Talk to me about adoption

An aside:

I've heard anecdotally that, despite finally making a family through adoption, the pain/loss of infertility never goes away. I'm certainly feeling that this morning.

It's the day before we expect to receive big news on the status of our home study (it should be resuming, after a 4 month hiatus!), and yet everything came crashing down when a close friend announced that she is pregnant. I think it's even harder (and you probably won't understand this without having been here) because these friends were also having problems having a baby, and so they were people who understood what we were going through on a deep level. If past experience is any guide, they'll rapidly forget what infertility does to people, and will gleefully post pregnancy crap all over their Facebook, and it will fill every conversation. Argh - I hate myself for thinking this way, but it's literally impossible not to. It took everything I had just to congratulate her this morning, and give her a hug.... and now I'm left a conflicted mess.

This mindset may dull when we have adopted a child, but the loss of the ability to have a biological child will never fade. There's something special in making something from nothing - that doesn't take away at all from what I assume will be the magic of meeting our adopted baby whenever that happens (not to mention pulling a child out of a horrific circumstance - living in an orphanage), but it's something that I need to find a way to come to peace with.

I can say from personal experience that when you get your child, and that kid will grow into your child, the pain of infertility will indeed fade away. Just give it time and let yourself bond with your kid. Trust me, you'll stop worrying about your child's genetics and worry more about regular parenting stuff.

AndrewA,
I certainly won't try speaking for you especially because my family was formed through both adoption and birth but as Nevin says once you and your child find each other, you may see your perspective changes because you have the day to day joys and challenges of raising another human being.

I'm deeply sorry for the pain you are feeling now and I hope things move forward quickly with the home study.

Nevin73 wrote:

I can say from personal experience that when you get your child, and that kid will grow into your child, the pain of infertility will indeed fade away. Just give it time and let yourself bond with your kid. Trust me, you'll stop worrying about your child's genetics and worry more about regular parenting stuff.

Very well put, Nevin.

AndrewA wrote:

If past experience is any guide, they'll rapidly forget what infertility does to people, and will gleefully post pregnancy crap all over their Facebook, and it will fill every conversation. Argh - I hate myself for thinking this way, but it's literally impossible not to. It took everything I had just to congratulate her this morning, and give her a hug.... and now I'm left a conflicted mess.

Oh man, can I relate.

This has proven to be the most difficult thing for me, even more so for my wife. It's extremely difficult to be happy for someone in this situation when you can't help but resent them for throwing it in your face. Of course, it's not intended that way from their perspective, but those of us looking in from the outside can't help but feel angry.

In the past 18 months we've experienced several miscarriages. We're continuing to try, but have investigated both IVF and adoption if things don't work out soon.

And those are wise words by Nevin that I, too, should consider.

Best of luck.

Question I want answered but seems to better fit here;

As an adoptee I was taken from my first home under 'suspicions of neglect' and social services never uncovered any of the various other horrors, at the age of 7 or 8 I lacked the capacity to accept/express/etc them and so that came to be all my adoptive parents knew of the situation. It's simply something we've never discussed and now as an adult at 30 I'm debating whether I ought share some of those dark years with them.

On one hand they've never asked- but they may have been told not to, on the other hand perhaps sharing some or all of it would serve as a means of better expressing some of my profound trust in them and my immense gratitude for all they've done for that broken little boy.

Any thoughts or perspectives on this?

krev82 wrote:

Question I want answered but seems to better fit here;

As an adoptee I was taken from my first home under 'suspicions of neglect' and social services never uncovered any of the various other horrors, at the age of 7 or 8 I lacked the capacity to accept/express/etc them and so that came to be all my adoptive parents knew of the situation. It's simply something we've never discussed and now as an adult at 30 I'm debating whether I ought share some of those dark years with them.

On one hand they've never asked- but they may have been told not to, on the other hand perhaps sharing some or all of it would serve as a means of better expressing some of my profound trust in them and my immense gratitude for all they've done for that broken little boy.

Any thoughts or perspectives on this?

My advise, based on the stuff my kid has been dealing with, is to talk to a therapist (a good one, with recommendations) and get their opinion. Talk to the therapist and see if, at this stage of your life, unpacking all of this heavy stuff is a good idea at this point. By simply telling your parents now, you may make them feel that they failed you even if they couldn't have known.

Thanks for the replies to my undirected scream at the world yesterday. It helps to have an outlet, no matter how anonymous.

Nevin73 wrote:

I can say from personal experience that when you get your child, and that kid will grow into your child, the pain of infertility will indeed fade away. Just give it time and let yourself bond with your kid. Trust me, you'll stop worrying about your child's genetics and worry more about regular parenting stuff.

