Torment: Tides of Numenera Catch-All

Tanglebones wrote:
maverickz wrote:

Look, I'm just saying I'd like Torment: Numeral to be a little less wordy. I'm not trying to solve world peace here.

I hear those words, but it's like asking it to give up the thing that made it special. Also, with a Kickstarter budget, there isn't going to be anywhere near enough money for it to be voiced enough to get a Torment-dense script out.

Oh I disagree, I don't think it was the wordiness that made that place special. It was the weird characters and the weird world. Things you didn't see in other games. And a story that wasn't so black and white as "Good guy fighting to save the land from evil".

Maverickz wrote:

I beat the babel fish puzzle. Without hints.

[drops mic, walks off stage]

In Zork I? That's quite an achievement...

Robear wrote:
Maverickz wrote:

I beat the babel fish puzzle. Without hints.

[drops mic, walks off stage]

In Zork I? That's quite an achievement... :-)

You never found the babel fish in Zork I? Did you not climb the waterfall to get to the pool?

Robear wrote:
Maverickz wrote:

I beat the babel fish puzzle. Without hints.

[drops mic, walks off stage]

In Zork I? That's quite an achievement... :-)

The trick is to insert the babel fish into the stump shown below. Autowin, no can lose.
IMAGE(http://www.gameclassification.com/files/games/Transylvania.gif)

Tanglebones wrote:

Ok, I give up - wordiness is OK sometimes, but not other times

Yes? It's not like this is an all or nothing prospect where you can't both think a game is too wordy and enjoy text adventure games.

I haven't played Planescape Torment (*gasp*) but in my little wheelhouse of JRPGs, there are certainly ones that have way too much to read (Super Paper Mario) and ones that arguably have more text but make better use of it (Persona 3).

Maverickz isn't the first person I've seen to comment negatively on the volume of text in Planescape Torment. Again, I haven't played it, but having played a few other games of that time, I can easily see where that might be an issue.

Fallout had text descriptions of every character you met and every location you entered. They were, of course, entirely superfluous, because they were describing what you were already looking at: "You enter a dark cave. You hear the skittering of rats in the shadows," you read, looking at a screen of a dark cave filled with rats. Did Planescape have stuff like that? Did they do like Fallout and stick it on an easily-ignored status screen, or did they make you click through it? Was there vital information tucked in there so that you were required to read it? That could make the game feel wordy.

And those intricate conversations that everyone loves could easily be too long. Many writers stink at dialogue and take three or four lines to say what could be conveyed in one. Fantasy and science fiction novels in general are awful about this, and SF/F writing has a strong influence on games writing. Fallout was prone to denoting important conversations by making the characters correspond in lengthy, repetitive paragraphs. If every conversation had been like that, it would have gotten tedious quickly.

I know a lot of people love Planescape specifically for its writing, but that doesn't mean it's beyond critique.

maverickz wrote:

The trick is to insert the babel fish into the stump shown below. Autowin, no can lose.
IMAGE(http://www.gameclassification.com/files/games/Transylvania.gif)

Oh right, that's just before you fight the vampire. Did you have Hawkwind with you for that part?

IMAGE(http://www.myabandonware.com/media/captures/D/dragonworld/dragonworld_2.gif)

maverickz wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:
maverickz wrote:

Look, I'm just saying I'd like Torment: Numeral to be a little less wordy. I'm not trying to solve world peace here.

I hear those words, but it's like asking it to give up the thing that made it special. Also, with a Kickstarter budget, there isn't going to be anywhere near enough money for it to be voiced enough to get a Torment-dense script out.

Oh I disagree, I don't think it was the wordiness that made that place special. It was the weird characters and the weird world. Things you didn't see in other games. And a story that wasn't so black and white as "Good guy fighting to save the land from evil".

maverickz wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:
maverickz wrote:

Look, I'm just saying I'd like Torment: Numeral to be a little less wordy. I'm not trying to solve world peace here.

I hear those words, but it's like asking it to give up the thing that made it special. Also, with a Kickstarter budget, there isn't going to be anywhere near enough money for it to be voiced enough to get a Torment-dense script out.

Oh I disagree, I don't think it was the wordiness that made that place special. It was the weird characters and the weird world. Things you didn't see in other games. And a story that wasn't so black and white as "Good guy fighting to save the land from evil".

I just can't agree.

