoughts than you are, and tell you that your life and experiences are completely coloring your behavior here. Also, let me repeat it's very wrong to do exactly what I just did, and you should really stop doing that."

Hopefully this sums up my frustration.

Wow, talk about misunderstanding. Nobody said a single word about your feelings regarding YOUR experiences. YOU may very well have experienced rejection from "geeks" over your appearance, and nobody has implied otherwise.

Boy, here we go again. The above is not stating anyone said I didn't.

You know what, let's leave well enough alone. For whatever worthless thing "well enough" is at this point. At this point it seems the lack of actual reading is almost willful.

Bloo Driver wrote:

Anyway, I will now infer that I am in a better position to define your perspective, life experiences, and thoughts than you are, and tell you that your life and experiences are completely coloring your behavior here.

Boy, here we go again. The above is not stating anyone said I didn't.

I can't see any other way to take that. I have said nothing about your life and experiences other than to say they are not comparable to that of something you are not. That's not controversial and certainly not worthy of the constant " At this point it seems the lack of actual reading is almost willful." snide remarks. I'm not "wilfully" misunderstanding you.

MrDeVil909 wrote:

Yeah, 'check your privilege' doesn't get used, in this thread at least, as an 'I win' button. It isn't intended to shut down discussion, but encourage a little bit of introspection. At least as I understand it.

Lucky for me when I say 'check your privilege', there's a good chance I'm coming from that same privileged position. I'm a white male from a reasonably well-off family. So if someone is taking offence to my using that term, I can point out that I'm in the same position and I need to check my privilege constantly as well. It does limit my input into discussions with women and people of color regarding their experiences with respect to sexism and racism...

...but that's a GOOD thing.

As a white male I am very used to having my opinions treated with respect ALL THE TIME. Maybe not pretending to know I have any idea what it's like to grow up with them questioned constantly is a good idea? One of my favorite lists of white privilege is this one I found while browsing around:

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/m...

I seem to remember there's one for male privilege but haven't been able to find it easily..

EDIT: Here is one:

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-mal...

Mystic Violet wrote:

Stan: Dude, I don't get it.

Kyle: I don't get it either.

Stan: [comes to a certain realization] Wait a minute. That's it! I don't get it.

Kyle: ...Huh?

Stan: Don't you see, Kyle? I don't get it! [smiles, then walks up to Token]
Token, I get it now. I don't get it. I've been trying to say that I understand how you feel, but, I'll never understand. I'll never really get how it feels for a black person to have somebody use the N word. I don't get it.

Token: Now you get it, Stan. [smiles]

Stan: [smiles] Yeah. I totally don't get it!

Token: Thanks, dude.

Matt and Trey are so wise. This is also rather why I get a bit uppity over the segment of "everyone is the same" folks.

The American Office also had a good episode on harassment, prejudice, and all that. It went into a good portion about why neutrality and color blind or gender blind policies and attitudes are ineffective and dishonest.

Garden Ninja wrote:

I don't see where you actually disagree. I didn't say that the dude wasn't still a man, and I didn't touch on the example of "Perfectly fits the stereotype, but is a girl". That isn't even what I was talking about. I did say that those bits were critical pieces, and that it was a sliver (as in tiny) of shared experience.

Frequency: "This one time at that one store" vs "Everyday, everywhere I go"
Magnitude: "He's probably only here for Call of Duty" (Not a "gamer" but still plays some games) vs "She is obviously here for her boyfriend / son / whatever" (Couldn't possibly be a gamer herself)
Reasoning: "He doesn't fit the stereotype" vs "She is a girl, even if she otherwise fits the stereotype"

Reiterating that those things are critical (like if you could place them on a scale, they would be separated by multiple orders of magnitude), what isn't being accounted for in that equation?

Watching this from the sidelines, I see some people emphatically restating some version of "but it's not the same!" which (again from the sidelines) appears to be a bit of a straw man, since I don't think anybody ever tried to say that something was the same.

Humans are complex, but they are not unfathomable. And although it's certainly true that I will never know "what it's like" to be a woman, I can establish reference points from my own experiences and use my brain to extrapolate how they relate to other people's experiences.

Allowing for this kind of extrapolation is actually a prerequisite to even doing anything about sexism. If I as a human am just outright incapable of conceptualizing the effects my behavior will have on others (because such effects are so foreign to my experience), I will be equally incapable of conceptualizing why I must alter my behavior.

edit: eh, looks like the conversation has concluded.

