Starcraft II HotS Multiplayer Swarm-All

Dyni wrote:

In the early game, when do you protoss players throw down your first gateway? When/where do you chrono boost? What general strategies have you been using? So far, I've been massing gateways and spamming sentries, zealots, and stalkers while trying to improve my macro skills. I figured I'm better off sticking to one basic strategy while I try to get my bearings.

I play Random, so this advice may not be the best you'll recieve, but I've been told by people I play with sometimes that Protoss is actually my best race. So flavor to taste.

I build my first Pylon at 9. Once it finishes I chrono boost the Nexus and make sure Probes are queued up to 13, then build the Gateway once the funds come in. I make sure I have a second Pylon finishing just as the Gateway's about to, so that I have supply for that first Zealot. I also tend to get an Assimilator up for Vespene before the gateway finishes, because most of my Protoss builds go through a lot of Vespene in a hurry. The only one that doesn't is Charge Zealots, but you still need almost 400 for the buildings, the research, and Warp Gates, and you can spend the rest on Sentries because they're awesome.

You have a lot of choices, as to whether you want to warp in a second gateway while the first is still coming, whether you want to chrono boost probes again after the first boost or save it for other units and research, whether you want an early cybernetics core or a forge, or if you're just going to spam zealots for a while.

Sentries are great units, and don't forget to use Force Field. It's a real lifesaver, especially once you figure out what you're doing with it. Zealots are decent, and with Charge they become great. Stalkers are okay but Blink can take a lot of skill to use well, and it can be tough to use when you have a mixed group. It's easier to use it when they're all you have. Thankfully they're fairly solid units anyway even without it.

You know, looking at the spreadsheet, I wish there was a way of mass adding people.

Between just Steam and BNet it's a pain. Not including other games that have their own system like League of Legends and Borderlands.

Another thing to keep in mind with the protoss is that zealots and sentries make for a good mix of units economy wise. They're basically opposite in terms of what resource they're heavy on, so you can easily build a good mix of the two. And I like to balance that out with a colossus or two.

I just ran across what seems to be the new flavour of the week Terran build: the 3rax Reaper build. Seems strong; runs something like

10 supply
12 rax
12 refinery
12/13 refinery
tech lab

Pump out reapers, research reaper speed, keep building scvs, drop down 2 more raxes with tech labs as soon as possible without disrupting building reapers.

The couple of times videos I've seen have the initial terran attack coming with the first 3 reapers, with reinforcements pretty much constantly.

The key points of the build:
-timing-wise, the initial reapers seem to reach your opponent before they can tech up past 1.5 or so, and before they get much that can handle mass reapers
-it allows for a very smooth transition into mass marauder if your opponent manages enough stalkers/roaches to stymie your reapers
-gives you serious harassment capability: 3 reapers can one-shot a worker; good use of terrain means not much is getting at you unless you allow it; reapers blow up buildings but good - excellent against pylons; reapers with speed can out-race Queens and speedlings when not on creep

Some of the folks in the know are saying that this seems incredibly hard to stop. I haven't tried against real people yet.

Example:

Chumpy_McChump wrote:

Some of the folks in the know are saying that this seems incredibly hard to stop. I haven't tried against real people yet. :)

FYI. "Folks in the know" have been saying this about every strategy that has popped up throughout the beta. Until they eventually figure out how to stop it. Of course then another strategy emerges that they lose to and so is "incredibly hard to beat".

Yay, new cheese!

Wait, I play zerg.

Haven't watched the video but based on your description it sounds pretty hard for my typical build to stop. How would y'all recommend defending this? Should I just start building spine crawlers at 10 supply? As it is it's hard to survive as zerg long enough to get your macro on without the rush du jour ending the game in 5 minutes.

TheArtOfScience wrote:

Yay, new cheese!

Wait, I play zerg.

Haven't watched the video but based on your description it sounds pretty hard for my typical build to stop. How would y'all recommend defending this? Should I just start building spine crawlers at 10 supply? As it is it's hard to survive as zerg long enough to get your macro on without the rush du jour ending the game in 5 minutes.

