The Federal Prop. 8 Trial / Gay Marriage Catch-All

Elysia wrote:


Found it.

[size=10]*wanders away, muttering about pseudoscience*[/size]

IMAGE(http://cdn.styleforum.net/9/92/305x204px-LL-92710d34_its-a-christmas-miracle-thumb.jpeg)

Seth wrote:
that trolley guy wrote:

Grubbs' message went on to suggest Maryland residents contact their lawmakers to "request they amend the new marriage law to allow an exemption for religious conviction for the layperson in the pew. The law exempts my minister from doing same-sex weddings, and the Knights of Columbus don't have to rent out their hall for a gay wedding reception, but somehow my religious convictions don't count for anything."

This brings up an interesting thought. If Grubbs shut down his business, opened a church, and provided the trolley as a service of the church, would he be able to skirt the laws?

KingGorilla wrote:

If he were an arm of a religious institution, sure. The Knights of Columbus is a private religious fraternal organization. They are like the Masons or Shriners, with more trinity.

My major qualm is that these organizations get direct funding and tax subsidies from state, local, and federal entities while being agents of hate.

Where this twit sees an unfair loophole that he should be able to exploit, I see state sponsored hate.

I am not sure that making the trolley business an arm of the church would automatically give Grubbs the right to skirt the law. For instance, he could not open a hotel via the church and then claim that only Christians could stay in the hotel. The SCOTUS has said many times that churches that offer any type of public accommodation (i.e. general business services) are subject to the same business regulations as any other business. This is why the churches here in Maricopa County are subject to having their kitchens inspected by the county health inspector and the religious store that many churches have are subject to sales tax, etc.

If the church offered this to people married in the church, I think they could skirt around that. In the same way a church may offer their banquet hall for wedding receptions only to people wed in that church.

KingGorilla wrote:

If the church offered this to people married in the church, I think they could skirt around that. In the same way a church may offer their banquet hall for wedding receptions only to people wed in that church.

Agreed, but that would be interesting to see how willing Grubbs would be to allowing non-adherents to his church's teachings to be married in his church (assuming, of course, he had that say).

Back before my dad retired (he was a minister), I was with him when somebody just came in off the street and asked if the church was available for weddings. He replied that they were a church and not a wedding chapel, and he would love it if they would join the family of the church and be welcomed there prior to their wedding, as only members or their families were married at that church. So, in other words, the whole "only marry members of your church" thing? That's how it currently goes in many places. This guy's just being his usual dickish self and making up more asinine scare stories.

It wouldn't mind if a church I was considering allowed gay marriage, but if free beer was served before passing the collection plate, you could probably count me in every Sunday.

I think I speak for most of America.

Paleocon wrote:

It wouldn't mind if a church I was considering allowed gay marriage, but if free beer was served before passing the collection plate, you could probably count me in every Sunday.

I think I speak for most of America.

I think I will move to Colorado and start a Church of Weed.

I'll Nth the Milkman's post. At our church, not only do you have to be a member, you and your spouse have to attend a series of marriage counseling sessions with some trained counselors as part of the package before they'll allow you to be married there.

momgamer wrote:

I'll Nth the Milkman's post. At our church, not only do you have to be a member, you and your spouse have to attend a series of marriage counseling sessions with some trained counselors as part of the package before they'll allow you to be married there.

It was precisely this sort of crap that resulted in our odd decision to get married in a practically all-white Presbyterian church despite our having no connection to it. I was raised Papist (I know it is a pejorative) while she was raised Baptist (its own pejorative). Nether would let us marry in the church without similar restrictions, so we told them to politely fornicate with themselves.

Paleocon wrote:
momgamer wrote:

I'll Nth the Milkman's post. At our church, not only do you have to be a member, you and your spouse have to attend a series of marriage counseling sessions with some trained counselors as part of the package before they'll allow you to be married there.

It was precisely this sort of crap that resulted in our odd decision to get married in a practically all-white Presbyterian church despite our having no connection to it. I was raised Papist (I know it is a pejorative) while she was raised Baptist (its own pejorative). Nether would let us marry in the church without similar restrictions, so we told them to politely fornicate with themselves.

And our Pastor would think that was a perfectly awesome choice. He loves to marry people, but he is also thinking of the rest of the life. If you don't want that sort of input, he's a bad choice.

And it's not limiting. I don't think my elder daughter is going to have her ceremony there (her fiance wants a Magic the Gathering tournament as part of the reception and it really doesn't have good facilities for that, for one thing), and I know my elder son and his fiance are going to elope and just have a big party when they get home.