Oh don't get me wrong, I know intellectually that the child will grow to be mine - I have no fear at all of that happening. My worry is that I've heard from friends with adopted kids and from seminars on adopting after infertility that it's nearly impossible to get over the loss of the possibility of having a biological child, regardless of how happy you are with your adopted family. I utterly hate myself when I get all tied up in knots and resentful at friends/family who are pregnant... I need to find a way to deal with that.

Foxua wrote:

Oh man, can I relate.

This has proven to be the most difficult thing for me, even more so for my wife. It's extremely difficult to be happy for someone in this situation when you can't help but resent them for throwing it in your face. Of course, it's not intended that way from their perspective, but those of us looking in from the outside can't help but feel angry.

In the past 18 months we've experienced several miscarriages. We're continuing to try, but have investigated both IVF and adoption if things don't work out soon.

Ouch.... I can't even begin to conceptualize the pain of miscarriage.... good luck to you and your wife.

krev,
I'd echo what Nevin is saying and encourage you to find a therapist to start. You've mentioned before that your adoptive parents have always been there for you and I'm sure they would want to be there for you in dealing with this too but since so few of us have the tools to even approach these situations, you'll all need a guide.

AndrewA wrote:

Oh don't get me wrong, I know intellectually that the child will grow to be mine - I have no fear at all of that happening. My worry is that I've heard from friends with adopted kids and from seminars on adopting after infertility that it's nearly impossible to get over the loss of the possibility of having a biological child, regardless of how happy you are with your adopted family. I utterly hate myself when I get all tied up in knots and resentful at friends/family who are pregnant... I need to find a way to deal with that.

You'll know emotionally that the child is yours as well. You need to go through a grieving process with infertility and you need to complete that before you proceed with adoption. Honestly, go through the grieving process, deal with what you have to deal with now. Later on, whether or not is still an issue, you just won't have time to worry about it.

Foxua wrote:
AndrewA wrote:

If past experience is any guide, they'll rapidly forget what infertility does to people, and will gleefully post pregnancy crap all over their Facebook, and it will fill every conversation. Argh - I hate myself for thinking this way, but it's literally impossible not to. It took everything I had just to congratulate her this morning, and give her a hug.... and now I'm left a conflicted mess.

Oh man, can I relate.

This has proven to be the most difficult thing for me, even more so for my wife. It's extremely difficult to be happy for someone in this situation when you can't help but resent them for throwing it in your face. Of course, it's not intended that way from their perspective, but those of us looking in from the outside can't help but feel angry.

In the past 18 months we've experienced several miscarriages. We're continuing to try, but have investigated both IVF and adoption if things don't work out soon.

And those are wise words by Nevin that I, too, should consider.

Best of luck.

Foxua,

My wife and I are in a similar situation. Four miscarriages since 2010 and three of them were at 16wks. It has been so difficult for us, but especially my wife. We recently went to Stanford Medical Center here in California, hoping to have better luck with better doctors, but the results were the same. Although we have game plan going forward we are utterly broken. I don't show it as much as her, but I feel it all the same. She too has similar resentments, jealousy, etc towards friends/family that get pregnant. Its so difficult to see and swallow. We look at other three year old children, knowing our first lost would have been that old. I can sympathize with AndrewA on that end. Its very hard not to have those feelings. If our friends or family sensed any tension, I hope they understand.

We haven't considered other options yet. I think my wife has one or two more goes left in her. I don't know if we'll consider adoption. We come from a very prideful culture that is full of judgmental people. It would be difficult for us to consider it, but that may change if our luck doesn't change.

I am so sorry for all your loses over the past 18mos. I hope things get better for you two soon. I know all too well the affects this can have on a couple. Good luck.

kyoshiro,

Thank you for sharing and I'm very sorry for your losses. If you ever feel comfortable exploring adoption and have questions, please feel free to ask. Cultural differences can certainly make things more difficult. My wife's family is from India and when we adopted our daughter from there, she was coincidentally from the same city as many of my wife's relatives. We really had no idea how they'd react to her marriage to me (generic American white guy) let alone how they would deal with the concept of our adopting.
I will always be thankful to the local matriarch of the family who went our of her way to not only throw a party for all the local family but to welcome me and to hold a blessing ceremony for our new daughter.

Rahmen wrote:

kyoshiro,

Thank you for sharing and I'm very sorry for your losses. If you ever feel comfortable exploring adoption and have questions, please feel free to ask. Cultural differences can certainly make things more difficult. My wife's family is from India and when we adopted our daughter from there, she was coincidentally from the same city as many of my wife's relatives. We really had no idea how they'd react to her marriage to me (generic American white guy) let alone how they would deal with the concept of our adopting.
I will always be thankful to the local matriarch of the family who went our of her way to not only throw a party for all the local family but to welcome me and to hold a blessing ceremony for our new daughter.

