Feminism/Sexism and Gaming/Geek/Popular culture Catch All

MrDeVil909 wrote:

I find it interesting that Leigh Alexander considers Bayonetta an empowered female character. Sadly I haven't played it, but it seems like typical teen targeted wank material.

I've had conversations with people who hold that Bayonetta is a deconstruction of the typical portrayal. I don't know enough about it to argue either way.

MrDeVil909 wrote:

I find it interesting that Leigh Alexander considers Bayonetta an empowered female character. Sadly I haven't played it, but it seems like typical teen targeted wank material.

I can see both sides of the argument when it comes to Bayonetta. On the one hand, she is a, literally, powerful character, both in terms of her effect on the gameworld, and her strength of character in the narrative. On the other hand, she's parodies/typifies all the worst excesses of female character design. I read that more as parody than exploitation, but it's a very fine line, and in this instance, the parody is relatively subtle.

Jonman wrote:
MrDeVil909 wrote:

I find it interesting that Leigh Alexander considers Bayonetta an empowered female character. Sadly I haven't played it, but it seems like typical teen targeted wank material.

I can see both sides of the argument when it comes to Bayonetta. On the one hand, she is a, literally, powerful character, both in terms of her effect on the gameworld, and her strength of character in the narrative. On the other hand, she's parodies/typifies all the worst excesses of female character design. I read that more as parody than exploitation, but it's a very fine line, and in this instance, the parody is relatively subtle.

I've only played the demo--it's on The Pile--but with a witch fighting 'holy' enemies with torture attacks out of a Neopagan screed about the Burning Times? Came across as a revenge fantasy to me.

CheezePavilion wrote:
Jonman wrote:
MrDeVil909 wrote:

I find it interesting that Leigh Alexander considers Bayonetta an empowered female character. Sadly I haven't played it, but it seems like typical teen targeted wank material.

I can see both sides of the argument when it comes to Bayonetta. On the one hand, she is a, literally, powerful character, both in terms of her effect on the gameworld, and her strength of character in the narrative. On the other hand, she's parodies/typifies all the worst excesses of female character design. I read that more as parody than exploitation, but it's a very fine line, and in this instance, the parody is relatively subtle.

I've only played the demo--it's on The Pile--but with a witch fighting 'holy' enemies with torture attacks out of a Neopagan screed about the Burning Times? Came across as a revenge fantasy to me.

That's kind of what I was driving at. Taken at face value, it is exploitative revenge fantasy. Approach with your tongue pre-placed firmly in your cheek, and it's actually very smart in it's presentation.

I haven't played Bayonetta at all, not even the demo, but I got the impression that most of the fights were super-heavy on sexual suggestiveness, and I vaguely remember something about one of her superpowers as being pretty ridiculous in that sense... something to do with tentacles, maybe?

She has magic hair that she usually magics into her catsuit, and sometimes into gargantuan hair monsters for attacking. But, obviously, doing so makes her catsuit skimpier, because the Law of Magic Hair Conservation stays in effect--Magic Hair cannot be in 2 different places at the same time.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

She has magic hair that she usually magics into her catsuit, and sometimes into gargantuan hair monsters for attacking. But, obviously, doing so makes her catsuit skimpier, because the Law of Magic Hair Conservation stays in effect--Magic Hair cannot be in 2 different places at the same time.

That law explains my hairline receding towards my back.

Nature is a Prick of a barber.

Also, don't say things like these:

IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/esme454/Bingo2-1.jpg)

dejanzie wrote:

Could I ask the ladies here a serious question?

How would you like us, men, to be a part of the solution instead of the problem?

Caveat: this is in regards to only some men and women. Obviously, an entire gender doesn't do this, but...

Re: Discussing sexism.

1. Don't get defensive.

2.Don't start throwing up examples of personal experiences to contradict the possibility that others may think that you're part of the problem. That kind of makes you part of the problem. Don't make the discussion about you; no one (male, female, or otherwise) cares all that much about your personal experiences in regards to being "not that thing" when talking about a systemic social issue.

3. Do listen. Do ask questions. Disagree well. Avoid personal attacks. You know, debate and behave like a mature adult.

4. Learn to recognise your own fallacies. If discussing sexism/feminism/gender inequalities makes you feel angry, disgusted, or derisive, truly ask yourself "why." Objectively. And definitely talk that out...but not in the middle of a discussion on societal sexism or a particular narrative regarding sexism or inequality. See 2.

5. Keep in mind that it isn't a woman vs man thing. It's a all sexes and genders behaving in very habitual and culturally conditioned way. We are perpetuating it on ourselves and each other despite our own genders and the genders we perceive in others. If we want to progress, we have to think and discuss beyond the comfort zone of "how it's done" or "this is what I know" and learn from shared experiences and information to develop a better understanding of what it's like to be on the other side of the table.

