Steam Box Catch-All

I've been using Linux (and before that, BSD) for almost 20 years. I'll take whatever we can get: gaming via Steam works just fine on my various installations, and it's at least as good as the old Loki ports were.

(Not understanding the Steam issues, as I don't have them.)

Let me put it this way: if and when Steam allows other storefronts without SteamOS, then I will believe the cries of "open source" were anything but marketing material.

Let me put it this way: I don't see how Valve could stop other storefronts, unless they ship hardware boxes that are locked down, and they've made no indication that they plan to do this.

merphle wrote:

Yeah. I have to assume this isn't much more than some existing Linux variant

SteamDB says Valve has a GitHub repo which is branched off Ubuntu 12.04

AP Erebus wrote:

It's slow, cumbersome and generally not that much fun to use.

1) This is a great opportunity for them to do another UI refresh (remember how slow the previous iteration was)
2) This is a great opportunity for them to move away from Adobe Flash/Air for the UI and go with a native app

AP Erebus wrote:

As someone said (I think Malor), the Steam windows app is not that impressive. It's slow, cumbersome and generally not that much fun to use.

While true, compared to what it's competing with...

IMAGE(http://beefjack.com/files/2012/01/Xbox-Dashboard-to-devote-more-space-to-ads.jpg)

... whoops, I mean ...

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/mHXurDo.jpg)

... it's a dream.

I wouldn't be so negative about the streaming feature. Sony is playing up their version of this big time in the Vita and Vita TV's ability to stream PS4 games.

I think it's kind of a big deal if it works properly. I might even be able to use my present (ancient hardware) MythTV system as a frontend for some Windows box somewhere. It still means running Windows for some games, but I'll only need one for the entire house, and at least I'll be able to hide the abomination in a closet somewhere while using Linux as the primary OS for the machines I actually use for non-gaming.

gore wrote:

I wouldn't be so negative about the streaming feature. Sony is playing up their version of this big time in the Vita and Vita TV's ability to stream PS4 games.

And it's basically the underlying technology behind the Wii U except that doesn't make use of your WiFi network so the range is only in the 10s of feet.

gore wrote:

I wouldn't be so negative about the streaming feature. Sony is playing up their version of this big time in the Vita and Vita TV's ability to stream PS4 games.

I think it's kind of a big deal if it works properly. I might even be able to use my present (ancient hardware) MythTV system as a frontend for some Windows box somewhere. It still means running Windows for some games, but I'll only need one for the entire house, and at least I'll be able to hide the abomination in a closet somewhere while using Linux as the primary OS for the machines I actually use for non-gaming.

It's probably adding a couple of frames worth of delay, even in house, partially depending on how much processing power you have on your main PC.

So for games like Saint's Row, it's probably no big deal. However, if you're playing COD or Street Fighter, it's going to hurt your competitiveness. And when you add in the display lag TVs often have in comparison to PC monitors, and any other potential lag in your HDMI chain (AVR, etc), it will be noticeable to higher skill players in these games where frame timing matters a lot. And Sony's stuff will have the same challenges.

They'll be good enough for most things for most people, but some won't like the necessary lag for certain types of games. While there will be some gamers that never notice it due to their skill level not really having it matter much anyway, on some will find it a deal breaker.

I think where they'll get buy is that a lot of these types of big screen games are either single player or non-seriously competitive games. If you're playing competitive shooters, you'll probably just stick to M&K anyway.

It's probably adding a couple of frames worth of delay, even in house, partially depending on how much processing power you have on your main PC.

People were mentioning, on Reddit, that all the current (decent) graphic cards have onboard H.264 encode support, so it won't be as bad as doing it with the CPU. They might be able to get it down to one extra frame or so of latency. But then the TV will usually add a couple frames, and that can start to get noticeable.

But, is the H.264 stuff on dedicated hardware? If not, there may not be enough power to both do 3D acceleration, and then encode the video quickly.

Hasn't Intel been packing video codec routines into their chips since Sandy or Ivy Bridge? I seem to recall a number of review sites showing interest in video encoding performance in recent years.