Single spine crawler then zerglings then upgrade zergling speed. I think hellion rushing works better against Zerg than reapers.

Thanks for the tips, all. I cant type a proper response from my phone now, but I'll try some of them this weekend.

That reaper build does look nasty.

LarryC wrote:

Played some Battlenet again. Two wins, this time and got bumped up. Is it just me or are Battlenet guys much more nasty when they lose? I got called "noob" four times, each time when I won. I don't get called that when I lose. Weird.

I remember that from the beta days. Good times.

Barab wrote:

Had a kind of frustrating 2vs2 experience last night, got cannon rushed and lost one game. Very next game that comes up is the same two opponents! Got cannon rushed again, knew it was coming but still couldn't get his probe, frustrating.

Because of this and just the liklihood of being rushed in general i changed up my build order to get turrets down first. They seem to be better at the fast moving mobs and able to protect my miners. If i dont do it my zealots are too slow to stop them.

ranalin wrote:
Barab wrote:

Had a kind of frustrating 2vs2 experience last night, got cannon rushed and lost one game. Very next game that comes up is the same two opponents! Got cannon rushed again, knew it was coming but still couldn't get his probe, frustrating.

Because of this and just the liklihood of being rushed in general i changed up my build order to get turrets down first. They seem to be better at the fast moving mobs and able to protect my miners. If i dont do it my zealots are too slow to stop them.

I assume you mean stalkers. And yes, stalkers are the general answer against quick rushes for protoss (excluding the 6 pool).

On another note, I can't seem to stop queuing for Nexus Wars, even after an hour long game that almost crashed my computer with thousands of units on screen

Dyni wrote:

On another note, I can't seem to stop queuing for Nexus Wars, even after an hour long game that almost crashed my computer with thousands of units on screen

How'd you get to an hour long? I rarely see it make it past 15 mins.

Tkyl wrote:
Chumpy_McChump wrote:

Some of the folks in the know are saying that this seems incredibly hard to stop. I haven't tried against real people yet. :)

FYI. "Folks in the know" have been saying this about every strategy that has popped up throughout the beta. Until they eventually figure out how to stop it. Of course then another strategy emerges that they lose to and so is "incredibly hard to beat".

True. I like the fact that it looks like preventing this will require specific effort, rather than a generic opponent build; reinforcing the need for scouting can only be a good thing.

mrwynd wrote:
TheArtOfScience wrote:

Yay, new cheese!

Wait, I play zerg.

Haven't watched the video but based on your description it sounds pretty hard for my typical build to stop. How would y'all recommend defending this? Should I just start building spine crawlers at 10 supply? As it is it's hard to survive as zerg long enough to get your macro on without the rush du jour ending the game in 5 minutes.

Single spine crawler then zerglings then upgrade zergling speed. I think hellion rushing works better against Zerg than reapers.

Watch the video. A single spine crawler is only useful where it can reach; reaper have the mobility to just ignore it. Zlings and then slings absolutely melt to a very small amount of micro, and slings can't catch upgraded reapers off-Creep.

I think hellions in this case would have been almost useless, as they would have been unable to even reach the mineral line, let alone take out buildings. The joy of the reaper is being able to avoid static defenses (until there are enough to obliterate them, at least) and demolish buildings when not wreaking havoc on the mineral line.

There's another LzGamer game linked below where he does the same thing against someone prepared for it. Arguably, StrifeCro made a mistake when he attacked, but LzGamer could easily have moved into a Marauder-heavy composition to wreck the Roaches.

Wanna try the matchup sometime, mrwynd (or anybody, for that matter)? Look me up; I'm still learning the build, but I'd be interested to see how it does against some who's expecting it.

I still see no way to stop a group of void rays if they get their beams fully charged. When you read the tooltip it says "does more damage the longer it deals damage to a single target" however if you switch targets and attack someone else quickly its still charged. Think this is a bug?

Queueball wrote:
Dyni wrote:

On another note, I can't seem to stop queuing for Nexus Wars, even after an hour long game that almost crashed my computer with thousands of units on screen

How'd you get to an hour long? I rarely see it make it past 15 mins.

