Boy Scouts reconsidering policy against gay membership

clover wrote:
There is CampFire but it's a regional thing, I think. It certainly doesn't have the same brand recognition as BSA but it is a well-established alternative.

Thankfully Girl Scouts got out in front of this issue and avoided most of these problems.

Which prompted theocon f*ckbones to form their own splinter group, the American Heritage Girls. I suppose it's the larger amounts of money involved that have prevented Boy Scouts from going the same way.

MacBrave wrote:
The primary reason the military provides that support is because they believe it is a good recruiting tool.

I can definitely see that. There'd be a certain appeal to having a pipeline coming from a pool of young men inculcated in the values of an organization founded by a Christian imperialist.

It's worked splendidly for America so far.

Boy joined the cubscouts a couple of years ago, but he's already starting to lose interest now that he's a weeblo. I think because he's seeing the clique-y behavior of the Baptists against everyone else. Despite the fact that the scouts use our public schools, pay no fees to keep the lights on extra, or pay for the maintenance people who clean up afters, or any of that, they still feel justified in demanding worship of some hairy sky father, and feel completely justified in calling the house with robocalls to go support Chick-McAntiFag because ..."the gay menace".

I didn't want him to join the BSA, I really don't like giving money to the BSA, and if I had any other option for a similar type group in our area that was not controlled by religious whackadoodles and cultists, I would totally throw money at them.

I was a Girl Scout all the way to gold star. (Eagle Scout equiv.) I loved scouting. I was absolutely prepared to be a part of scouting for my son. Until I found out that the BSA are about as far away from scouting as I understand it, as you could possibly get. I wish the Girl Scouts had a Boy alternative. The Girl Scouts rocked.

Stupid double clicking early morning not enough coffee doubleposts.

I dropped out as a Weeblo scout because A) I remember an instance where a losing "team" leader in some competition had to do push ups and I hated push ups, and B) my dad was very involved in scouts because my brothers and I were scouts and for f*ck's sake, I got enough of him telling me what to do at home.

I remember a co-worker with whom I was friendly having issue with the Girl Scout's liberal policies and wouldn't let his daughters join. He and his wife were parents to six (!) daughters, ultra-religious, and home schooled them. While we were friendly, we agreed to disagree on a lot of issues.

I'm confused, isn't one of the boy scout values tolerance?

Also, listening to all the right-wing anti-gay rights nutjobs so excited on NPR last night almost caused a rage stroke. "Why should we alter a tradition of over 100 years?" Oh, I dunno, why did we alter the tradition of slavery in America? It has been going for quite a while too. Appeals to "traditional values" to justify bigotry really annoy the hell out of me.

Demosthenes wrote:
I'm confused, isn't one of the boy scout values tolerance?

A Scout is

Trustworthy
Loyal
Helpful
Friendly
Courteous
Kind
Obedient
Cheerful
Thirfty
Brave
Clean
and Reverent

It's perfectly possible to be courteous to heathens. Also, people, it's Webelos: WE BE LOyal Scouts. Yeesh, have some respect for the poor bigots.

nel e nel wrote:
Also, people, it's Webelos: WE BE LOyal Scouts. Yeesh, have some respect for the poor bigots. ;)

Further explication from this guy:

Blogger type dude wrote:
Scouting is a grand tradition based on the Spartan notion of introducing military structure into children’s lives as early as possible, though admittedly in a real fluffy kind of way. ... by the 5th grade we all made Mighty Webelo, which is Indian for something like, “little white bastards adopt the ways of our people in a real half assed manner”. That might not be verbatim.

Weebles, for the uninitiated, are something different. They may wobble, but these motherf*ckers will never fall down.

Friendly
Courteous
Kind

All of which I would equate, together, to being tolerant of those that are different. Apparently not.

Demosthenes wrote:
Friendly
Courteous
Kind

All of which I would equate, together, to being tolerant of those that are different. Apparently not.


Atheists cannot be good people, and you don't have to be nice to bad people.

When people say webelo, all I can think of is this:

IMAGE(http://pbfcomics.com/archive_b/PBF071-Weeaboo.gif)

Stengah wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:
Friendly
Courteous
Kind

All of which I would equate, together, to being tolerant of those that are different. Apparently not.