Rahmen, thank you for that. What a beautiful story. I am happy for you and your family. Up until now the option for adoption has not been explored. I just know its something "we do not do". I am of Assyrian decent, as is my wife, and there is a lot of pride and pressure to produce. Partly because our nation and culture has been destroyed over many years. More so the past 15-20years. Mainly because we are a Christian minority in hostile countries with very little rights and protection. We are slowly disappearing. This adds even more weight to our situation. Furthermore I am the oldest, first generation male of my surname. There are only three males left in our family. The other two aren't married yet.

Good news. My wife last night said we can start trying again in December. Looks like we'll give it another go shortly. I was afraid that it would take her more time to mentally recover over our fourth loss. I think she's doing better now. She's had less episodes the past couple of weeks. Thank you Maui! The vacation must of helped. Cheers!

I would suggest that anyone who is undergoing (and struggling with) infertility grief talk to a therapist, regardless of whether or not you are considering adoption. Infertility is a loss...the loss of a child with your own genetics and loss of your (as a couple) ability to fulfill a biological imperative. It really can help cope with it.

An update: Our home study is finally back underway now that my wife finished her counselling, and although we're still on the callback list (waiting list for the waiting list) with our adoption agency, it's nice to finally feel like we're making some progress again.

I'm mostly posting this time to recommend a book for anyone looking at international adoption (and thus, almost by default, the adoption of a toddler). "Toddler Adoption: The Weaver's Craft" by Mary Hopkins-Best has been an amazing resource.... it's equal parts scary, informative, and uplifting, and I can't say enough good things about it. You can pick it up for a song on abebooks.com, which is what we did.

Congratulations AndrewA. I know there's a road ahead but great to hear you are seeing some progress.

Nice AndrewA. Good to hear. A little update on my end, my wife is open to trying again. Last month we began timing conception. Hopefully we strike gold soon!

kyoshiro wrote:

A little update on my end, my wife is open to trying again. Last month we began timing conception. Hopefully we strike gold soon!

Good luck to you guys. We've been down that whole road before, and I know the extra layer of stress that it can add to a relationship and what is supposed to be an enjoyable activity. Hopefully things progress quickly.

I hate bureaucracy.

Two years ago in Canada a mother killed her adopted Chinese daughter, and was subsequently diagnosed with depression. As a direct result of this isolated incident, any Canadian wishing to adopt who has ever sought counselling for anything whatsoever now requires an assessment from a registered psychiatrist (multiple sessions, much $$$) to even get into one of the Chinese adoption programs, let alone get a child.

So my wife, who received some optional counselling from a social worker to help her get over her crappy upbringing has now been targeted by this blanket policy, which is going to set up back quite a bit.

Meanwhile, idiots everywhere can breed without control. And yet here we are, screwed by some reactionary bureaucrat thousands of miles away because we took an optional step to make ourselves better parents.

Sorry Andrew. That's incredibly frustrating.

If you have to have the sessions anyway, maybe you can control the time and use it for things that you are concerned about in terms of the adoption or parenthood.

China is well known for silly and arbitrary adoption restrictions. If you have a "facial deformity" or BMI over a certain level are also reasons to disqualify someone from Chinese adoption.

Good luck with it.

Rahmen wrote:

If you have to have the sessions anyway, maybe you can control the time and use it for things that you are concerned about in terms of the adoption or parenthood.

Well, the silly part is that the sessions my wife did have were with a social worker.... never needed to escalate to a psychiatrist - except that's not good enough for China. Gah.

Other countries have some arbitrary restrictions too. Russia recent shut down all adoptions to countries that have legalized same sex marriage. (Not adoptions to same sex couples - adoptions to all couples in countries that allow it!!!!)

Oh geez.... because things couldn't get more stressful, today I received this email from my adoption practitioner:

A situation has come up, but it would require you guys responding almost immediately. The clincher is that the birth mother drank up to 8 ounces of rum 2-3 times per week for the first 7 months of pregnancy. Baby is due April 12. This means, she drank most of her pregnancy. She didn't know she was pregnant until February and stopped then. She also smoke marijuana throughout, 3-4 joints per week and stopped in February as well.

I wasn't sure if you guys were up for domestic and if you could accept a child who may be diagnosed with FASD. This is something that cannot be diagnosed through ultrasound and often, not for several years.

I don't care about the smoking, but FASD scares the pants off both me and my wife. We went to an FASD support group/info session once, and hearing the stories of these parents was harrowing. Of course, it stands to reason that parents with kids really far along the spectrum would seek out support groups like that.... but still.

This mother admits to having quite a bit to drink, and human nature is to under-estimate this sort of thing. The risk - in my mostly un-educated mind - is pretty high.

But a kid... an infant!!... and soon!!!!

