Starcraft II HotS Multiplayer Swarm-All

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Wings of Liberty (WOL) is no more, back in time for the first expansion Heart of the Swarm (HOTS), it's the multiplayer thread for Starcraft 2. Everything regarding multiplayer goes in here. Strategy discussions, imbalance rants, replay analysis.

### Other SC2 threads on GWJ ###
Singleplayer: Starcraft II Catch-All
Pro tournaments and leagues: SC2 Pro Tournament Discussion

### Community ###

  • NO MORE REGION LOCK! EU and Asian GWJers, join us on the server of the Americas! You will have to create a new SC2 ID upon your first login and achievements and unlocks are still region-based though.
  • When you log in, join the Gamers with Jobs group. To do that, click on the Groups button on the bottom right (speech bubble with 2 heads in it), then [Find], enter Gamers with Jobs in the top right field and double click the one result it found.
  • Use the channel to add other players playing multiplayer to your friendslist (rightclick on their name in the channel list). Players playing multiplayer will have a small number at the bottom left of their portrait image (their BNet level).
  • There is a [GWJ] clan, which is currently held by an inactive player. We'll try to get our hands on that so people can play under the GWJ banner if they want.
  • There is a GoogleDoc listing all GWJ BNet accounts. Unfortunately, there's no telling how up to date this sheet is, so the method above is definitely the safer one. Note that each region has its own sheet.
  • To fathom the skill level of other GWJers or find out which GWJers are on your experience level, look at their profile. It'll list the current league they are placed in, their highest in previous seasons and the number of games played. While the latter doesn't matter too much, a Bronze player with 200 games is different from one with 10 games.
  • Also, as for every game under the sun, there's a GWJ Steam group: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/gwjsc

### Useful Links ###

  • To upload your replays for other GWJers to see or if you want some advice, try http://http://drop.sc. Your replays can be found under "My Documents\Starcraft II\Accounts\[random number]\[another random code]\Replays\Multiplayer\". To watch a replay, simply download and double-click it. Starcraft 2 wll automatically launch (if not already running; requires you to login to BNet) and load it.
  • If you are confused regarding some of the Starcraft 2 lingo like "APM", "Choke", "Micro" or "Creep Highway", the Definitions page at Liquipedia is just the right destination for you.
  • For some race-specific insight and advise, have a look at the respective strategy articles of Protoss, Terran and Zerg at Liquipedia.
  • Liquipedia is the Wikipedia of Starcraft 2 and has many knowledgeable contributors.
  • For everything SC2 in general, TeamLiquid.net is the right address. Hundreds of livestreams, strategy discussion or tournament coverage, they have it all.

### How To Improve ###

Send me a PM or post in thread if things are incorrect or should be added.

Who wants to go on a weekend multiplayer binge with me?

EU peeps, who's up for some Sunday fun?

subscribing

I'm up for any multiplayer....but only for comp stomps or custom games against other goodjers.

I'm sorry...I SUCK THAT MUCH!

EDIT: mrwynd, your post was very very helpful. thank you.

checkm-8 wrote:
I'm up for any multiplayer....but only for comp stomps or custom games against other goodjers.

I'm sorry...I SUCK THAT MUCH!

EDIT: mrwynd, your post was very very helpful. thank you.

i suck too. maybe we play together vs comps first. my battlenet user name is: carbondioxid

Tagging.

What about custom maps and mods? Should we stick those here too or in the main thread?

repost from the old thread, from the perspective of a Zerg player

Here's some thoughts from my experience through Beta. My advice is better than my followthrough since I'm still not very good at hotkeys and scouting.

This varies greatly depending on who you're up against. Scouting is very important and I'm still trying to improve, a lot of my losses are because I didn't scout their build.
If I'm playing a mirror ZvZ I almost always go with zerglings to banelings to hydra. If the opponent goes into heavy roaches (common in early beta, not so common now) I transition to muta instead of hydra but hydras are still effective.
If I'm playing against Terrans I go heavy zergling at first. If they are going with MMM ball I get banelings, if they go mech I'll go zergling/muta though if they get Thors your mutas are useless and you have to transition to roaches or hydras.
Against Protoss I get roaches asap, quite often a large roach attack will finish a Protoss at midgame or before but it leaves you vulnerable to void rays so scouting is very important. If you're getting void ray rushed, get a bunch of queens out and transition to hydra.