Atheists cannot be good people, and you don't have to be nice to bad people.

Actually, by being nice to a bad person you are helping them be bad, and hence, are doing bad yourself.

Yonder wrote:
Stengah wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:
Friendly
Courteous
Kind

All of which I would equate, together, to being tolerant of those that are different. Apparently not.


Atheists cannot be good people, and you don't have to be nice to bad people.

Actually, by being nice to a bad person you are helping them be bad, and hence, are doing bad yourself.

...given we are talking about being nice to either a religious choice or a sexuality, neither of those can really be classified as bad, just different, which is what both the BSA and a lot of other groups seem to be missing... while they use exactly that kind of thinking to justify it.

So, I (and I'm assuming all Scouting parents) received a survey request from the BSA this weekend asking for feedback on the proposed policy changes. It included feedback on specific scenarios (Are you ok with gay scout leaders being on overnights with young boys?, etc.) as well as some general questions on our Scouting experience. I said my piece.

Feels like the org as a whole is trying to figure out which way the wind is blowing before making any changes. Quite frankly, that seems spineless and demonstrates a lack of leadership from a brand whose core product is supposed to be a moral and ethical framework for developing future leaders.

GioClark wrote:
So, I (and I'm assuming all Scouting parents) received a survey request from the BSA this weekend asking for feedback on the proposed policy changes. It included feedback on specific scenarios (Are you ok with gay scout leaders being on overnights with young boys?, etc.) as well as some general questions on our Scouting experience. I said my piece.

Feels like the org as a whole is trying to figure out which way the wind is blowing before making any changes. Quite frankly, that seems spineless and demonstrates a lack of leadership from a brand whose core product is supposed to be a moral and ethical framework for developing future leaders.

My emphasis.

That type of question is a dog whistle. It is a pernicious attempt to equate homosexuality with pedophilia and play to the emotions of parents.

I am willing to bet that any significant response to that question show parental discomfort with a gay scout leader being on an overnight with young boys will be used as the justification for keeping the current policy in place.

Phoenix Rev wrote:
My emphasis.

That type of question is a dog whistle. It is a pernicious attempt to equate homosexuality with pedophilia and play to the emotions of parents.

I am willing to bet that any significant response to that question show parental discomfort with a gay scout leader being on an overnight with young boys will be used as the justification for keeping the current policy in place.

BSA has a huge problem. It's current board of directors all sit on companies who do not allow any policies of discrimination. It'll be interesting to see where they take this and frankly, will probably determine how much longer I'm involved with Scouting.

I do find it odd that people are attempting to correlate gay scout leaders with pedophiles. I've heard this very concern voiced at our meetings. I've found a very simple question that usually shuts the conversation down. I just ask them if, as a heterosexual, if they're attracted to teenage girls. I usually get a strange look then the conversation ends.

GioClark wrote:
So, I (and I'm assuming all Scouting parents) received a survey request from the BSA this weekend asking for feedback on the proposed policy changes.

I haven't received any survey. Was this via email or snail mail?

Here's the full list of questions from the survey according to the Wall Street Journal.

Phoenix Rev wrote:
Here's the full list of questions from the survey according to the Wall Street Journal.

Good comment in that story, the BSA is asking its current members only. I've already decided the kid me and my wife have whenever will be spending weekends with her father and brother for wilderness training unless something changes. We would never get into scouts without some big changes occuring.

MacBrave wrote:
GioClark wrote:
So, I (and I'm assuming all Scouting parents) received a survey request from the BSA this weekend asking for feedback on the proposed policy changes.

I haven't received any survey. Was this via email or snail mail?

Might be moot, but this was via email. PhoenixRev's link is accurate.

In two-steps-forward-one-step-back news, the Church of Latter Day Saints has given its blessing to the recent Boy Scouts of America's proposal to finally allow gay scouts. Gay scout leaders, however, will continue to be banned from the organization.

To ensure that no gay scouts grow up to become gay scout leaders, the Scouts have added a new merit badge requirement for their newly accepted homosexual members: the Conversion Therapy badge.

