Feminism/Sexism and Gaming/Geek/Popular culture Catch All

And most importantly, never, ever listen to CheezePavilion.

Things are settled, Mom's napping and I'm wrapping myself around another cup of what they euphemistically refer to as coffee here in an attempt to get the pint of blue mush between my ears warmed up to the point it can pass current.

There are plenty of things about the original topic that can still be discussed. NEED to be discussed. And there are plenty of things that can be done.

-- Look at your own words, and do your best to stop using the myriad subtle ways she (and all women) are ignored/discounted/marginalized in what you are saying. Larry gave you all a pretty good primer of the worst. Biggest of all, search out and kill with fire all the ways your words end up shaming or blaming the victim in all this. In my opinion, that's the biggest problem here.

-- Look at the issue without trying to pretend it's not there. Look at how far around the mulberry bush we've gone here to avoid a discussion of what can be done. It's not easy. You have to think about it from the other person's perspective. You have to realize and remember in the course of your interactions that everyone's experience is not the same as yours, and that doesn't make it wrong or lesser than yours. It's not just one post or thread; you need to think about all your posts in this context.

-- Avoid using gender-based stereotyping of all forms. And not just in this thread. I'm not perfect. I try very hard to never ever imply it but there are times when I see a point here that just makes me want to make that little Marge Simpson noise, roll my eyes and ruefully exclaim, "Men!" That doesn't have any place here, either, and if I ever do or have done so please let me know and I will start apologizing/mailing cookies immediately.

-- Give her the dignity of treating her ideas separate from the crime being committed against her, her agenda, or anything else. They're worth more than the fact that someone else hurt her. They have value in and of themselves, and should be given the chance to be part of the exchange of real ideas. If you want to discuss the content of her work, then find a topical thread, bring her ideas into it, and mix it up. I was dead serious about those LEGO threads. Gender issues with the various sets have been brought up a couple times over the years when people were trying to buy sets for their daughters/nieces, and an intelligent, measured discussion of her ideas would be a great addition to that thread.

Part of my anger comes from frustration. How many times does this have to be said!? We've got three or four threads running now that are variations on this theme. We say the same things over and over, but it's pretty rare for any leopard to ever change their spots.

edit - removed angry things. I'm sorry.

momgamer:

My reply to Roo is relevant to this topic and the issue that you and he raised vis a vis drowning out the important issues and Blaming the Victim. That said, it was somewhat tangential to Anita's efforts vis a vis female representation in games and the flak she got from it. My PM to you was purely about resolving our issues. I was alerted when you started responding to the attempts at conciliation in an even more hostile manner.

You can read the spoilered section if you want. It's specifically here so that it can be read in public.

Look at how far around the mulberry bush we've gone here to avoid a discussion of what can be done.

FWIW, my first foray into this topic was specifically centered around what could be done. I don't know how that could be characterized as avoidance.

In fact, the entire thing about LEGO is more along the same lines.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

Doesn't this attitude contribute to the issue? Sarkeesian's case is hardly isolated, yet it seems every time we cluck our tongues about the evils of the internet, and then reset while we wait for the next incident.

A P&C thread's lifeblood is an issue that has at least two sides. But the people who are "pro" harassment of Sarkeesian don't post here. What else is there to do but talk about something else once everyone has agreed that the reaction to her videos is vile?

I'll say again: Isn't our tendency to cluck, then shrug our shoulders and say "Whelp, done with that! 4chan, whaddyagunnado?" an aspect of the problem?

Funkenpants wrote:
Stengah wrote:

The LEGO video conversation is a derail from the topic of the thread, which is the reaction people had to Anita's Kickstarter.

Derails like that flow naturally from the topic, since everyone agrees that harassing someone or threatening to rape them is wrong. Where was the thread going to go?

I was going to quote momgamer's original post, but I'll quote this one instead.

Fact is we've all agreed 100% that the treatment meted out to Ms Sarkeesian is abominable, there is an agreement that people need to speak up against this sort of thing and until it happens again to our knowledge there's really not much else to say.

So until then it seems germane to talk about Lego, and Ms Sarkeesian's work which, until these events, I'd never heard of.

Sincere apologies if that seems to marginalise the issue, but what is the proposed solution?

*Edit*

Do I rename the thread 'Feminist Frequency Catch All and anti-troll alert?' Or something?

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

I'll say again: Isn't our tendency to cluck, then shrug our shoulders and say "Whelp, done with that! 4chan, whaddyagunnado?" an aspect of the problem?

