Feminism/Sexism and Gaming/Geek/Popular culture Catch All

I was drunk, and thought I was haranguing you in private instead of public. I know I'm often an ass, but now I'm losing work over it, so please accept my public prostration. Nice guys make mistakes, yanno?

At least that sounds like a real apology. That's progress, right?

dejanzie wrote:
At least that sounds like a real apology. That's progress, right?

It is, I just have asshole fatigue.

clover wrote:
dejanzie wrote:
At least that sounds like a real apology. That's progress, right?

It is, I just have asshole fatigue.

Or in medical terms: laborum cloaca

I dunno, just because he said they were explanations not excuses doesn't make it so.

Yeah, I'm mostly trying to focus on it not being a "sorry your feelings were hurt" apology. That's some level of progress.

dejanzie wrote:
clover wrote:
dejanzie wrote:
At least that sounds like a real apology. That's progress, right?

It is, I just have asshole fatigue.

Or in medical terms: laborum cloaca

Well, he's undoubtedly an giant, ignorant asshole. How can someone in contact with the gaming industry or geek culture not know who Felicia Day is? I'm not a huge fan of hers, or many of the other people that the geeks go crazy for, but I still know who she is.

And surely a games writer would do a bit of research before shooting his mouth off?

But is it sexist? Sure, calling her a booth babe marginalises her, but if you don't know what she's done it seems like a valid question.

I'm not taking a side here, I'm genuinely seeking illumination.

----------------------------

Total aside: The discussion is becoming more free-ranging, which I like, so I'm renaming the thread.

If he was being a generalized ass, he could have stuck with the "what role do you have in gaming culture?" thing. But he reached right for the booth-babe trope, so it's really just a who-let-the-girl-into-the-treehouse thing for him.

clover wrote:
If he was being a generalized ass, he could have stuck with the "what role do you have in gaming culture?" thing. But he reached right for the booth-babe trope, so it's really just a who-let-the-girl-into-the-treehouse thing for him.

Fair point. I was leaning in that direction myself, but couldn't quite formulate it. Thanks.

Destructoid shpuldnt have apologised like that. Reads like something done out of fear;appealing to a mob isnt cool. Wou,ld have been better to tweet at him with a correction and made him look stupid(er).

edit

and the boothbabe 'trope' is appropriate in his context. its a concise way of getting across a loaded idea in few characters.

The apology has shades of Paul Christoforo and his interaction with PA.

The apology comes down to: I'm sorry I got called on my bullsh*t. I had no idea who I was dealing with when I ran my mouth off and got deservedly slapped down.

Which is fine for Merlin/Felicia - but I think this is yet another indicator that we need to have the collective backs of our women in gaming. Let those trouting off know that we are not OK with that and walk away. Be the Wil Wheaton of whatever circle we happen to be in and make a stand.

1Dgaf wrote:
Destructoid shpuldnt have apologised like that. Reads like something done out of fear;appealing to a mob isnt cool. Wou,ld have been better to tweet at him with a correction and made him look stupid(er).

Well, he was working for them. For a media outlet, what their writers say in public is easily construed as being something they said. It makes it appear that they endorse what he said, so they had to say something, even before they had gone through the decision process of firing him. So it wasn't really an option for them (some companies it might be, but they'd be the less responsible and less corporate ones).

Also, drunk or not, ignorant or not, private or not, as a member of the media why would you harass someone who you may have to interview in the future? I realize that a lot of people act really stupid on the internet when they have no social feedback system to stop them, but just ends up showing everyone what you're like when you think no one is watching.

OK, they said the right thing at the wrong time. It was done to mimise backlash from fans, not correct an error. Correct first, then clarify you dont agree, though its implied. No consistency with company tone of voice, no obvious sincerity (even if they meant it).

MrDeVil909 wrote:
Well, he's undoubtedly an giant, ignorant asshole. How can someone in contact with the gaming industry or geek culture not know who Felicia Day is? I'm not a huge fan of hers, or many of the other people that the geeks go crazy for, but I still know who she is.