EDIT: Yup, I'm remembering this correctly. Although there doesn't appear to be any Linux support from Intel. Doesn't mean Valve couldn't have done their own implementation for their OS.

EDIT 2: More mentions of Valve taking an interest in Sandy Bridge: Portal 2 rendering optimizations for the chip along with Intel IPT for Steam Guard.

What'd be really cool is if one can pare the distro down and basically just run one process at a time (the game) and make it more like a console, maybe even going so far as to disable virtual memory.

What'd be really cool is if one can pare the distro down and basically just run one process at a time (the game) and make it more like a console, maybe even going so far as to disable virtual memory.

Not really feasible, at least on Linux. The kernel starts tons of processes; a quick check on my lightly-loaded home server shows 68 kernel threads. (via ps xa | awk "{print \$5}" | grep "\[" | wc -l)

It would be really cool if programs could have access to the bare hardware, but without the many layers of abstraction and the hardware drivers, you'd basically need a separate version of the program for every possible combination of hardware. And you'd have to re-implement (at least) OpenGL, which would be painful.

Now, what they maybe could do is run Steam in Linux framebuffer mode, instead of dragging along X Windows, but then they still need OpenGL, which I think is X-only. Reimplementing that would be extremely difficult, but it would get a lot closer to giving programs straight hardware access than even the new consoles are giving out. A pure Linux framebuffer system running a game would be fast as hell.

You'd still have dozens of processes running, but it would be pretty close to what you're thinking of.

psst, did you hear?
malor's a nerd

Malor, wanna be a guinea pig?
https://github.com/ReturnInfinity/Ba...
I'd love to see benchmarks of the same programs on BareMetalOS and Linux.

Couldn't you just use the top command Malor?

mrwynd wrote:

Couldn't you just use the top command Malor?

Well, yes, but top only lists one screenful, and I knew I had many more. "ps xa" lists everything without stopping, but mixes together kernel threads (which have [ and ] around them) with user processes. So, I did a ps xa to print the names, gave the output to awk, which printed the fifth column (the name), and grep searched for the [ character. That gave a list of processes with [ in the name, and then wc -l counted them.

This was way faster than counting manually, because:

groan wrote:

psst, did you hear?
malor's a nerd

I am, of course, required to sig that.

Oh, and after a quick look, BareMetal OS looks interesting, but I'm not sure it will run anything useful enough to do any meaningful benchmarking, at least not yet. I think I could get it running, but getting even very basic stuff up (like the GNU utilities) looks like it would be quite painful.

I dunno, maybe I'm not as interested in the TV box for steam games.

I don't own a console at the minute (well, except for a Wii), so I don't really think of my TV for gaming.

AP Erebus wrote:

I dunno, maybe I'm not as interested in the TV box for steam games.

I don't own a console at the minute (well, except for a Wii), so I don't really think of my TV for gaming.

Dude, get yourself an Xbox controller and an HDMI cable, there's a bunch of great games on Steam that support controllers.

I'm very interested to see which 'AAA' titles and publishers they have lined up for 2014 release on SteamOS. While I agree that initially the SteamOS/Box implementation may not be perfect, anything that gets the trend of Linux and Gaming moving forward is a plus point for me. I have no interest in completely replacing either my Windows, or my Linux box at home, they are both required for specific functions/work. Gaming is a different environment, mentally, for me. So, being able to buy an ugly, noisy, super-powered PC running Windows hidden away somewhere, and streaming to either an HTPC-a-like under the TV, or even dual-booting a semi-decent laptop with SteamOS over Gigabit LAN really would make me all sorts of giddy.

Basically, while the immediate news is good, and upcoming news (depending on 'AAA' titles/publishers) could be good, I think this will lead to a great future. In a few years time, whoc knows where this idea could be..

I am honored. I think that's my first official sigging. Only took almost 10 years!

So are you a console or a Steam gamer...