Yes. This is precisely why most of my intent for my content in this topic is centered around action.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

I'll say again: Isn't our tendency to cluck, then shrug our shoulders and say "Whelp, done with that! 4chan, whaddyagunnado?" an aspect of the problem?

Can you suggest a method by which posting on a tiny corner of the internet is going to alter what happens on 4chan?

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

I'll say again: Isn't our tendency to cluck, then shrug our shoulders and say "Whelp, done with that! 4chan, whaddyagunnado?" an aspect of the problem?

And you're right, but nobody is saying that. Right now there doesn't seem to be any kind of organised attack on any cultural commentators or anything of the sort, I actually think it serves the topic and the events better to keep the thread bubbling with discussion about related issues.

I've already called out a troll on Facebook, but right now that's all I can do.

As a side note I would never have predicted that 4chan would turn me into a feminist at the age of 32.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

I'll say again: Isn't our tendency to cluck, then shrug our shoulders and say "Whelp, done with that! 4chan, whaddyagunnado?" an aspect of the problem?

Yep, and I'm guilty of that too.

Where to go with that particular problem? I post here mostly for interest but partly to lend my perspective, and I try to engage in real life when the opportunity presents itself, but there's always something in the blind spots.

I've been PMing with Larry, trying to come to some sort of detente. He has pointed out that he feels my using his posts as an example of misogyny is beyond the pale.

I concede that point in whole, and am making a public apology for that.

Well, it's an emotional topic, so things will get heated. I'm sure everyone understands.

So mom, serious question. Other than hang around discussing the meat of Ms Sarkeesian's videos, what should/could we being talking about right now?

MrDeVil909 wrote:

Well, it's an emotional topic, so things will get heated. I'm sure everyone understands.

So mom, serious question. Other than hang around discussing the meat of Ms Sarkeesian's videos, what should/could we being talking about right now?

../Looks up at link posted by me slightly earlier, reposts it:
I Can Be Just As Capable. Let Me.

We could discuss the meat of Ms Sarkeesian's videos on their own merits in the threads that are related to the topics. As I said, give her the dignity of weighing her ideas in the same scale as we use for others.

Here, how about a discussion of the various tactics that are used to marginalize people and perhaps practical discussion on how to avoid it? Many times, people aren't even aware they're doing it. It's so pervasive it can take very careful phrasing to avoid it.

Maybe something about how we can find some sort of common vernacular to discuss these issues?

Or maybe this issue has been addressed to the extent it can be until she actually ships a video or something else happens? I can't make that call for everyone.

momgamer wrote:

We could discuss the meat of Ms Sarkeesian's videos on their own merits in the threads that are related to the topics. As I said, give her the dignity of weighing her ideas in the same scale as we use for others.

Here, how about a discussion of the various tactics that are used to marginalize people and perhaps practical discussion on how to avoid it? Many times, people aren't even aware they're doing it. It's so pervasive it can take very careful phrasing to avoid it.

You know, I really dislike when threads devolve into "let's discuss how we discuss discussions, discuss!" (/coffeetalk), but I wanted to make a note here. The thread is about these videos and the reaction to them in general. To me, the first two sentences seem more - if not equally - relevant to that. In both cases, we're taking a conflux of topics (videos and the reaction to them) and splitting out one half or the other.

And really, I don't like the implication that talking about these videos in this thread is somehow disparaging or not in line with treating them with "dignity". I think it's perfectly dignified to take those videos seriously and respond to them in an intelligent way, which is what several people were doing. Are we asking what can be done to combat the sort of terrible behavior that was perpetrated? Then the answer is this - give people a worthwhile dialogue to focus on and engage in. Trying to stifle that seems counterproductive.

Tanglebones wrote:
MrDeVil909 wrote:

Well, it's an emotional topic, so things will get heated. I'm sure everyone understands.

So mom, serious question. Other than hang around discussing the meat of Ms Sarkeesian's videos, what should/could we being talking about right now?

../Looks up at link posted by me slightly earlier, reposts it:
I Can Be Just As Capable. Let Me.

Sure, that's really shocking. Every one of those PR idiots needs to be hit with a stick, preferably one greater than the diameter of a thumb. My youngest sister used to play, and kick ass, on COD4 hardcore servers so it seems mind-numbing to me that the people punting their games to the press would know it's the 21st century and girls can do pretty much anything they like.

momgamer wrote:

We could discuss the meat of Ms Sarkeesian's videos on their own merits in the threads that are related to the topics. As I said, give her the dignity of weighing her ideas in the same scale as we use for others.

