Feminism/Sexism and Gaming/Geek/Popular culture Catch All

LarryC wrote:

I have to ask, since this has bugged me for a while:

What's so undignified about capturing yourself on film and then selling it? Is it because sex is a degrading act? I've always been taught that it was a beautiful activity, and one of the most blessings God has given to us.

I could be totally wrong about this, but maybe getting paid for doing sex on camera is what makes it degrading? As in, maybe you're taking a wonderful gift and turning it around for profit? Shot in the dark on my part here.

P.S.
This isn't the time or the place for it, Larry, but man...you continue to surprise me. My respect for you has levelled up.

American culture has very Puritan roots too, so there is a lot of cultural shame, idealization, and forbidden-fruit-ness attached to bodies, sex, and all things related.

The Conformist wrote:

In my opinion it would seem you wouldn't have enough respect for yourself, let alone to fight for it for an entire sex. But if after all that, if you can wake up and look yourself in the mirror and still see a person with plenty of dignity, then by all means fight for what you believe in, just don't expect to sway many opinions.

Seems like as good a place as any to post this.

Bloo Driver wrote:
LarryC wrote:

I have to ask, since this has bugged me for a while:

What's so undignified about capturing yourself on film and then selling it? Is it because some of you may consider sex as a degrading act? I've always been taught that it was a beautiful activity, and one of the most blessings God has given to us.

I think the basic notion is that you're taking something private and/or sacred (depending on your view) and making it public for cheap attention to an end of degrading the act itself. While that certainly can't apply to every case, I believe that's the general complaint by people on one level or another.

Amoebic wrote:
LarryC wrote:

I have to ask, since this has bugged me for a while:

What's so undignified about capturing yourself on film and then selling it? Is it because sex is a degrading act? I've always been taught that it was a beautiful activity, and one of the most blessings God has given to us.

I could be totally wrong about this, but maybe getting paid for doing sex on camera is what makes it degrading? As in, maybe you're taking a wonderful gift and turning it around for profit? Shot in the dark on my part here.

P.S.
This isn't the time or the place for it, Larry, but man...you continue to surprise me. My respect for you has levelled up.

This might be derailing the thread too much, but what's the difference between this and romances in movies? Why is sex the only part of love that's considered 100% private and/or shouldn't be used for profit?

I'm not saying either of your are saying that's the case, but that's what gets me about these kinds of arguments. I think in the end it comes down to what clover said.

pgroce wrote:
The Conformist wrote:

In my opinion it would seem you wouldn't have enough respect for yourself, let alone to fight for it for an entire sex. But if after all that, if you can wake up and look yourself in the mirror and still see a person with plenty of dignity, then by all means fight for what you believe in, just don't expect to sway many opinions.

Seems like as good a place as any to post this.

Heh, seeing where the conversation was going, I thought "I wonder if anyone saw that study..."

SixteenBlue wrote:

This might be derailing the thread too much, but what's the difference between this and romances in movies? Why is sex the only part of love that's considered 100% private and/or shouldn't be used for profit?

I'm not saying either of your are saying that's the case, but that's what gets me about these kinds of arguments. I think in the end it comes down to what clover said.

I will go even further.

Why is sex segregated into its own class of body functions that others aren't, particularly if sex is performed for reasons of pleasure?

There are other body functions that provide pleasure, such as gourmet dining and the drinking of alcohol. There are entire shows and cable channels dedicated to those pleasurable activities and people can't wait to see judges stuff their mouths with tasty delights in order to determine who the next greatest chef is. Those are profitable industries/shows.

Yet, when you talk about making a profit from the filming of sex, far too many people cower.

Quite frankly, I would prefer seeing an orifice getting filled in a sex movie rather than on a show about cooking.

Yeah, I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with porn, sex work or stripping.

However, thanks to the crazy prudishness around sex the respective industries are forced into the fringes of society. This means that the lack of visibility makes them festering pits of crime and abuse.