Argh - this is going to be one hell of a decision, and with no time to make it.

Good luck to both you and your wife with your decision Andrew.

I don't personally know enough about FASD to offer any helpful information specifically on that front. And since I'm not sure if you are asking for suggestions (it is so obviously a decision for you and your wife alone) I'm going to use the spoiler tag to cover my thought process on this moment for us if you care to read it.

Spoiler:

As hard (impossible?) as it is, this is one of the last moments you can try and make an unemotional decision about what these means to you both. The moment you choose to move forward with this or another child, you will be bound deeply no matter the outcomes. I emphasize that because for me, it was critical that I both accept the boundaries of what I thought I could handle and then be ready to try and never second guess that. In our case, our child had very low birth weight and had been in the hospital for pneumonia twice in her early months. She seemed to be improving but there were risks. There was a spectrum of things my wife and I had decided we could be ready for and a spectrum of things we either felt unprepared to handle or were too scared to admit we weren't sure how to handle. We balanced this against the set of risks and unknowns having a birth child would bring and tried to make the best choice we could.
As I read around this site and see the persistence for example of parents with autistic children and others who are struggling, I know that ultimately few of them had a choice about the first steps on their paths.
Take the time to get some information and be ready and good luck being honest with each other and moving forward no matter what your decision is.

Andrew, best of luck with this difficult decision. Friends of mine adopted an infant whose mother drank and used marijuana during her pregnancy (though I don't know how much). The child is developing typically. Have you had a chance to look at the chance this woman's child will have FASD?

You must consider what you are willing to do and how much emotional and financial stress you are prepared to deal with. But keep in mind that there are many things you cannot control when you become a parent.

So, my wife and I had a long talk last night, and did more reading, and decided that it wouldn't be fair to the child, the birth mother, or ourselves if we went into this with the doubts that we had about raising a child with FASD. It was a gut-wrenching decision to make, but we think it was the right one for where we're at right now. Ugh, though.

The risk of birth defects would be very high given the amount of alcohol the birth mother consumed - and FASD can be a lot like autism... and so it's a really hard thing to say "yes, I will knowingly walk into this child's life, and am sure that I will do an amazing job".

Adopting a toddler from China isn't going to be a picnic, but at least we'll have a good handle on the specific challenges of the child before we bring him/her home.

AndrewA wrote:

So, my wife and I had a long talk last night, and did more reading, and decided that it wouldn't be fair to the child, the birth mother, or ourselves if we went into this with the doubts that we had about raising a child with FASD. It was a gut-wrenching decision to make, but we think it was the right one for where we're at right now. Ugh, though.

The risk of birth defects would be very high given the amount of alcohol the birth mother consumed - and FASD can be a lot like autism... and so it's a really hard thing to say "yes, I will knowingly walk into this child's life, and am sure that I will do an amazing job".

Adopting a toddler from China isn't going to be a picnic, but at least we'll have a good handle on the specific challenges of the child before we bring him/her home.

I salute you for recognizing your limitations. Adoption can be a lot more trying than most people realize (love does not, in fact, conquer all) and knowing what you can deal with is critical. Just be aware, however, that adoption from other countries can have the same risks and that you might still end up with a kid with FASD (or worse, something like Reactive Attachment Disorder) because there is often poor records and poor socialization in orphanages.

Good luck.

I know that is really tough Andrew. I also know that may be an understatement of a lifetime. With the extra time, it might help if you talk to your social worker about other common challenges so you can have the time to read up on them and think through what you may or may not be able to handle. For instance after having met a lot of other families, a cleft palette would probably be something if we were to have adopted again that we might have been open to. Regardless though, all of this is a personal decision for you and your wife so do what you feel you need to do and don't feel too much pressure from anyone else.

Good luck in your continuing journey.

Good luck Andrew. I hope things go smoothly.

So.... update time.

We got shot down in flames for the China program because the person who works for the agency thought that China would not accept my wife based on the fact that she sought out counselling to help her deal with the sh*tty upbringing her parents gave her. It's totally insane that they did that to us.... we spoke with an expert on Chinese adoption, and the policy is that applicants have to be 3 years clear of any medication that they'd been taking for clinical depression. My wife was never clinically depressed, and never took any meds. We were extremely pissed off, but the agency would not back down.

So... plan J (or whatever we're up to) is now well underway. We did more research and found an agency that does Vietnamese adoptions. The process is really fast for adoption (~2 years), and we meet all qualifications. It's still a special needs toddler adoption program, but that's fine - we were all psyched up for that anyways. Our home study has been submitted to the Ontario ministry for approval (6w -> 6m approval process), and we're in the process of filling out all of the Vietnam-specific paper work so that we can send it as soon as our home province is satisfied that we're not monsters.

The adventure continues.