As for when to tech, as Zerg you want to be always looking for the timing to expand. On a large map I'll usually expand around when my first queen comes out, very early. One base as Zerg only works if you don't expect the game to last to mid game. On a small map it really depends on how my first six zerglings go. If I have map control I expand immediately. If my six zerglings get killed or they're going for a rush I switch to one base play, throw down a couple spine crawlers and transition to the next military unit (roach, baneling).

Against Terran the first 100 gas should be spent on speeding zerglings, this makes them effective against hellions. Your next 100 gas should be spent on Lair unless there's an early attack and you need to get banelings but usually just some zerglings is enough against Terran early game. Coming to mid game you should have either a good amount of banelings or some hydras.

Against Zerg the first 100 gas should still go to speeding zerglings. If it's a small map, stick to one base and get to banelings and speed them up asap. ZvZ is all about aggression early, you want to end it with zergling/baneling. If the game goes longer, hydras or just more banelings should do it. If they rush to mutas, pump out a bunch of queens and just keep attacking with zergling/baneling. Mutas aren't economical in ZvZ, queens can counter them, hydras own them and then you just can't defend against the baneling/zergling without more units.

Against Protoss on a small map I stick to one base and go straight to roaches, making two zerglings just for scouting. On a large map I stick with the early expansion, then roaches, then Mutas. Then it depends on what units they transition to. If it's mass stalkers which Protoss usually does to counter mutas I go to zerglings and get the speed upgrade, more roaches works too. If they go with void rays I try to get some hydras out but usually Mutas are taking care of it. Void rays are still my biggest weakness, I usually underestimate them.

So there's some early-mid game strategies, suggestions welcomed.

mrwynd:

What's your solution against a 4-gate timing push by Protoss. That seems kind of problematic since it presents a double problem. He doesn't have to commit to the 4-gate until he sees you expand, and if you're not expanding, he can exert map control and expand himself, or present Colossi (or Immortal!)-support against your Roach defense. Would it not be better to use more zerglings to chase away the scouts?

Was sad to get placed in Bronze (not to belittle Bronze, I was just Silver for most of the beta and feel that's more accurate), but after 10 league matches and going 7-3 I got moved up to Silver. Much quicker than I thought! Now to begin the slow painful crawl upwards.

7inchsplit:

You mean, the long, eternal competition with your rivals and friends, right? I've always found SC more enjoyable when I was enjoying it with friends, as opposed to a solitary slog through nameless ladder competitors. In fact, I have a network at home ready to go for when LAN is finally enabled, whenever the hell that's going to be.

My friend had a four terminal network at home ready to go for SC2. He sure was pissed when he found out about LAN. Now, I can't even get him to try it out. In his defense, he tolerates lag even worse than I do. I'm okay with a 200 ms lag every so often. He won't stand for ping more than 10 or 12.

LarryC wrote:
7inchsplit:

You mean, the long, eternal competition with your rivals and friends, right? I've always found SC more enjoyable when I was enjoying it with friends, as opposed to a solitary slog through nameless ladder competitors.

Oh, for sure. I want to do both, though, since I feel like the league system and the partitioning into 100-man divisions makes it a bit more personable. Progress more tangible. But of course nothing beats games with friends.

LarryC wrote:
My friend had a four terminal network at home ready to go for SC2. He sure was pissed when he found out about LAN. Now, I can't even get him to try it out. In his defense, he tolerates lag even worse than I do. I'm okay with a 200 ms lag every so often. He won't stand for ping more than 10 or 12.

Eegads! I always assumed 150 or less was basically unnoticeable. But then again I'm sh*t at noticing these things. I hope he didn't set up the LAN just for SC2

Just tagging the thread.

7inchsplit:

Nah. He set up the server on Linux so he could access his files on the move using the 'net. It just so happened that he got his hands on a bunch of cheap CPUs from a local internet cafe upgrade changeup so he set up his own home network - for SC1 and Counterstrike and such. Also, easier to manage data.

I'd set up my own network like that except that I have no patience with bad code. It frustrates me when OSs don't perform flawlessly from install. I'm impressed that he got it up at all. He doesn't do IT for a living. Like, at all. He learned Linux and Java just so he could code his own stuff, for personal use.