Bloo_Driver:

I think the basic notion is that you're taking something private and/or sacred (depending on your view) and making it public for cheap attention to an end of degrading the act itself. While that certainly can't apply to every case, I believe that's the general complaint by people on one level or another.

Seems inconsistent. The transfiguration of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is televised all the time, and that strikes me as a teeny bit more sacred than sex.

Amoebic:

I could be totally wrong about this, but maybe getting paid for doing sex on camera is what makes it degrading? As in, maybe you're taking a wonderful gift and turning it around for profit? Shot in the dark on my part here.

You got me. It's always puzzled me. I find eating more fun sometimes, and I'll be the happiest man alive if I could sell myself eating pasta. I'll even moan like I like it! 'Cause, really, I am a pasta whore. I like it like that! Give me that al dente like you mean it, baby.

The related point is actually the part that's on the thread's topic squarely - why are the women considered degraded, but the men aren't? Or are they? I'm not really super familiar with how porn creators are viewed in the US.

LarryC wrote:

The related point is actually the part that's on the thread's topic squarely - why are the women considered degraded, but the men aren't? Or are they? I'm not really super familiar with how porn creators are viewed in the US.

Bloo Driver mentioned earlier that it's a solid bet that the negative judgments applied to the women in porn are not also applied to the men. The men are getting laid, the women have issues.

Remember, a woman in porn is male property being misused. A man is exercising his divine right of conquest.

Phoenix Rev wrote:

I will go even further.

Why is sex segregated into its own class of body functions that others aren't, particularly if sex is performed for reasons of pleasure?

There are other body functions that provide pleasure, such as gourmet dining and the drinking of alcohol. There are entire shows and cable channels dedicated to those pleasurable activities and people can't wait to see judges stuff their mouths with tasty delights in order to determine who the next greatest chef is. Those are profitable industries/shows.

Yet, when you talk about making a profit from the filming of sex, far too many people cower.

Quite frankly, I would prefer seeing an orifice getting filled in a sex movie rather than on a show about cooking.

Something like America's Next Top Sex Partner would probably be very entertaining.

4xis.black wrote:
Phoenix Rev wrote:

I will go even further.

Why is sex segregated into its own class of body functions that others aren't, particularly if sex is performed for reasons of pleasure?

There are other body functions that provide pleasure, such as gourmet dining and the drinking of alcohol. There are entire shows and cable channels dedicated to those pleasurable activities and people can't wait to see judges stuff their mouths with tasty delights in order to determine who the next greatest chef is. Those are profitable industries/shows.

Yet, when you talk about making a profit from the filming of sex, far too many people cower.

Quite frankly, I would prefer seeing an orifice getting filled in a sex movie rather than on a show about cooking.

Something like America's Next Top Sex Partner would probably be very entertaining.

I do not want to see Simon Cowell or Cee-Lo's genitals, ever. Thank you.

I don't think Simon's genitals would ever be on display; he'll just comment on how awful the couple involved in the sex were performing.

Phoenix Rev, I have literally never come across that analogy before. Awesome bit of insight.

edit: actually, nm.

LarryC wrote:

Bloo_Driver:

I think the basic notion is that you're taking something private and/or sacred (depending on your view) and making it public for cheap attention to an end of degrading the act itself. While that certainly can't apply to every case, I believe that's the general complaint by people on one level or another.

Seems inconsistent. The transfiguration of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is televised all the time, and that strikes me as a teeny bit more sacred than sex.

I should keep this post handy for later, if anyone ever asks me for a perfect example of apples and oranges. The whole point of religious miracles and services is to share them with the people at large as a testament to the flying spaghetti monster or whomever. Not that I agree with the argument I presented above, you just did a pretty bad job showing its inconsistency with that comparison.

SixteenBlue wrote:

This might be derailing the thread too much, but what's the difference between this and romances in movies? Why is sex the only part of love that's considered 100% private and/or shouldn't be used for profit?