I'm sure he knew who she is, he simply wanted to say something he thought would be just too shocking and controversial for people to handle. That guy's tweets reek of someone getting a little attention and trying their best to apply the "people are talking about me, so I'm a celebrity on the Internet!" formula. As someone who is extremely critical of folks trying to merely cash in on the sudden glorification of geek culture, even I know Day is at least earnest in her endeavors.

Forgive me if I'm being a dirty skimmer, but I'm curious to know how often really vile sexist language is tolerated in online games. My frame of reference are RTSes where if you're wasting time throwing insults you're going to lose, and MMOs where such language quickly earns you a ban. I haven't spent much time on Xbox live, but from what I've heard the Xbox team is also quick to swing the ban hammer for inappropriate behavior. I can see guild chat being a problem, but there are plenty of mature guilds out there who won't tolerate the idiocy.

This thread does show there is a lot of ignorance on gamer blogs and boards, so I'm not denying it exists in gamer culture. I'm just honestly curious to know how often it's happening in game.

jdzappa wrote:
This thread does show there is a lot of ignorance on gamer blogs and boards, so I'm not denying it exists in gamer culture. I'm just honestly curious to know how often it's happening in game.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you haven't played League of Legends.

I'm not going to defend the dude from Destructoid, but I think he was nibbling around a nugget of truth, even if he said something insulting and stupid. It has to be said that the fetishiziation of some women because they like video games or comic books is equally depressing. At least I think it is. As someone who has a beautiful, intelligent wife that could care less about video games it also bugs me when "geeks" go apesh*t over someone who dips into their sub-culture for a few minutes. Not only does it make the rest of us look bad, but I feel *that* is sexist as well.

Gremlin wrote:
jdzappa wrote:
This thread does show there is a lot of ignorance on gamer blogs and boards, so I'm not denying it exists in gamer culture. I'm just honestly curious to know how often it's happening in game.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you haven't played League of Legends.

No I haven't but I guess I figured that game was similar to other RTSes where if youre wasting time being an artard in chat then youre already losing. Are there no report or ignore buttons?

DSGamer wrote:
I'm not going to defend the dude from Destructoid, but I think he was nibbling around a nugget of truth, even if he said something insulting and stupid. It has to be said that the fetishiziation of some women because they like video games or comic books is equally depressing. At least I think it is. As someone who has a beautiful, intelligent wife that could care less about video games it also bugs me when "geeks" go apesh*t over someone who dips into their sub-culture for a few minutes. Not only does it make the rest of us look bad, but I feel *that* is sexist as well.

Yeah, you've hit on something that kind of bugs me a bit too. I think it's better than the opposite which is more common, but there is some troubling fetishisation that goes on in geek culture too.

DSGamer wrote:
Not only does it make the rest of us look bad, but I feel *that* is sexist as well.

I don't feel like I'm the best person to address this. But I'd say you're both right and wrong, in that while there is definitely an...inappropriate response that often happens in general, we're also talking about individuals who shouldn't have to prove that she's "really" interested in these things.

DSGamer wrote:
I'm not going to defend the dude from Destructoid, but I think he was nibbling around a nugget of truth, even if he said something insulting and stupid. It has to be said that the fetishiziation of some women because they like video games or comic books is equally depressing. At least I think it is. As someone who has a beautiful, intelligent wife that could care less about video games it also bugs me when "geeks" go apesh*t over someone who dips into their sub-culture for a few minutes. Not only does it make the rest of us look bad, but I feel *that* is sexist as well.

Are you saying the blame for that lies with the women, though? Should they be punished for being beautiful and into geeky things? My feeling is that the reason so many of them appear to just 'dip into the sub-culture for a few minutes' is that the abuse, or creepy stalkerdom they encounter drives them to hide their gender, and/or get out of creeperville.

Tanglebones wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
I'm not going to defend the dude from Destructoid, but I think he was nibbling around a nugget of truth, even if he said something insulting and stupid. It has to be said that the fetishiziation of some women because they like video games or comic books is equally depressing. At least I think it is. As someone who has a beautiful, intelligent wife that could care less about video games it also bugs me when "geeks" go apesh*t over someone who dips into their sub-culture for a few minutes. Not only does it make the rest of us look bad, but I feel *that* is sexist as well.