Mystic Violet wrote:

South Park

I'm not the hugest South Park fan when they get lecturey, but sometimes they find the nail and brain it. Like Cartman's rant about Family Guy.

MrDeVil909 wrote:

Yeah, 'check your privilege' doesn't get used, in this thread at least, as an 'I win' button. It isn't intended to shut down discussion, but encourage a little bit of introspection. At least as I understand it.

With all due respect, I disagree -so vehemently that I consider this statement horse apples.

I've used it, it's been used on me, and hypatian and Valmorian just used it on bloo specifically to shut down discourse by dismissing argument. Whether we all intended to use it in that manner or not is immaterial; that, after all, is the nature of privilege.

Seth wrote:
MrDeVil909 wrote:

Yeah, 'check your privilege' doesn't get used, in this thread at least, as an 'I win' button. It isn't intended to shut down discussion, but encourage a little bit of introspection. At least as I understand it.

With all due respect, I disagree -so vehemently that I consider this statement horse apples.

I've used it, it's been used on me, and hypatian and Valmorian just used it on bloo specifically to shut down discourse by dismissing argument. Whether we all intended to use it in that manner or not is immaterial; that, after all, is the nature of privilege.

Oddly enough, the statement that what applies to you might not apply to other people (in reference to your use of the phrase, in this case), is still true. Just because you have used it that way does not in any way mean others are using it that way.

Suffice to say, I disagree. I thought Hypatian used it quite well.

Jolly Bill wrote:

Suffice to say, I disagree. I thought Hypatian used it quite well.

Which is fair -- I don't think he did. And when I used it back on page I-don't-care-to-check, I thought I used it quite well.

The issue -- as Bloo pointed out...6 times now? Maybe 7? Is that it was used dismissively and (from my perspective anyway) as a result of failing to grasp his point on such a basic level that it seemed intentional.

*she.

Like many arenas in life, I'm taking a break from this thread even though I have strong feelings and relevant personal experience, because I don't want to get into arguments with guys about my feelings if people are more interested in being right than learning about how other people feel and think.

Sorry, the environment in here is getting ugly. The irony is palpable. Have fun grinding each other into paste, y'all.

Seth wrote:
Jolly Bill wrote:

Suffice to say, I disagree. I thought Hypatian used it quite well.

Which is fair -- I don't think he did. And when I used it back on page I-don't-care-to-check, I thought I used it quite well.

The issue -- as Bloo pointed out...6 times now? Maybe 7? Is that it was used dismissively and (from my perspective anyway) as a result of failing to grasp his point on such a basic level that it seemed intentional.

It seems we've settled into a couple differing groups then, as I felt that while Bloo was well intentioned, and very kind in his words, he was also somewhat dismissive. Still, in EVERY case here, I think it came down to a choice of words and the tone of both people conveyed their true intentions: To show that they tried to understand the other people and sought to make the others understand a point they thought the others had missed.

At this point I hope we can all say that we're not offended by Bloo OR Hypatian (as they are both pretty awesome people), accept that there will be some inevitable misunderstandings due to the limitations of language, and go back to finding fun other things to talk about.

Seth wrote:

I've used it, it's been used on me, and hypatian and Valmorian just used it on bloo specifically to shut down discourse by dismissing argument.

If someone is arguing from a position of privilege and is failing to take it into account, it's not a matter of "shutting down discourse" to point it out. Even here I still see people insisting that they can extrapolate what, say, Momgamer experiences when being dismissed because she's a woman.

If a physicist who has studied for years to become a master at his profession came in here and said "this is what it's like to be a physicist", and then someone came along and mentioned "yeah, I know it must be a little like when I was in Biology in highschool", most people would rightfully think that reply was woefully misinformed. Point that same thing out when it comes to the experience of being a woman or ethnicity, and suddenly people who have no idea what it's like to be either of those things feel it's appropriate to compare their own discrimination to what women and people of color experience.

I've done it myself! I'm not claiming to be holier-than-thou, but it's important for me to remember that as a white male, my own experiences are necessarily going to be informed by my whole life as being a white male and enjoying all the privileges thereof.

Let's get it on track and talk about actual games...

The God of War Ascension achievement "Bros before hoes," where you beat a woman to a pulp, was recently patched out do to public outcry.

Plus, we have a new Lara Croft (Tomb Raider), probably the most iconic female video game character. There has to be some thoughts on the new characterization.

heavyfeul wrote:

Plus, we have a new Lara Croft (Tomb Raider), probably the most iconic female video game character. There has to be some thoughts on the new characterization.