“How good could it be?” I thought, regarding the burgundy liquid carefully. Across the table from me, the twisted old man smiled slyly.

“Please, sir, try.” he whispered, his hushed voice the sound of dry leaves blown over a roughly cobbled street. “Thou shall find it more than lives up to thy expectations, I am sure.”

I nodded at him and lifted the crystal goblet into the air, watching the light play through the crimson liquor. I'd come a long way for this drink… searched long and hard for this old man… and I'd be damned to let anything rush me, now. The moment was to be savored.

I raised the glass to my lips, inhaling the stuff’s aroma. The bouquet was light, sweet, intoxicating… almost dizzyingly so. I'd tried countless drinks… written tomes about them, their flavors and smells, means of manufacture, in my journeys across the Planes. But this… this stuff was supposed to be legendary. No living man I'd found or heard of had tried the stuff. The stories were ridiculous — nothing could taste quite so good — but if there were the slightest bit of truth to them, this would be some fine liquor indeed.

At last, I drunk of the goblet, a cautious sip…

Incredible! Indescribable! As the flavor washed over my palette, I fought the urge to shudder with delight. Nothing… nothing I had tried in all my long years had tasted quite like this. I looked up at the old man, startled to find my glass empty — I had drained it all in a single draught. I wiped my eyes with the back of my hand, not entirely sure when I had begun to cry.

“Tears of joy, eh?” The old man laughed softly. “Quite pleasing to the tongue, is it not? Wouldst thou like some more, perchance?” He smiled at me once more.

“Yes… yes, if I might…”

“Surely.” he replied, refilling my glass. Try as I might, I could not resist downing it in a single gulp. I thrust my finger into the goblet in an attempt to find some last, hidden drop of the stuff. Several times more did he fill the goblet, and each time I gulped the stuff down as a starving man would devour a feast, unable to control myself, to deny myself another exquisite taste of it.

“A drink such as this… a man wouldst do anything for it, no?”

I nodded without hesitation. “Yes, a man would…” Looking at him, his sly smile suddenly took on a whole new meaning. A sense of horror began to creep over me, even as I began to yearn painfully for more of the blood-red liquor…

“Yes, yes…” The old man grinned, his yellow eyes gleaming. “A man wouldst do anything, in the thrall of such a drink… even the most terrible, the most heinous of deeds… as thou shall see, my newest servant.”

Is that from the game?

ClockworkHouse wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

Ok, I give up - wordiness is OK sometimes, but not other times

Yes? It's not like this is an all or nothing prospect where you can't both think a game is too wordy and enjoy text adventure games.

I haven't played Planescape Torment (*gasp*) but in my little wheelhouse of JRPGs, there are certainly ones that have way too much to read (Super Paper Mario) and ones that arguably have more text but make better use of it (Persona 3).

Maverickz isn't the first person I've seen to comment negatively on the volume of text in Planescape Torment. Again, I haven't played it, but having played a few other games of that time, I can easily see where that might be an issue.

Fallout had text descriptions of every character you met and every location you entered. They were, of course, entirely superfluous, because they were describing what you were already looking at: "You enter a dark cave. You hear the skittering of rats in the shadows," you read, looking at a screen of a dark cave filled with rats. Did Planescape have stuff like that? Did they do like Fallout and stick it on an easily-ignored status screen, or did they make you click through it? Was there vital information tucked in there so that you were required to read it? That could make the game feel wordy.

And those intricate conversations that everyone loves could easily be too long. Many writers stink at dialogue and take three or four lines to say what could be conveyed in one. Fantasy and science fiction novels in general are awful about this, and SF/F writing has a strong influence on games writing. Fallout was prone to denoting important conversations by making the characters correspond in lengthy, repetitive paragraphs. If every conversation had been like that, it would have gotten tedious quickly.

I know a lot of people love Planescape specifically for its writing, but that doesn't mean it's beyond critique.

Most of the story was delivered in huge, branching dialogues, parts of which were entirely hidden unless you had a high enough wisdom, charisma, or intelligence score. The only other way to deliver it would be through flashback cut-scenes, which mavericks also said he didn't like, or voiced dialogue, which would have been prohibitively expensive, not to mention technologically infeasible at the time. It was undeniably a wordy game, but that was one of it's selling points. Many of the major encounters fights could be avoided through dialogue. If wordy games or lots of dialogue aren't things you want in a game, then Planescape: Torment was not a game for you.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

Is that from the game?