Are you saying the blame for that lies with the women, though? Should they be punished for being beautiful and into geeky things? My feeling is that the reason so many of them appear to just 'dip into the sub-culture for a few minutes' is that the abuse, or creepy stalkerdom they encounter drives them to shut the hell up about their gender, and get out of creeperville.

I'm sure DS isn't saying that. And I'm just as sure you're entirely right about why they may seem to dip their toes in.

Tanglebones wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
I'm not going to defend the dude from Destructoid, but I think he was nibbling around a nugget of truth, even if he said something insulting and stupid. It has to be said that the fetishiziation of some women because they like video games or comic books is equally depressing. At least I think it is. As someone who has a beautiful, intelligent wife that could care less about video games it also bugs me when "geeks" go apesh*t over someone who dips into their sub-culture for a few minutes. Not only does it make the rest of us look bad, but I feel *that* is sexist as well.

Are you saying the blame for that lies with the women, though? Should they be punished for being beautiful and into geeky things? My feeling is that the reason so many of them appear to just 'dip into the sub-culture for a few minutes' is that the abuse, or creepy stalkerdom they encounter drives them to hide their gender, and/or get out of creeperville.

I don't blame them at all. When I said he was nibbling around a nugget of truth I simply meant that women who deign to give geeks the time of day frequently get fetishized the same way booth babes do. Felisha Day isn't a booth babe. She's an actress and has specific talents and genuinely has a fondness for games, etc. However, men frequently fail to treat her much better than a booth babe and that bugs me.

I loved Felisha Day in "Dr. Horrible", but generally don't find her that interesting. However, I'm supposed to love her, apparently, because she's pretty and doesn't hate my hobbies. I find that insulting to me, to her and to women who don't care for games and comics. Geeks didn't invent this either. Long before there were "booth babes" there were women on Harleys and on the hoods of cars. The point is that fetishization is still a form of sexism, even if the person is genuinely part of your subculture.

Tanglebones wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
I'm not going to defend the dude from Destructoid, but I think he was nibbling around a nugget of truth, even if he said something insulting and stupid. It has to be said that the fetishiziation of some women because they like video games or comic books is equally depressing. At least I think it is. As someone who has a beautiful, intelligent wife that could care less about video games it also bugs me when "geeks" go apesh*t over someone who dips into their sub-culture for a few minutes. Not only does it make the rest of us look bad, but I feel *that* is sexist as well.

Are you saying the blame for that lies with the women, though? Should they be punished for being beautiful and into geeky things? My feeling is that the reason so many of them appear to just 'dip into the sub-culture for a few minutes' is that the abuse, or creepy stalkerdom they encounter drives them to hide their gender, and/or get out of creeperville.

I think part of the problem is gaming is a relatively new industry, and women game reporters/commentators are now in the same place as women reporters covering sports were 25 years ago. That's not to say there still isn't sexism in sports coverage, but it seems to be a lot less than the abuse Day recently experienced. The only thing normal well adjusted gamers can do is make our voices known and condemn incidents like this.

jdzappa wrote:
Gremlin wrote:
jdzappa wrote:
This thread does show there is a lot of ignorance on gamer blogs and boards, so I'm not denying it exists in gamer culture. I'm just honestly curious to know how often it's happening in game.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you haven't played League of Legends.

No I haven't but I guess I figured that game was similar to other RTSes where if youre wasting time being an artard in chat then youre already losing. Are there no report or ignore buttons?

Actually, let me take a step back and share a list of things I've personally witnessed, relatively recently:
DayZ: People getting stuck in the wait queue and spamming incredibly racist insults. Also many slurs against Russians. Lots of racist/sexual/rape trolling followed by "U Mad?" Post bandit-skin-removal things got worse. The forum is worse; the thread about adding female characters devolved quickly into a cesspit where one of the main arguments against it is that women would be incapable of surviving in the post-apocalyptic world.