On the latest GWJ I think I heard them talking about Lara breaking down and crying at one point in the game. That's great characterization and a "good thing", I think, but it immediately occurred to me.. ..if it had been a game with a male lead, how would the audience have reacted to him breaking down and crying over the stress?

The "check your privilege" without providing context or discussion can come across as glib and dismissive, if correct.

Valmorian wrote:
heavyfeul wrote:

Plus, we have a new Lara Croft (Tomb Raider), probably the most iconic female video game character. There has to be some thoughts on the new characterization.

On the latest GWJ I think I heard them talking about Lara breaking down and crying at one point in the game. That's great characterization and a "good thing", I think, but it immediately occurred to me.. ..if it had been a game with a male lead, how would the audience have reacted to him breaking down and crying over the stress?

I think men are less prone to crying than women, simply because it is less socially acceptable for men to display that sort of emotion. I have seen many adult women cry in my life, but I have only seen one male adult cry and he was recovering from a broken collar bone.

I think if the protagonist was a man, they would have went with impotent rage. That is usually how men deal with similar situations. If they did make a male character cry in that instance, it might have felt more powerful. But, since Lara is a woman it seemed appropriate and I did not think much about it.

Valmorian wrote:
Seth wrote:

I've used it, it's been used on me, and hypatian and Valmorian just used it on bloo specifically to shut down discourse by dismissing argument.

If someone is arguing from a position of privilege and is failing to take it into account, it's not a matter of "shutting down discourse" to point it out. Even here I still see people insisting that they can extrapolate what, say, Momgamer experiences when being dismissed because she's a woman.

My point is that, for those of us enjoying the station, everyone in this thread has shown an ability to take their position of privilege into account.

And if you see people insisting that they can extrapolate what, say, Momgamer experiences, then maybe you should read harder.

clover wrote:

L
Sorry, the environment in here is getting ugly. The irony is palpable. Have fun grinding each other into paste, y'all.

haha, I had to take a 20-ish page break after I was condemned to hell for supporting some british grocery store. I understand your point of view.

Or perhaps I'm extrapolating what you're experiencing, and should check my privilege at the door.

Seth wrote:

And if you see people insisting that they can extrapolate what, say, Momgamer experiences, then maybe you should read harder.

Um, Bloo was directly comparing having to justify his geek cred because of his appearance and dress as a response to Momgamer who specifically stated that men are don't have to justify their geek cred because of their gender.

I realize he also stated that it's minor and not as serious, etc..etc.. but maybe, just MAYBE, the proper response to hearing about discrimination against someone due to their gender isn't pointing out that you too have experienced a form of discrimination?

As I've also stated multiple times, I realize he didn't mean it in a bad way. It's just a totally unnecessary point.
Momgamer was specifically referring to being dismissed due to gender.

Seth wrote:
MrDeVil909 wrote:

Yeah, 'check your privilege' doesn't get used, in this thread at least, as an 'I win' button. It isn't intended to shut down discussion, but encourage a little bit of introspection. At least as I understand it.

With all due respect, I disagree -so vehemently that I consider this statement horse apples.

I've used it, it's been used on me, and hypatian and Valmorian just used it on bloo specifically to shut down discourse by dismissing argument. Whether we all intended to use it in that manner or not is immaterial; that, after all, is the nature of privilege.

Alright, so I'm not going to tell you to 'check your privilege.' Instead I'm going to ask what is making you so uncomfortable with what is intended as a simple call to examine one's perspective that you are reading intent that is expressly denied?

There's a literary word for what's happening here, but I can't think of it. What term describes when two groups claim to understand the other's point of view yet are so inescapably tied to making their own point that communication becomes impossible?

I mean, besides "The Internet."

If you start your shared experience with "this one time", you don't get it. Compared to the constant discrimination minorities face on a daily basis, one minor incident in a majority's life is just small moment of discomfort.

If you mentioned an experience but didn't intend to compare it to the experiences if minorities and are not trying to use the typical "but men/whites too!" retort then... Why bring it up?

That's like us having a discussion about race and while explaining prison numbers, war on drugs, being frisked once a month, driving while black, Hispanics showing papers, the N word, treatment of illegal immigrants, etc etc... A white dude comes up and says "One time a black cop pulled me over and had the nerve to call me a 'cracka'!"

Watch as the group of minorities face palm in unison.

I always stop to see if I've got a feminist cookie in my inventory to eat for the modifier to checks vs. privilege