Edit: Why I love GWJ; most of you folks do a pretty stand-up job of doing these things pretty well.

I'm confused about the "It's a satire!" one. Maybe it's the exclamation mark? I think genuine satire is a great way of addressing many social problems.

It is, but that comment usually isn't about genuine, thoughtful satire. See also: You Just Don't Get The Joke

Like when people post those retro-sexist memes on Facebook.

clover wrote:

It is, but that comment usually isn't about genuine, thoughtful satire. See also: You Just Don't Get The Joke

I think this is a fair example of genuine, thoughtful satire:

Sidenote: Pretty much all of Ameobic's list can be transposed over "discussing racism" as well.

Also, moreso than the people who deny that sexism is an issue in gaming communities, I am stunned by the people who say they are happy with the current cesspool of online gaming culture that, frankly, doesn't do a whole lot to make us look like anything other than a horde of repressed man-children. Honestly, in several discussions i've seen online, people have come along and stated that they like the "freedom" of the status quo, which is just baffling to me.

I fail to see how it is a hugely limiting form of fascist repression of free expression to say "Hey, perhaps there's a way to trash-talk someone without calling them a f*g/dumb slut/et cetera."

That video reminds me of a whole segment Current TV had called Target Women. I've posted some of them before. http://current.com/shows/infomania/t...

Prederick wrote:

Also, moreso than the people who deny that sexism is an issue in gaming communities, I am stunned by the people who say they are happy with the current cesspool of online gaming culture that, frankly, doesn't do a whole lot to make us look like anything other than a horde of repressed man-children. Honestly, in several discussions i've seen online, people have come along and stated that they like the "freedom" of the status quo, which is just baffling to me.

I fail to see how it is a hugely limiting form of fascist repression of free expression to say "Hey, perhaps there's a way to trash-talk someone without calling them a f*g/dumb slut/et cetera."

There's an incredibly lazy train of thought that basically treats internet/gaming communities as some kind of force of nature that can't be stopped or controlled, instead of what they are: a group of people. And you hear a lot of the old fallacy: You'll never get rid of ALL the assholes, so it's not worth trying to address the asshole behavior at all!

Never mind that the existence of respectful communities (like this one) means it CAN be done. Never mind that no one is expecting perfection, just improvement. Much better to just accept the status quo. That means you don't have to confront anyone.

Prederick wrote:

I fail to see how it is a hugely limiting form of fascist repression of free expression to say "Hey, perhaps there's a way to trash-talk someone without calling them a f*g/dumb slut/et cetera."

This has always been my way of looking at things. If you can't come up with a better word that doesn't offend a group of people for no reason then you really need a better vocabulary.

SixteenBlue wrote:
Prederick wrote:

I fail to see how it is a hugely limiting form of fascist repression of free expression to say "Hey, perhaps there's a way to trash-talk someone without calling them a f*g/dumb slut/et cetera."

This has always been my way of looking at things. If you can't come up with a better word that doesn't offend a group of people for no reason then you really need a better vocabulary.

http://www.tlucretius.net/Sophie/Cas...

Tanglebones wrote:
SixteenBlue wrote:
Prederick wrote:

I fail to see how it is a hugely limiting form of fascist repression of free expression to say "Hey, perhaps there's a way to trash-talk someone without calling them a f*g/dumb slut/et cetera."

This has always been my way of looking at things. If you can't come up with a better word that doesn't offend a group of people for no reason then you really need a better vocabulary.

http://www.tlucretius.net/Sophie/Cas...

Even Better: 1811 Dictionary in the Vulgar Tongue

Prederick wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:
SixteenBlue wrote:
Prederick wrote:

I fail to see how it is a hugely limiting form of fascist repression of free expression to say "Hey, perhaps there's a way to trash-talk someone without calling them a f*g/dumb slut/et cetera."

This has always been my way of looking at things. If you can't come up with a better word that doesn't offend a group of people for no reason then you really need a better vocabulary.

http://www.tlucretius.net/Sophie/Cas...

Even Better: 1811 Dictionary in the Vulgar Tongue

THAT'S THE ONE - I was trying to remember it, and the other was the best I could come up with.

Well on the upside, if you ever use that to insult some one, you can end the required explanation with "...and you're also buffle-headed!".

SixteenBlue wrote:
Prederick wrote:

I fail to see how it is a hugely limiting form of fascist repression of free expression to say "Hey, perhaps there's a way to trash-talk someone without calling them a f*g/dumb slut/et cetera."

This has always been my way of looking at things. If you can't come up with a better word that doesn't offend a group of people for no reason then you really need a better vocabulary.

And it's not even like you have to act like a Victorian-era matron or anything. "Now go home and get your f*cking shinebox" is still perfectly valid, as are "your mother..." gags, hell, frankly there's a lot that i'm still willing to leave as "fair game" when it comes to trash-talking.