OG_slinger wrote:
In two-steps-forward-one-step-back news, the Church of Latter Day Saints has given its blessing to the recent Boy Scouts of America's proposal to finally allow gay scouts. Gay scout leaders, however, will continue to be banned from the organization.

To ensure that no gay scouts grow up to become gay scout leaders, the Scouts have added a new merit badge requirement for their newly accepted homosexual members: the Conversion Therapy badge.

Does this mean that they are now discriminating based upon age?

OG_slinger wrote:
In two-steps-forward-one-step-back news, the Church of Latter Day Saints has given its blessing to the recent Boy Scouts of America's proposal to finally allow gay scouts. Gay scout leaders, however, will continue to be banned from the organization.

To ensure that no gay scouts grow up to become gay scout leaders, the Scouts have added a new merit badge requirement for their newly accepted homosexual members: the Conversion Therapy badge.

The news about the proposal to allow gay scouts came out during the whole Boston thing. So, they either have incredibly bad timing or they were trying to bury the lede.

Demosthenes wrote:
Does this mean that they are now discriminating based upon age?

I think it means the Church of Latter Day Saints likes little boys more than men.

I can easily see a lawsuit starting with...

"I am 46, was in scouts when I was a kid and it made me a better person, now I'm not allowed to because I am 'too old' to be able to take a position that my sexual orientation allows." Bam, double discrimination, and you should be able to get other organizations to back that fight up (AARP comes to mind, as they generally fight anything about age discrimination).

Demosthenes wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:
In two-steps-forward-one-step-back news, the Church of Latter Day Saints has given its blessing to the recent Boy Scouts of America's proposal to finally allow gay scouts. Gay scout leaders, however, will continue to be banned from the organization.

To ensure that no gay scouts grow up to become gay scout leaders, the Scouts have added a new merit badge requirement for their newly accepted homosexual members: the Conversion Therapy badge.

Does this mean that they are now discriminating based upon age?

More likely they are discriminating against intelligent people who understand the difference between nature and nurture.

I was a boy scout, and worked several summers at the local boy scout camp.
I was furious when they first announced their 'no gays or atheists' policy. I was downright appalled that they were able to continue reviving preferential government treatment despite those policies.

For me the damage is done. I seriously doubt BSA will ever redeem itself in my eyes. Sure they *could* it isn't physically impossible but in the real world... never going to happen.

I strongly recommend to all my friends with children of 'scouting' age that they look for an alternative organization, start one, or just opt out of the idea.
Not everyone agrees, and I respect those who do not, but for me it is a mater of just saying NO to hate, bigotry, mixing them with government, and those who promote such ideas.

Who can say they are a truly principled person that should be an example for your child, and still runs a boy scout troup instead of some alternative? I think hate and bigotry are when we don't stand up, and pay our fees as much it is a few active people setting the policy.

nel e nel wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:
In two-steps-forward-one-step-back news, the Church of Latter Day Saints has given its blessing to the recent Boy Scouts of America's proposal to finally allow gay scouts. Gay scout leaders, however, will continue to be banned from the organization.

To ensure that no gay scouts grow up to become gay scout leaders, the Scouts have added a new merit badge requirement for their newly accepted homosexual members: the Conversion Therapy badge.

Does this mean that they are now discriminating based upon age?

More likely they are discriminating against intelligent people who understand the difference between nature and nurture.

I will pray for you after retroactively baptising you a Mormon.

retroactively baptising

Wait... what?

nel e nel wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:
In two-steps-forward-one-step-back news, the Church of Latter Day Saints has given its blessing to the recent Boy Scouts of America's proposal to finally allow gay scouts. Gay scout leaders, however, will continue to be banned from the organization.

To ensure that no gay scouts grow up to become gay scout leaders, the Scouts have added a new merit badge requirement for their newly accepted homosexual members: the Conversion Therapy badge.

Does this mean that they are now discriminating based upon age?

More likely they are discriminating against intelligent people who understand the difference between nature and nurture.

I also find it hilarious that a group that has a LOT of off-shoot cult branches that marry kids off at like 13 and 14 is so worried about sexual abuse in children in a different group. Next thing you know, the Catholic Church will be talking about protecting innocent boy scouts from gay troop leaders to avoid child molesters.