Or maybe this issue has been addressed to the extent it can be until she actually ships a video or something else happens? I can't make that call for everyone.

I'll put those two together because I think they're related. The discussion of Ms Sarkeesian's videos here seems pretty dignified and respectful, as far as I can tell, and I don't think there's the need to fracture off multiple points of discussion across multiple threads. As Seth said, P&C threads do move organically, this one is not exception.

Ultimately, it does seem like there's not much to discuss regarding the harassment until it inevitably erupts again when she starts to release the videos 4chan is so scared of. And as I said, until that happens I don't see the harm in chatting about her work until then.

momgamer wrote:

Here, how about a discussion of the various tactics that are used to marginalize people and perhaps practical discussion on how to avoid it? Many times, people aren't even aware they're doing it. It's so pervasive it can take very careful phrasing to avoid it.

Maybe something about how we can find some sort of common vernacular to discuss these issues?

Sure, sounds good. Again, I don't see the need to separate all discussion into different threads unless discussion gets confusing.

Funkenpants wrote:
SpacePPoliceman wrote:

I'll say again: Isn't our tendency to cluck, then shrug our shoulders and say "Whelp, done with that! 4chan, whaddyagunnado?" an aspect of the problem?

Can you suggest a method by which posting on a tiny corner of the internet is going to alter what happens on 4chan?

Well, not to necessarily call you out, Funk, but in the part of my original post you didn't quote, I conceded I didn't have a solution, but encouraged those looking for things to talk about to talk about that. Luckily, it seems with momgamer's prompting, we're headed that way.

This is a pretty massive issue, honestly. There this case, there's Dickwolves, there's Jennifer Helper, but there's also Ocean Marketing--the dude was a dick, but did he deserve having the sludge unleashed on him? It seems there are enough facets that there's plenty, directly related to this issue, to talk about.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

I'll say again: Isn't our tendency to cluck, then shrug our shoulders and say "Whelp, done with that! 4chan, whaddyagunnado?" an aspect of the problem?

Yes. Someone somewhere could make a lot of money trying to figure out how to "humanize" Internet communication while maintaining the value of the Internet. Until then I think all you can do is learn to walk away (something I'm sh*tty at) and learn to unplug as the real world is where most discussion is and should take place.

That's my answer. More unplugging, honestly.

DSGamer wrote:

That's my answer. More unplugging, honestly.

It's a pretty good one. But the internet has become a pretty integral tool in our day to day lives, and, well, I'll be honest, I'm a stubborn, prideful asshole, and unplugging feels like more surrender, and that rubs me wrong.

Sarkeesian's case came with a handy counter-attack--she had her Kickstarter, and people could donate. But what about those cases like Helper, where there isn't a clear outlet?

Bloo Driver wrote:
momgamer wrote:

We could discuss the meat of Ms Sarkeesian's videos on their own merits in the threads that are related to the topics. As I said, give her the dignity of weighing her ideas in the same scale as we use for others.

Here, how about a discussion of the various tactics that are used to marginalize people and perhaps practical discussion on how to avoid it? Many times, people aren't even aware they're doing it. It's so pervasive it can take very careful phrasing to avoid it.

You know, I really dislike when threads devolve into "let's discuss how we discuss discussions, discuss!" (/coffeetalk), but I wanted to make a note here. The thread is about these videos and the reaction to them in general. To me, the first two sentences seem more - if not equally - relevant to that. In both cases, we're taking a conflux of topics (videos and the reaction to them) and splitting out one half or the other.

And really, I don't like the implication that talking about these videos in this thread is somehow disparaging or not in line with treating them with "dignity". I think it's perfectly dignified to take those videos seriously and respond to them in an intelligent way, which is what several people were doing. Are we asking what can be done to combat the sort of terrible behavior that was perpetrated? Then the answer is this - give people a worthwhile dialogue to focus on and engage in. Trying to stifle that seems counterproductive.

I disagree, and I think this is the particular case to show that. As momgamer suggested, this is a particularly sensitive topic because many of the people contributing to the harassment DON'T KNOW THEY'RE DOING IT. That's why the simple "we all agree it's bad, now let's move on to why the videos upset people" doesn't cut it here. We've demonstrated twice, with two heated arguments already that we DON'T all agree on these issues. The first discussion was whether she was being selfish to take the money, the second was whether her videos are an accurate representation of our gender based culture.