Prederick wrote:
SixteenBlue wrote:
Prederick wrote:

I fail to see how it is a hugely limiting form of fascist repression of free expression to say "Hey, perhaps there's a way to trash-talk someone without calling them a f*g/dumb slut/et cetera."

This has always been my way of looking at things. If you can't come up with a better word that doesn't offend a group of people for no reason then you really need a better vocabulary.

And it's not even like you have to act like a Victorian-era matron or anything. "Now go home and get your f*cking shinebox" is still perfectly valid, as are "your mother..." gags, hell, frankly there's a lot that i'm still willing to leave as "fair game" when it comes to trash-talking.

I keep my trash talking Pirate themed.

Prederick wrote:
SixteenBlue wrote:
Prederick wrote:

I fail to see how it is a hugely limiting form of fascist repression of free expression to say "Hey, perhaps there's a way to trash-talk someone without calling them a f*g/dumb slut/et cetera."

This has always been my way of looking at things. If you can't come up with a better word that doesn't offend a group of people for no reason then you really need a better vocabulary.

And it's not even like you have to act like a Victorian-era matron or anything. "Now go home and get your f*cking shinebox" is still perfectly valid, as are "your mother..." gags, hell, frankly there's a lot that i'm still willing to leave as "fair game" when it comes to trash-talking.

Depends on if you're playing with me. Then they tend to get awkward.

NathanialG wrote:
Prederick wrote:
SixteenBlue wrote:
Prederick wrote:

I fail to see how it is a hugely limiting form of fascist repression of free expression to say "Hey, perhaps there's a way to trash-talk someone without calling them a f*g/dumb slut/et cetera."

This has always been my way of looking at things. If you can't come up with a better word that doesn't offend a group of people for no reason then you really need a better vocabulary.

And it's not even like you have to act like a Victorian-era matron or anything. "Now go home and get your f*cking shinebox" is still perfectly valid, as are "your mother..." gags, hell, frankly there's a lot that i'm still willing to leave as "fair game" when it comes to trash-talking.

I keep my trash talking Pirate themed.

In this case, I must give props to the Goodfellas theme, for specificity.

Honestly, and possibly sadly, or not, but the last time I played with a trash talker (who limited his trash to "All y'allz need to take your rental back!"), I felt obligated to say "Good game, everyone, nice hustle." Yeah, I'm bullsh*t, but it wasn't their fault they weren't as good as me.

NathanialG wrote:
Prederick wrote:
SixteenBlue wrote:
Prederick wrote:

I fail to see how it is a hugely limiting form of fascist repression of free expression to say "Hey, perhaps there's a way to trash-talk someone without calling them a f*g/dumb slut/et cetera."

This has always been my way of looking at things. If you can't come up with a better word that doesn't offend a group of people for no reason then you really need a better vocabulary.

And it's not even like you have to act like a Victorian-era matron or anything. "Now go home and get your f*cking shinebox" is still perfectly valid, as are "your mother..." gags, hell, frankly there's a lot that i'm still willing to leave as "fair game" when it comes to trash-talking.

I keep my trash talking Pirate themed.

Which, at least on Facebook, usually turns into an amusing thesis on the plundering of booty.

She has a radio interview on CBC talking about the harassment from the kick-starter. Worth listening too.

http://www.cbc.ca/player/Radio/The+C...

Should we mention the Felicia Day/Destructoid kerfluffle here?

Sure, unless there's a lot to say about something specific that needs a separate thread I think it makes sense to keep similar discussions in one place.

So what's the Felicia Day/Kotaku kerfluffle?

Prederick wrote:

Should we mention the Felicia Day/Destructoid kerfluffle here?

Why not? I think it's very cromulent.

I was about to say that I was surprised and confused that Destructoid took the action it did, given Sterling's history and the climate over there, but then it occurred to me given that history and climate, I should wait until this happens with someone who doesn't have a Wil Wheaton on their side.

More broadly: I'm not very familiar with Day's actual work--I'll get that DA2 DLC some day, I swear--but I know she, dear God, made a web series about WoW on youtube. This guy may just be brushed off as an crank, but I doubt he's alone. And if he can question her legit-ness, I think that shows that to some, a woman will never be legit.

MrDeVil909 wrote:

So what's the Felicia Day/Kotaku kerfluffle?

A new Destructoid writer (Ryan Perez) makes the following tweets:
IMAGE(http://static03.mediaite.com/themarysue/uploads/2012/07/feliciatweets.jpg)

Destructiod put up the following damage control less than a day after, and also said they've ended their relationship with him as of July 1st.
IMAGE(http://static03.mediaite.com/themarysue/uploads/2012/07/destructoid.jpg)

Ryan makes the following apology:
IMAGE(http://static03.mediaite.com/themarysue/uploads/2012/07/apology.jpg)

Images from The Mary Sue