I rarely see it last more than 15 minutes either. I've been in 2 games close to an hour. Both of them involved masses of thors. They're so big that the lane gets really backed up. 6 attack each other at a time, and the others just wait their turn.

It's fun using the special, 1000 mineral units.
It's not fun being reduced to 2 fps.

Happytime Harry wrote:

I still see no way to stop a group of void rays if they get their beams fully charged. When you read the tooltip it says "does more damage the longer it deals damage to a single target" however if you switch targets and attack someone else quickly its still charged. Think this is a bug?

No, that's working as intended. Normally, Void Rays will charge up for example on your Extractor/Refinery/Assimilator and then shift-queue all your workers as soon as they are fully charged. After stopping to attack, the charged up state stays for about three more seconds and if the Void Ray attacks a new target within that time period, it'll stay fully charged and WTFPWN whatever it is targeting. Against Bronze and Silver players the easiest thing to stop Void Rays is scouting. Generally in those divisions, it never hurts to build an Engineering Bay/Forge and put two Missile Towers/Photon Cannons in your worker line. As Zerg, build a couple of Queens or push for Lair and Hydralisks. Alternately, it never hurts to have a few Vikings/Phoenixen to harass your opponent and also deal with Void Rays, if you're not to keen on static defenses.

The key factor is catching the Void Ray tech early by scouting and not letting the Void Ray(s) charge up before engaging it/them.

Edit: In the Silver league I am currently in and among German players in general (due to a certain SC2 community portal), four out of five Protoss will try to Void Ray rush. So I just prepare against that and take a little more time with my actual strategy and it usually turns out fine.

I have also found masses of cheap units work really well against void rays.

For example marines does to quick it does not matter and the constant switching targets messes them up.

A mass of marines with stimpack can chew threw a large blob of void rays. Sentinels also work but not as well.

Dyni wrote:

In the early game, when do you protoss players throw down your first gateway? When/where do you chrono boost? What general strategies have you been using?

The two most common Protoss build orders are 2gate early pressure or 13gate econ. You can play with that as you like, but those are the basics, as far as I know. I don't really know the 2gate BO, but 13gate goes like this:

9 Pylon
13 Gate (or 12)*
13 Assimilator (or 14)*
15 Pylon
16 Cybernetics Core
16 Assimilator (or 17)*

*These numbers kind of depend on whether you're chrono-boosting probes.

It's a pretty simply build that's more suited to a passive game early on. People usually get one Zealot, Stalker and Sentry out for defense. (Sentries are a good way to spend your gas early on.) A timely forcefield on your ramp can make or break the entire game, so make sure you're paying attention. After this opening, I tend to transition into 3 Gate, Robo, but it depends on scouting info. Unless you've got Roaches/Tanks knocking at your door, the first thing out of your Robo Facility should be a boosted Observer, with a rally point set on their base.

I usually start chrono-boosting my probes as soon as the first pylon finishes. After that, you can boost whatever you like. It's a waste to do it before your first pylon because you'll just get supply blocked. Besides probes, I also like to boost warpgate research.

Happytime Harry wrote:

I still see no way to stop a group of void rays if they get their beams fully charged. When you read the tooltip it says "does more damage the longer it deals damage to a single target" however if you switch targets and attack someone else quickly its still charged. Think this is a bug?

Not a bug. It's definitely intentional. And you shouldn't be asking how to deal with fully charged void rays. You should be asking how do you stop the void rays before they become fully charged.

Tkyl wrote:
Happytime Harry wrote:

I still see no way to stop a group of void rays if they get their beams fully charged. When you read the tooltip it says "does more damage the longer it deals damage to a single target" however if you switch targets and attack someone else quickly its still charged. Think this is a bug?

Not a bug. It's definitely intentional. And you shouldn't be asking how to deal with fully charged void rays. You should be asking how do you stop the void rays before they become fully charged.

Tricks you can do with this is attack yourself near or on the way to your opponent to get a charge going, then charge right into combat. I've toyed around with it a little when stomping a computer to see if I'm dexterous enough to handle it.