TF2 on random public server: Player names intentionally invoking rape, racist slurs, sexual slurs, or combinations of the above. Sprays invoking the above. Voice chat consisting of various derogatory slang for female genitalia, heaven help you if you're an actual woman. Five snipers on the same team.

Gremlin wrote:
jdzappa wrote:
Gremlin wrote:
jdzappa wrote:
This thread does show there is a lot of ignorance on gamer blogs and boards, so I'm not denying it exists in gamer culture. I'm just honestly curious to know how often it's happening in game.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you haven't played League of Legends.

No I haven't but I guess I figured that game was similar to other RTSes where if youre wasting time being an artard in chat then youre already losing. Are there no report or ignore buttons?

Actually, let me take a step back and share a list of things I've personally witnessed, relatively recently:
DayZ: People getting stuck in the wait queue and spamming incredibly racist insults. Also many slurs against Russians. Lots of racist/sexual/rape trolling followed by "U Mad?" Post bandit-skin-removal things got worse. The forum is worse; the thread about adding female characters devolved quickly into a cesspit where one of the main arguments against it is that women would be incapable of surviving in the post-apocalyptic world.

TF2 on random public server: Player names intentionally invoking rape, racist slurs, sexual slurs, or combinations of the above. Sprays invoking the above. Voice chat consisting of various derogatory slang for female genitalia, heaven help you if you're an actual woman. Five snipers on the same team.

Aye. LoL is bad as well, (Though, in Riot's defense, the Report button actually _does_ something.). Tribes:Ascend is horrible, as well and the report button does sh*t. (So does the mute button, incidentally.) And I find it hard to believe you think that poor behavior leads to a ban in MMOs. It doesn't in WoW for instance.

Re: Fetishization, I agree with DS, but it seems like the sort of problem that needs to be fixed roughly in order. I.E, fix the rampant sexism first, _then_ worry about the fetishization angle. My hunch is that fixing the first will greatly minimize the second. (Generally speaking, if the gaming community would effectively grow up a bit, it wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem. It's very much a stereotypically adolescent thing to do.

I love when threads evolve all Pokeman style into the "catch-all" form.

jdzappa wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
I'm not going to defend the dude from Destructoid, but I think he was nibbling around a nugget of truth, even if he said something insulting and stupid. It has to be said that the fetishiziation of some women because they like video games or comic books is equally depressing. At least I think it is. As someone who has a beautiful, intelligent wife that could care less about video games it also bugs me when "geeks" go apesh*t over someone who dips into their sub-culture for a few minutes. Not only does it make the rest of us look bad, but I feel *that* is sexist as well.
Are you saying the blame for that lies with the women, though? Should they be punished for being beautiful and into geeky things? My feeling is that the reason so many of them appear to just 'dip into the sub-culture for a few minutes' is that the abuse, or creepy stalkerdom they encounter drives them to hide their gender, and/or get out of creeperville.
I think part of the problem is gaming is a relatively new industry, and women game reporters/commentators are now in the same place as women reporters covering sports were 25 years ago. That's not to say there still isn't sexism in sports coverage, but it seems to be a lot less than the abuse Day recently experienced. The only thing normal well adjusted gamers can do is make our voices known and condemn incidents like this.

Just my 2p here, but while I don't think Day goes out of her way to say "FEMALE GEEK/GAMER OVER HERE!", my impression is she doesn't go out of her way to avoid it.

I'm also thinking of the Ubisoft 'gamer girl' clan the Frag Dolls that they wheel out from time to time for marketing (even though the members are good skilled gamers last time I checked), there's no male equivalent that markets itself on it's gender.

Scratched wrote:
Just my 2p here, but while I don't think Day goes out of her way to say "FEMALE GEEK/GAMER OVER HERE!", my impression is she doesn't go out of her way to avoid it.

On the other hand, we don't ask women anywhere else in the entertainment field to go out of their way to avoid the fact that they are a (usually) attractive female having an impact.

I'm also thinking of the Ubisoft 'gamer girl' clan the Frag Dolls that they wheel out from time to time for marketing (even though the members are good skilled gamers last time I checked), there's no male equivalent that markets itself on it's gender.

Bronies.