I'm not saying either of your are saying that's the case, but that's what gets me about these kinds of arguments. I think in the end it comes down to what clover said.

There's an interesting discussion to be had there, to be sure. But yeah, I think this one is just about to fly off the rails.

The Conformist wrote:

You watch football because the people on there are nothing more than sport objects, which would seem counter productive if you were fighting against being viewed as such. I could be wrong, but never in the history of sport watching has a man or woman watched a ball game and thought to themselves "I really respect that woman/man's intelligence in choosing such a productive and dignified carrer". Not saying that the men and women in the sport industry aren't intelligent, just that the choice may not be the wisest if you are going to speak out on feminism.

Why are we picking on porn here? Does working any job that isn't considered erudite and morally pure invalidate the opinions of those that take part?

For instance, I swapped porn for sport in your analogy. Still holds, right?

Again, out of respect for the topic perhaps another should be made? We are veering off the original points.

SixteenBlue wrote:
LarryC wrote:

I have to ask, since this has bugged me for a while:

What's so undignified about capturing yourself on film and then selling it? Is it because sex is a degrading act? I've always been taught that it was a beautiful activity, and one of the most blessings God has given to us.

I was just going to make a post like this.

There's nothing undignified or worthy of disrespect about consensual, safe sex, no matter how kinky.

That sir is a matter of opinion of course. Especially when it's done for profit and on film. But we are straying from the original topic.

Porn is on topic, isn't it? Pretty sure it qualifies as "popular culture."

My perception of why porn is often poo-pooed is that it tends to portray women purely as objects of sexual desire who exist only to please men. This places it in a different league than a romcom, since the woman in a romcom is (at least, supposedly) representing an actual person, with sexual attraction being but one of the things in play.

I think it's not so much about the actual activities of the actresses, but more a question of the integrity of the overall artistic visions of these things, and pondering why the actresses would be willing to be involved in the vision of a work that portrays women in such a way. The physicality specifically isn't really the point.

Most pornos (again, not an expert) aren't about loving relationships between partners who have mutual respect. Last I checked.

(Not an expert)

Also, and this isn't directly related, but this article about the lingerie industry is kind of interesting.

With all due respect to the adult film industry, I think getting into the "overall artistic vision" of "Spider Man: a XXX Parody" might be a waste of time. While most adult films do divorce the sexual act from lasting relationships of mutual respect, that's not altogether wrong, either. Sex is sex, and as PR pointed out, it's a bodily function just like eating or sleeping, and the drive to copulate is at least as strong as eating.

When was the last time you ate when you weren't hungry? I mean hungry -- in the "I'm literally going to die from starvation if I skip this meal?" Mine was a couple hours ago. In fact I have no idea what starvation even feels like. I don't remember where I'm going with this paragraph, but I'm gonna leave it here, maybe it'll spark something useful in someone else.

More on topic, I think Jonman just obliterated your argument, Conformist. I get that you have a low opinion of the adult film industry and those in its employ, but that's on you, not the industry.

So if it's not an argument, are you saying your opinion is wrong? Seems self contradictory there. At best, you seem to have an opinion based on nothing, which is almost as bad.

Seth wrote:

With all due respect to the adult film industry, I think getting into the "overall artistic vision" of "Spider Man: a XXX Parody" might be a waste of time. While most adult films do divorce the sexual act from lasting relationships of mutual respect, that's not altogether wrong, either. Sex is sex, and as PR pointed out, it's a bodily function just like eating or sleeping, and the drive to copulate is at least as strong as eating.

When was the last time you ate when you weren't hungry? I mean hungry -- in the "I'm literally going to die from starvation if I skip this meal?" Mine was a couple hours ago. In fact I have no idea what starvation even feels like. I don't remember where I'm going with this paragraph, but I'm gonna leave it here, maybe it'll spark something useful in someone else.