What I'm seeing some people saying, and what seems to be falling on deaf ears, is that those are all discussions focused on the VICTIM. Clearly we expect P&C threads to evolve, it's just that in this particular case, it's evolved in the direction that is concerning. In a vacuum I would totally agree that discussions about her videos would be a great subject. The problem is that talking about her videos in a thread that started to discuss her harassment is very indicative of the thought process people go through who are unconsciously minimizing the problem.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

That's my answer. More unplugging, honestly.

It's a pretty good one. But the internet has become a pretty integral tool in our day to day lives, and, well, I'll be honest, I'm a stubborn, prideful asshole, and unplugging feels like more surrender, and that rubs me wrong.

Sarkeesian's case came with a handy counter-attack--she had her Kickstarter, and people could donate. But what about those cases like Helper, where there isn't a clear outlet?

When I'm feeling good and really taking care of myself I find that I'm reading books. I'm taking naps in the park. I'm playing board games with friends. I'm getting on my computer, turning off WiFi and writing, journaling. I'm getting out on my bike. I'm meditating.

There are a lot of benefits to unplugging. The biggest one being that you get to keep your humanity when you put in perspective how much Internet matters. I'm not great at this, but when I try to be I find that I'm much happier.

Jolly B wrote:

I disagree, and I think this is the particular case to show that. As momgamer suggested, this is a particularly sensitive topic because many of the people contributing to the harassment DON'T KNOW THEY'RE DOING IT. That's why the simple "we all agree it's bad, now let's move on to why the videos upset people" doesn't cut it here. We've demonstrated twice, with two heated arguments already that we DON'T all agree on these issues. The first discussion was whether she was being selfish to take the money, the second was whether her videos are an accurate representation of our gender based culture.

And one line of related discussion doesn't preclude the other.

What I'm seeing some people saying, and what seems to be falling on deaf ears, is that those are all discussions focused on the VICTIM. Clearly we expect P&C threads to evolve, it's just that in this particular case, it's evolved in the direction that is concerning. In a vacuum I would totally agree that discussions about her videos would be a great subject. The problem is that talking about her videos in a thread that started to discuss her harassment is very indicative of the thought process people go through who are unconsciously minimizing the problem.

You know, it's bad to talk about the victim when blaming the victim, but you seem to be supposing we can't talk about the victim. At all! Which is weird to me.

Also, speaking of deaf ears - I still maintain that attempting to cut off reasonable discussion about the videos is actually antithetical to attempting to "do something". It's well and good that you're making the association for me that since I'm discussing the videos, I must be trying to dismiss and minimize the problem, but that's just not the case, sorry. This is my personal solution to issues of marginalization and "othering" as a weapon - disarm them by creating legitimate discussion for people to participate in.

DSGamer wrote:

When I'm feeling good and really taking care of myself I find that I'm reading books. I'm taking naps in the park. I'm playing board games with friends. I'm getting on my computer, turning off WiFi and writing, journaling. I'm getting out on my bike. I'm meditating.

There are a lot of benefits to unplugging. The biggest one being that you get to keep your humanity when you put in perspective how much Internet matters. I'm not great at this, but when I try to be I find that I'm much happier.

I don't mean an outlet in a personal mental health sense, though. I mean, and maybe this is my Rorschach showing, next time there's this injustice (which this clearly is), and there isn't an obvious means of showing you don't support it, what's to be done? The internet's part of our society, so how do we socialize it?

DSGamer wrote:

There are a lot of benefits to unplugging. The biggest one being that you get to keep your humanity when you put in perspective how much Internet matters. I'm not great at this, but when I try to be I find that I'm much happier.

I agree. But I have a desk job in a work environment that is as quiet as a monastery. Every time I unplug I always end up plugging back in eventually to get a break from the monotony.

After spending so many years on the internet, one of the things I discovered is that you can find someone to disagree about literally anything. Sometimes it's good to take a break.

Actually, Bloo, you caught the gist of what I had just deleted three times. Good thing I hit refresh.

tl;dr: +1.

Jolly Bill wrote:

I disagree, and I think this is the particular case to show that. As momgamer suggested, this is a particularly sensitive topic because many of the people contributing to the harassment DON'T KNOW THEY'RE DOING IT. That's why the simple "we all agree it's bad, now let's move on to why the videos upset people" doesn't cut it here. We've demonstrated twice, with two heated arguments already that we DON'T all agree on these issues. The first discussion was whether she was being selfish to take the money, the second was whether her videos are an accurate representation of our gender based culture.