LarryC wrote:
mrwynd:

What's your solution against a 4-gate timing push by Protoss. That seems kind of problematic since it presents a double problem. He doesn't have to commit to the 4-gate until he sees you expand, and if you're not expanding, he can exert map control and expand himself, or present Colossi (or Immortal!)-support against your Roach defense. Would it not be better to use more zerglings to chase away the scouts?

I prefer to keep map control with the roaches and move to hydras if they have more than two gateways, roach/hydra does a good job against gateway units. Zerglings just don't seem to work against zealots mineral wise but if they're going heavy stalkers then zerglings are definitely viable. You have to be aggressive to keep them from expanding and scout to see if they're going with the robotics bay and if so you need to counter with mutas. If they're going all in with Colossi and no immortals go with a few corruptors instead of mutas. Corruptors absolutely tear through colossi. Of course it's not easy to anticipate your opponent but I seem to do better with running to roaches asap instead of zerglings for Protoss.

One of the strengths of Zerg is almost any tech switch is a single building, their biggest weakness is they must expand to increase unit production.

I'm really glad we have a zerg player amongst us, I find them mostly baffling at this point even though I played zerg in SC1. Thanks for the insights, mrwynd.

I've been playing Zerg almost exclusively so far. Have about 25 or so games under my belt (haven't touched singleplayer yet). Only got placed in bronze for 1vs1, but I got into a silver on 2vs2 with my brother (another bronze 2vs2 and 3vs3 with another friend). I'd like to think I am a OK player, but I lose an awful lot, just need more practice..

Anyway I started using the 14 pool 15 hatch opening and it's been working out pretty good, before that doing an earlier pool (at around 12-13). Having the extra economy from the early expansion helps alot. Generally i've been going for Roaches->Mutas or Roaches->Hydras depending on how i feel i guess

I lurked in the Starcraft II thread for days before I found a time to make a comment that was actually somewhat relevant, but then you guys start another one. I don't know what you want from me so I'm just going to tag this.

Barab wrote:
Anyway I started using the 14 pool 15 hatch opening and it's been working out pretty good, before that doing an earlier pool (at around 12-13). Having the extra economy from the early expansion helps alot. Generally i've been going for Roaches->Mutas or Roaches->Hydras depending on how i feel i guess :)

This brings up a very good point. If you feel lost and not sure what to do, stick to one build. Find a build you enjoy and just practice it over and over. Make little adjustments when needed, but don't stray drastically from it. This will enable you to work on your timings and other things that make you a better player. If you are constantly jumping from build order to build order, you won't be able to get good at anything and will just feel lost.

Even the best players don't do well when they try build orders they've never done before.

I haven't played the MP yet, I have done a couple of 1v1 against the AI and can win on Medium (playing terran). I haven't tried any of the other races or difficulties yet. I would love to do some comp stomps 2v2 and get on Ventrillo and work through some basics with anyone. I am SodaGremlin.520 in the game.

Cheers,

SodaGremlin

Tkyl wrote:
Barab wrote:
Anyway I started using the 14 pool 15 hatch opening and it's been working out pretty good, before that doing an earlier pool (at around 12-13). Having the extra economy from the early expansion helps alot. Generally i've been going for Roaches->Mutas or Roaches->Hydras depending on how i feel i guess :)

This brings up a very good point. If you feel lost and not sure what to do, stick to one build. Find a build you enjoy and just practice it over and over. Make little adjustments when needed, but don't stray drastically from it. This will enable you to work on your timings and other things that make you a better player. If you are constantly jumping from build order to build order, you won't be able to get good at anything and will just feel lost.

Even the best players don't do well when they try build orders they've never done before.

This is great advice.

My latest starting build has been going to 11/10 with the extractor trick then pool so I'm back to 10/10, overlord, drones to 15/18, queen when pool finishes, overlord, drone, when drone finishes, scout with it.

On large maps I've used a quick expand build, going 11/10 with extractor trick, overlord, drones to 13, pool, three more drones to 15/18, hatchery expand, queen, drones, etc.

Early harass build that's not an all in rush - pool on 10, overlord, drone to 10/10, wait for pool, 3 zergling eggs, queen, drones, etc.