More on topic, I think Jonman just obliterated your argument, Conformist. I get that you have a low opinion of the adult film industry and those in its employ, but that's on you, not the industry.

Well there really wasn't an argument to obliterate, since I stated numerous times that it is simply just my opinion (one that many share). But I gave an answer a page or so back to a similar comparison to garbage men/women. You can't really prove with facts that porn is indeed degrading to a man or woman since it's all subjective.

Seth wrote:

So if it's not an argument, are you saying your opinion is wrong? Seems self contradictory there. At best, you seem to have an opinion based on nothing, which is almost as bad.

I have a basis on my opinion but it's not relevant to the topic anymore, it would veer off into moral and religious beliefs and that has no place here.

Tanglebones wrote:
The Conformist wrote:

Of course they CAN be feminists but how many people would take them seriously? And since every single feminist doesn't look at situations the same way, I'm sure there would be a few of them that might scoff at a garbage collector standing up for the rights of women. Garbage collectors (men and women) do what some people would consider incredibly degrading "work". Personal opinion of course.

I understand that being a Garbage collector could be viewed as degrading. However, fighting for the right (in my opinion) as a man or woman to be treated with respect, dignity and equality and then waking up in the morning and shooting a porn that has you hog tied to a inflatable purple dinosaur while taking one up the keister is a tad (hypocritical)different than running a morning garbage route in slacks. They also don't fight for the rights and safety of trash immediately after crushing it in the compactor and setting it on fire.

In my opinion it would seem you wouldn't have enough respect for yourself, let alone to fight for it for an entire sex. But if after all that, if you can wake up and look yourself in the mirror and still see a person with plenty of dignity, then by all means fight for what you believe in, just don't expect to sway many opinions. You watch porn because the people on there are nothing more than sexual objects, which would seem counter productive if you were fighting against being viewed as such. I could be wrong, but never in the history of porn watching has a man or woman watched a porn video and thought to themselves "I really respect that woman/man's intelligence in choosing such a productive and dignified career". Not saying that the men and women in the port industry aren't intelligent, just that the choice may not be the wisest if you are going to speak out on feminism.

I look at it the same way as if I were to go out in camo, shoot and skin a deer while filming an add for PETA, it just doesn't sit right with some people, and may look a tad hypocritical. And like I said, this is just my opinion, nothing more.

clover wrote:

American culture has very Puritan roots too, so there is a lot of cultural shame, idealization, and forbidden-fruit-ness attached to bodies, sex, and all things related.

Bingo.

I thought this was pretty awesome:

The gender debate in Sweden has become more significant in the last couple of years. TOP-TOY has been following the debate and wants to reflect these values in our markets and mirror the modern way of children’s play.

Thomas Meng, Retail Marketing Director for BR Toys and TOYS”R”US in the Nordic countries says, “We want our catalogues to reflect the way boys and girls play in real life, and not present a stereotype image of them. If both girls and boys in Sweden like to play with a toy kitchen, then we want to mirror this pattern.”.

IMAGE(http://i1.wp.com/laughingsquid.com/wp-content/uploads/Hair.jpg?resize=566%2C694)

IMAGE(http://i1.wp.com/laughingsquid.com/wp-content/uploads/Guns.jpg?resize=617%2C699)

That's so much better to see than the old, "well, they're just advertising to their market" excuse.

I hope my daughter plays laser tag when she grows up a bit!

FeralMonkey wrote:

I thought this was pretty awesome:

The gender debate in Sweden has become more significant in the last couple of years. TOP-TOY has been following the debate and wants to reflect these values in our markets and mirror the modern way of children’s play.

Thomas Meng, Retail Marketing Director for BR Toys and TOYS”R”US in the Nordic countries says, “We want our catalogues to reflect the way boys and girls play in real life, and not present a stereotype image of them. If both girls and boys in Sweden like to play with a toy kitchen, then we want to mirror this pattern.”.

That is sweet.