Nvidia is already doing this with their Shield Device.. I have it and it works "ok". The big challenge is that you go from a 1080P+ source to a 720P screen.. so things can look weird especially with games that are not "optimized". You are essentially playing the game remotely from your main gaming PC.. the game launches.. and essentially plays on the PC. I suspect this will work similarly. I would guess you have less to worry from Microsoft and more to worry from Nvidia who is looking to launch their own set-top box for game streaming as well as Nvidia Tegra 4 tablets for streaming as well. Nvidia might look at Valve as a competitor and freeze out if your system is using Nvidia video cards... unlikely but as revenue gets squeezed stranger things have happened.

I doubt Microsoft will worry that much about this.. as it still requires a "gaming PC" as well as a Windows License to run Steam and acquire all the games you want to stream. The amount of users that give up on the next gen for this is a tiny %..outweighed far more by the double dippers (myself). Linux native games will still very much be beholden to the publishers to authorize the ports.. sure the indie scene will take to Steam on Linux but that really doesnt move the needle for the AAA (console) world.

This ars article has me very very excited about the OS, box and it's future.

TheGameguru wrote:

Nvidia might look at Valve as a competitor [...]

I see nvidia more as a partner than a competitor in this. A successful SteamOS would be good for devices like the nvidia shield or the razer edge, and allow that market to develop. OS-wise there aren't many options right now for these manufacturers. They can go with windows for the largest library of games but I imagine it is not trivial and certainly not free to license. A full blown OS might not be what makes sense for the device either.

TheGameguru wrote:

The amount of users that give up on the next gen for this is a tiny %..outweighed far more by the double dippers (myself). Linux native games will still very much be beholden to the publishers to authorize the ports.. sure the indie scene will take to Steam on Linux but that really doesnt move the needle for the AAA (console) world.

On its own, with what we presently know, I'd agree with this. It's certainly a cool toy for those already invested in the Steam ecosystem, but it's not even close to being a competitor for the next gen consoles.

But... I still suspect Valve has some more interesting up its sleeve.

Malor wrote:
mrwynd wrote:

Couldn't you just use the top command Malor?

Well, yes, but top only lists one screenful, and I knew I had many more. "ps xa" lists everything without stopping, but mixes together kernel threads (which have [ and ] around them) with user processes. So, I did a ps xa to print the names, gave the output to awk, which printed the fifth column (the name), and grep searched for the [ character. That gave a list of processes with [ in the name, and then wc -l counted them.

This was way faster than counting manually, because:

groan wrote:

psst, did you hear?
malor's a nerd

I am, of course, required to sig that.

Ah, my top shows a number of total running processes above the list. Does it leave some out in its count? I've done some server admin for LAMP servers but I'm not an expert. I'm genuinely curious.

More on topic, do you think increased popularity on Linux could lead to new piracy or cheating? With new code comes vulnerabilities, at least my history in support leads me to this conclusion.

django wrote:

I see nvidia more as a partner than a competitor in this.

Gabe directly mentioned what nVidia was doing which makes it likely they're a partner especially if their streaming technology is driver or hardware based. While I guess nVidia might not want competition with Shield, I can't see how locking out users from streaming to a St(r)eamBox is going to win them many fans among PC gamers.

gore wrote:

But... I still suspect Valve has some more interesting up its sleeve.

I wonder if they've managed to make a wrapper similar to Cider as a stop-gap solution until developers are capable of directly porting to Linux

They certainly would be a direct competitor if Nvidia launches their own set-top to stream from Nvidia based PC's...

I can't see how locking out users from streaming to a St(r)eamBox is going to win them many fans among PC gamers.

Given there are exactly 2 guys left in the GPU world..its not like Gamers have a choice.. forcing them down the AMD path probably won't work given how many are so anti-AMD/ATI these days.

TheGameguru wrote:

forcing them down the AMD path probably won't work given how many are so anti-AMD/ATI these days.

AMD also doesn't seem to have an interest in streaming which is problematic.

Theoretically, Valve could make a cheap streamer only box for $100 running a decent ARM processor like Tegra 4 with this and sell it for $100 as a companion device to a real PC (Nvidia Shield minus the expensive touch screen, etc). Linux already works on ARM processors, so you could have a distribution that works for this more limited box. Think a bit beefier Raspberry Pi.