Do you have any tips on making better use of the queens? I find that even when I hotkey well and check my energy well, I still find it to be slow and clumsy to center on the hatch, hit the queen group, hit infuse, click on the hatch. It is likely I just need practice, but I am finding it feels less natural than, for instance the chrono boosts on specific buildings. That's ignoring the fact that I sometimes lose track of my queen energy

What this leads to is my feeling like I can't keep up with the economy that my expansions make. I may also be overexpanding too, but I feel like the economy is out of my grasp and I end up with a thousand or more reserved crystal.

drdoak wrote:
Do you have any tips on making better use of the queens? I find that even when I hotkey well and check my energy well, I still find it to be slow and clumsy to center on the hatch, hit the queen group, hit infuse, click on the hatch. It is likely I just need practice, but I am finding it feels less natural than, for instance the chrono boosts on specific buildings. That's ignoring the fact that I sometimes lose track of my queen energy

What this leads to is my feeling like I can't keep up with the economy that my expansions make. I may also be overexpanding too, but I feel like the economy is out of my grasp and I end up with a thousand or more reserved crystal.

I hotkey my queens and if you push the hotkey twice real quick it will center on the queen, just keep the queen near your hatch. I typically keep my queen to the right or above my hatch so I can hit 2, 2, V, left click on hatch. on my expansion 3, 3, V, left click on hatch, etc.

I wouldn't say you're over expanding, just try to find a way to use those minerals faster. Maybe upgrading to Lair sooner, putting down a few spine crawlers for defense or just more units. I still have a problem with hoarding too many minerals sometimes, just takes practice.

Still on the fence about SC2, but subscribing. My estimate is that this conversation will eventually ruin me.

I will be up for some comp stomping tonight!

mrwynd wrote:

This is great advice.

My latest starting build has been going to 11/10 with the extractor trick then pool so I'm back to 10/10, overlord, drones to 15/18, queen when pool finishes, overlord, drone, when drone finishes, scout with it.

On large maps I've used a quick expand build, going 11/10 with extractor trick, overlord, drones to 13, pool, three more drones to 15/18, hatchery expand, queen, drones, etc.

Early harass build that's not an all in rush - pool on 10, overlord, drone to 10/10, wait for pool, 3 zergling eggs, queen, drones, etc.

Details please. What is the extractor trick? Does this put you on a particular path, or can you go from here to any of the options mentioned earlier?

mrwynd wrote:

I wouldn't say you're over expanding, just try to find a way to use those minerals faster. Maybe upgrading to Lair sooner, putting down a few spine crawlers for defense or just more units. I still have a problem with hoarding too many minerals sometimes, just takes practice.

This is one of my biggest issues, I never spend fast enough

I had the most insane 3v3 game last night. We should not have won. My friends and I were laughing for a solid minute afterward.

It was like two separate games. One, where my friends were utterly crushed by mass marines and Stalkers while I ignored them and banshee rushed. The other, where we're all lifting off and hiding our new bases, and then my friend builds six BattleCruisers and wins.

ahrezmendi wrote:
mrwynd wrote:

This is great advice.

My latest starting build has been going to 11/10 with the extractor trick then pool so I'm back to 10/10, overlord, drones to 15/18, queen when pool finishes, overlord, drone, when drone finishes, scout with it.

On large maps I've used a quick expand build, going 11/10 with extractor trick, overlord, drones to 13, pool, three more drones to 15/18, hatchery expand, queen, drones, etc.

Early harass build that's not an all in rush - pool on 10, overlord, drone to 10/10, wait for pool, 3 zergling eggs, queen, drones, etc.

Details please. What is the extractor trick? Does this put you on a particular path, or can you go from here to any of the options mentioned earlier?


The extractor trick takes advantage of the fact that when a drone is used to construct a building it is deducted from your food total (because the drone is consumed). So if you build an extractor at say 13/13 food, your food goes to 12 and you can build another drone. Then you can cancel the extractor and get that drone back and have 14/13 food thus gaining an extra drone. The only thing you lose are part of the resources used to construct the extractor, but I believe extractors are only 50 minerals so it's basically nothing.

The trick is usually done very early so it can be used in pretty much any build.

Extractors are even less: 25 minerals. And you get most of them back.

Ah, that sounds like a handy trick. Thanks!

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