Yup.

Granath wins the thread!

ClockworkHouse wrote:

Is that from the game?

IIRC, it's from the Sensorium, where people can relive the experiences of others. That one was the experience of someone becoming a vampire. Several of the experiences were recorded by The Nameless Ones' previous incarnations, or characters he encountered.

What Stengah said. Also, Clock, just play the damn thing already

In any case, I'm by no means saying that everyone has to like the game, just that the long, baroque texts are a central part of what made it special, IMO. To take that away from the game is to change its nature, and not for the better.

Wow. While PS:T remains one of my favorite games of all time, I'd forgotten just how good the writing was. I may have to reinstall it.

Tanglebones wrote:

What Stengah said. Also, Clock, just play the damn thing already

Doesn't she still have to play Anachronox first?

Stengah wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

What Stengah said. Also, Clock, just play the damn thing already

Doesn't she still have to play Anachronox first?

I voted for PS:T in that thread, so I'd accept it as a substitution

I'd also like those damn Mario games to have less jumping, why can't the whole level be a long hallway

Mex wrote:

I'd also like those damn Mario games to have less jumping, why can't the whole level be a long hallway :old:

They should get rid of the teams and make TF2 a deathmatch game.

Stengah wrote:
Mex wrote:

I'd also like those damn Mario games to have less jumping, why can't the whole level be a long hallway :old:

They should get rid of the teams and make TF2 a deathmatch game.

Stengah wrote:

Most of the story was delivered in huge, branching dialogues, parts of which were entirely hidden unless you had a high enough wisdom, charisma, or intelligence score. The only other way to deliver it would be through flashback cut-scenes, which mavericks also said he didn't like, or voiced dialogue, which would have been prohibitively expensive, not to mention technologically infeasible at the time. It was undeniably a wordy game, but that was one of it's selling points. Many of the major encounters fights could be avoided through dialogue. If wordy games or lots of dialogue aren't things you want in a game, then Planescape: Torment was not a game for you.

When did I say this?

I find it odd that several people here seem to consider the core experience of Torment to be a lot of reading. Really?

maverickz wrote:
Stengah wrote:

Most of the story was delivered in huge, branching dialogues, parts of which were entirely hidden unless you had a high enough wisdom, charisma, or intelligence score. The only other way to deliver it would be through flashback cut-scenes, which mavericks also said he didn't like, or voiced dialogue, which would have been prohibitively expensive, not to mention technologically infeasible at the time. It was undeniably a wordy game, but that was one of it's selling points. Many of the major encounters fights could be avoided through dialogue. If wordy games or lots of dialogue aren't things you want in a game, then Planescape: Torment was not a game for you.

When did I say this?

I find it odd that several people here seem to consider the core experience of Torment to be a lot of reading. Really?

It sure as hell wasn't the combat system

It was the deep philosophical descriptions, and the vast variety of responses, and how those responses shaped your character, your companions, and the world(s) around him.

Granath wrote:
maverickz wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:
maverickz wrote:

Look, I'm just saying I'd like Torment: Numeral to be a little less wordy. I'm not trying to solve world peace here.

I hear those words, but it's like asking it to give up the thing that made it special. Also, with a Kickstarter budget, there isn't going to be anywhere near enough money for it to be voiced enough to get a Torment-dense script out.

Oh I disagree, I don't think it was the wordiness that made that place special. It was the weird characters and the weird world. Things you didn't see in other games. And a story that wasn't so black and white as "Good guy fighting to save the land from evil".

maverickz wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:
maverickz wrote:

Look, I'm just saying I'd like Torment: Numeral to be a little less wordy. I'm not trying to solve world peace here.

I hear those words, but it's like asking it to give up the thing that made it special. Also, with a Kickstarter budget, there isn't going to be anywhere near enough money for it to be voiced enough to get a Torment-dense script out.

Oh I disagree, I don't think it was the wordiness that made that place special. It was the weird characters and the weird world. Things you didn't see in other games. And a story that wasn't so black and white as "Good guy fighting to save the land from evil".

I just can't agree.

“How good could it be?” I thought, regarding the burgundy liquid carefully. Across the table from me, the twisted old man smiled slyly.

“Please, sir, try.” he whispered, his hushed voice the sound of dry leaves blown over a roughly cobbled street. “Thou shall find it more than lives up to thy expectations, I am sure.”