Well, the first of those arguments was with a troll, the second was about something that seemed relevant and of interest.

And I haven't seen anyone say anything even approximately like, 'we all agree it's bad, now let's move on to why the videos upset people.' We've been discussing how Lego does reflect the sexism in society according to Ms Sarkeesian's videos. No one has even discussed whether she's right or wrong, agreement is pretty universal, just whether she's exaggerated a bit for effect.

Jolly Bill wrote:

What I'm seeing some people saying, and what seems to be falling on deaf ears, is that those are all discussions focused on the VICTIM. Clearly we expect P&C threads to evolve, it's just that in this particular case, it's evolved in the direction that is concerning. In a vacuum I would totally agree that discussions about her videos would be a great subject. The problem is that talking about her videos in a thread that started to discuss her harassment is very indicative of the thought process people go through who are unconsciously minimizing the problem.

So can someone with something more meaningful to say, possibly, say it? It's easy to say that the thread's gone in a concerning direction, yet there hasn't been a meaningful attempt to take it in another direction. Just a further derailing.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

When I'm feeling good and really taking care of myself I find that I'm reading books. I'm taking naps in the park. I'm playing board games with friends. I'm getting on my computer, turning off WiFi and writing, journaling. I'm getting out on my bike. I'm meditating.

There are a lot of benefits to unplugging. The biggest one being that you get to keep your humanity when you put in perspective how much Internet matters. I'm not great at this, but when I try to be I find that I'm much happier.

I don't mean an outlet in a personal mental health sense, though. I mean, and maybe this is my Rorschach showing, next time there's this injustice (which this clearly is), and there isn't an obvious means of showing you don't support it, what's to be done? The internet's part of our society, so how do we socialize it?

Ultimately, and I think this is why we bothered to engage the troll earlier is exactly that. To engage.

It's very easy to say 'oh, internet, you so crazy' and walk away, especially when arguing with a troll is futile. You're not going to change the mind of someone who argues without conviction and shifts their terms and says 'lol umad?' when challenged.

But if a YouTube channel is troll bombed, we need to bomb it back, if a story on Kotaku like the one Tangle linked goes up, we need to comment. Not to change the minds of the trolls, but to show people on the outside that not all gamers and nerds are hateful, basement dwelling douches. If a few speak up, more will speak up and hopefully there will be a reversion to mean over time.

Sorry to triple post, but I'll quote myself.

MrDeVil909 wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:
MrDeVil909 wrote:

Well, it's an emotional topic, so things will get heated. I'm sure everyone understands.

So mom, serious question. Other than hang around discussing the meat of Ms Sarkeesian's videos, what should/could we being talking about right now?

../Looks up at link posted by me slightly earlier, reposts it:
I Can Be Just As Capable. Let Me.

Sure, that's really shocking. Every one of those PR idiots needs to be hit with a stick, preferably one greater than the diameter of a thumb. My youngest sister used to play, and kick ass, on COD4 hardcore servers so it seems mind-numbing to me that the people punting their games to the press would know it's the 21st century and girls can do pretty much anything they like.

Here's an attempt to move the discussion in a more 'worthy' direction, but it seems to have been overlooked,

DSGamer wrote:

Someone somewhere could make a lot of money trying to figure out how to "humanize" Internet communication while maintaining the value of the Internet.

I'm halfway there. I'd settle for just half of a lot of money.

This was a good use of my employers' time.

MrDeVil909 wrote:

Sorry to triple post, but I'll quote myself.

MrDeVil909 wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:
MrDeVil909 wrote:

Well, it's an emotional topic, so things will get heated. I'm sure everyone understands.

So mom, serious question. Other than hang around discussing the meat of Ms Sarkeesian's videos, what should/could we being talking about right now?

../Looks up at link posted by me slightly earlier, reposts it:
I Can Be Just As Capable. Let Me.

Sure, that's really shocking. Every one of those PR idiots needs to be hit with a stick, preferably one greater than the diameter of a thumb. My youngest sister used to play, and kick ass, on COD4 hardcore servers so it seems mind-numbing to me that the people punting their games to the press would know it's the 21st century and girls can do pretty much anything they like.

Here's an attempt to move the discussion in a more 'worthy' direction, but it seems to have been overlooked,

When I read the article, practically all comments where on the subject of... WASD versus ESDF. Not a single comment stating "Wow, these PR guys really sucked monkeyballs". Since no comments wished rape, cancer or cooties on the author that's actually progress!