Queueball wrote:
Dyni wrote:

On another note, I can't seem to stop queuing for Nexus Wars, even after an hour long game that almost crashed my computer with thousands of units on screen

How'd you get to an hour long? I rarely see it make it past 15 mins.

Are you not using your nukes? That alone should push it way past 15 minutes.

I had a frustrating 3v3 experience last night. We got triple proxied. I knew the big-team games were kind of broken, but I think we just got to the level where the other teams are taking advantage of it. Rushers have a huge advantage, because it's three on one, at least for a while. Most 3v3 and 4v4 maps have teammates pretty separate, so it's hard to defend.

scribble wrote:
Queueball wrote:
Dyni wrote:

On another note, I can't seem to stop queuing for Nexus Wars, even after an hour long game that almost crashed my computer with thousands of units on screen

How'd you get to an hour long? I rarely see it make it past 15 mins.

Are you not using your nukes? That alone should push it way past 15 minutes.

I had a frustrating 3v3 experience last night. We got triple proxied. I knew the big-team games were kind of broken, but I think we just got to the level where the other teams are taking advantage of it. Rushers have a huge advantage, because it's three on one, at least for a while. Most 3v3 and 4v4 maps have teammates pretty separate, so it's hard to defend.

For the ones I've lost the other half of the team got overwhelmed. And the ones I've won, they had some bad nukes, and medivacs were really helpful.

Chumpy_McChump wrote:

Wanna try the matchup sometime, mrwynd (or anybody, for that matter)? Look me up; I'm still learning the build, but I'd be interested to see how it does against some who's expecting it.

I would be up for this. I have faced quite a few reaper rushes. One trick is to lure them near your queen.

A spine crawler can be good too, once again you just have to move your workers around, especially versus a hellion rush.

If you can see him going for reapers I like to drop a spine crawler, just to be safe.

Anyway, any practice against a build like that can only be good, so I'll look for you next time I'm on.

Hi,

Can I please get an invite to the Steam Group? I'm trying to play with people who don't scream and spew profanity because I don't 500 Thors within the first 38 seconds of game time...

Hullo all,

Just saying hi as I just joined the forums. Starcraft II finally pushed me out of my solo gamer cave and now I'm plunging right into the deep unknown (for me): Multiplayer land.

Hope to meet you all on the battlefields in the farthest reaches of space - as allies or as worthy foes!

I AM,
Foo Dog

Chumpy_McChump wrote:
Tkyl wrote:

FYI. "Folks in the know" have been saying this about every strategy that has popped up throughout the beta. Until they eventually figure out how to stop it. Of course then another strategy emerges that they lose to and so is "incredibly hard to beat".

True. I like the fact that it looks like preventing this will require specific effort, rather than a generic opponent build; reinforcing the need for scouting can only be a good thing.

I don't know about that.

Terran will counter this without even trying. Marauders stop Reapers cold, especially once they have Concussive Shells, and Tanks destroy them too. Zerg definitely need Speedlings to have a chance, but even then Reapers can hurt them badly. The best Protoss option by itself is Stalkers. You can also use Zealots and Sentries, but then I'm addicted to using Force Fields.

Reapers are also somewhat hard to scout, since Terran tends to wall off their base, and every Terran is going to have at least one Barracks down anyway. The Tech Lab doesn't help, because that could just as easily be an indication of Marauders. To scout Reapers you have to actually see one, and by that time it could be too late.

But for me, at least, I assume that I might see Reapers any time I'm playing against a Terran, and try to build accordingly.

The very early gas should tell you about the reapers coming, imo. At least you should be assuming it and be prepared with a stalker/slings. WIth terran it is easier to counter them - put marines on the cliffs and it will discourage any such attacks, imo. Seonsor Towers - this is almost cheating.

Foo_Dog wrote:

Hullo all,

Just saying hi as I just joined the forums. Starcraft II finally pushed me out of my solo gamer cave and now I'm plunging right into the deep unknown (for me): Multiplayer land.

Hope to meet you all on the battlefields in the farthest reaches of space - as allies or as worthy foes!

I AM,
Foo Dog

Welcome to the show! Have fun getting your toes wet.