I nodded at him and lifted the crystal goblet into the air, watching the light play through the crimson liquor. I'd come a long way for this drink… searched long and hard for this old man… and I'd be damned to let anything rush me, now. The moment was to be savored.

I raised the glass to my lips, inhaling the stuff’s aroma. The bouquet was light, sweet, intoxicating… almost dizzyingly so. I'd tried countless drinks… written tomes about them, their flavors and smells, means of manufacture, in my journeys across the Planes. But this… this stuff was supposed to be legendary. No living man I'd found or heard of had tried the stuff. The stories were ridiculous — nothing could taste quite so good — but if there were the slightest bit of truth to them, this would be some fine liquor indeed.

At last, I drunk of the goblet, a cautious sip…

Incredible! Indescribable! As the flavor washed over my palette, I fought the urge to shudder with delight. Nothing… nothing I had tried in all my long years had tasted quite like this. I looked up at the old man, startled to find my glass empty — I had drained it all in a single draught. I wiped my eyes with the back of my hand, not entirely sure when I had begun to cry.

“Tears of joy, eh?” The old man laughed softly. “Quite pleasing to the tongue, is it not? Wouldst thou like some more, perchance?” He smiled at me once more.

“Yes… yes, if I might…”

“Surely.” he replied, refilling my glass. Try as I might, I could not resist downing it in a single gulp. I thrust my finger into the goblet in an attempt to find some last, hidden drop of the stuff. Several times more did he fill the goblet, and each time I gulped the stuff down as a starving man would devour a feast, unable to control myself, to deny myself another exquisite taste of it.

“A drink such as this… a man wouldst do anything for it, no?”

I nodded without hesitation. “Yes, a man would…” Looking at him, his sly smile suddenly took on a whole new meaning. A sense of horror began to creep over me, even as I began to yearn painfully for more of the blood-red liquor…

“Yes, yes…” The old man grinned, his yellow eyes gleaming. “A man wouldst do anything, in the thrall of such a drink… even the most terrible, the most heinous of deeds… as thou shall see, my newest servant.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_...

maverickz wrote:
Stengah wrote:

Most of the story was delivered in huge, branching dialogues, parts of which were entirely hidden unless you had a high enough wisdom, charisma, or intelligence score. The only other way to deliver it would be through flashback cut-scenes, which mavericks also said he didn't like, or voiced dialogue, which would have been prohibitively expensive, not to mention technologically infeasible at the time. It was undeniably a wordy game, but that was one of it's selling points. Many of the major encounters fights could be avoided through dialogue. If wordy games or lots of dialogue aren't things you want in a game, then Planescape: Torment was not a game for you.

When did I say this?

Looking back, you didn't I misread " I don't want info dumps in my games, or movies." to mean you didn't want info dumps or movies in your games, not that you didn't want info dumps in either your games or your movies.

On a slightly more related note, I would totally read a Planescape: Torment book. But apparently the official novelization isn't good.

maverickz wrote:

On a slightly more related note, I would totally read a Planescape: Torment book. But apparently the official novelization isn't good.

I enjoyed it when I read it (when I was maybe 15?), but it is pretty different than the game.

QFT

Stengah wrote:

Doesn't she still have to play Anachronox first?

Context is everything.

If you don't like text, there are plenty of games to play. Torment isn't one of them.

Ok, I'm in for $28. I was hesitant at first given that I've never made it more than a few hours into the original PS:T despite numerous attempts... but sure, I can get behind this.

Granath wrote:

Context is everything.

If you don't like text, there are plenty of games to play. Torment isn't one of them.

That part of the game was deliberately meant to extremely descriptive text, as you were reliving someone else's experience. If it were done today, it could be done with a cut-scene, but perhaps not, as it wouldn't capture the experience as completely as the text could.

Tanstaafl wrote:

You never found the babel fish in Zork I? Did you not climb the waterfall to get to the pool?

Huh. I remembered it from Hitchhiker's Guide... Now you're screwing with me.

Robear wrote:
Tanstaafl wrote:

You never found the babel fish in Zork I? Did you not climb the waterfall to get to the pool?

Huh. I remembered it from Hitchhiker's Guide... Now you're screwing with me. :-)

IMAGE(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpu26ggu641qj1cg2o1_500.jpg)