Jayhawker wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

It wouldn't mind if a church I was considering allowed gay marriage, but if free beer was served before passing the collection plate, you could probably count me in every Sunday.

I think I speak for most of America.

I think I will move to Colorado and start a Church of Weed.

You have my sword.

momgamer wrote:

I'll Nth the Milkman's post. At our church, not only do you have to be a member, you and your spouse have to attend a series of marriage counseling sessions with some trained counselors as part of the package before they'll allow you to be married there.

Is this a celibate priest offering relationship advice type counseling session? I never could quite wrap my brain around that.

Either way, our churches in the area are all pretty big on the same thing (being a member of the church, counselling sessions). There's a reason me and my wife just got married in the backyard instead.

Demosthenes wrote:
momgamer wrote:

I'll Nth the Milkman's post. At our church, not only do you have to be a member, you and your spouse have to attend a series of marriage counseling sessions with some trained counselors as part of the package before they'll allow you to be married there.

Is this a celibate priest offering relationship advice type counseling session? I never could quite wrap my brain around that.

Either way, our churches in the area are all pretty big on the same thing (being a member of the church, counselling sessions). There's a reason me and my wife just got married in the backyard instead. :)

Nope, he's not celibate. And in fact, he's been married twice. That's why he's so into making sure people have the tools to negotiate their new life together before they leap the broom.

momgamer wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:
momgamer wrote:

I'll Nth the Milkman's post. At our church, not only do you have to be a member, you and your spouse have to attend a series of marriage counseling sessions with some trained counselors as part of the package before they'll allow you to be married there.

Is this a celibate priest offering relationship advice type counseling session? I never could quite wrap my brain around that.

Either way, our churches in the area are all pretty big on the same thing (being a member of the church, counselling sessions). There's a reason me and my wife just got married in the backyard instead. :)

Nope, he's not celibate. And in fact, he's been married twice. That's why he's so into making sure people have the tools to negotiate their new life together before they leap the broom.

The preacher at the Presbyterian place made us fill out questionaires and sit around talking with him for half an hour. He read what we wrote and said "Yeah, you two seem pretty well screwed together" (he was a former Army chaplain) and used up most of the half hour telling us not to stress about all the crap we were already stressing about.

I told him that if he served booze in the pews, he could count on me every Sunday. He laughed and said "We ain't Catholic".

AND MY AXE

Jayhawker wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I wouldn't mind if a church I was considering allowed gay marriage, but if free beer was served before passing the collection plate, you could probably count me in every Sunday.

I think I speak for most of America.

I think I will move to Colorado and start a Church of Weed.

During the Middle Ages, beer used to be the safest way of keeping potable water. As such, the job of the European brewmaster was not a frivolous profession. It was a necessary part of a healthy functioning society. It didn't take long for the Church to recognize the utility in this, well, utility and thus started the tradition of doling out beer after services to ensure proper godly attendance.

With modern sanitation, this practice gradually declined.

So did Christianity.

If I recall my beer history, the Church was also largely responsible for the shift in brewing away from a female dominated activity and into a male dominated activity. Prior to the European monks, the brewing of beer was done by the same people who made bread, which was typically a woman's responsibility.

Seth wrote:

If I recall my beer history, the Church was also largely responsible for the shift in brewing away from a female dominated activity and into a male dominated activity. Prior to the European monks, the brewing of beer was done by the same people who made bread, which was typically a woman's responsibility.

Hmm. Entirely possible.

Add women to the list of things I want in my beer church.

Seth wrote:
KingGorilla wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:

I think I will move to Colorado and start a Church of Weed.

You have my sword.

AND MY AXE

You carry the fate of us all, stoned one. If it is indeed the will of the Goodjers, then Farscry will see it done.

Farscry wrote:
Seth wrote:
KingGorilla wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:

I think I will move to Colorado and start a Church of Weed.

You have my sword.

AND MY AXE

You carry the fate of us all, stoned one. If it is indeed the will of the Goodjers, then Farscry will see it done.

I wish this bong had never come to the Shire.

This is the last of the Longbottom Leaf. Keep it secret, keep it SAFE!

Oh right, gay marriage and after wedding party buses.

Sorry we went down a hobbit hole there.

Jayhawker wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

It wouldn't mind if a church I was considering allowed gay marriage, but if free beer was served before passing the collection plate, you could probably count me in every Sunday.

I think I speak for most of America.

I think I will move to Colorado and start a Church of Weed.

You all need to join the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church.

Hooray!!! Bigoted public servants in a county in Maryland to get a pass for not doing their jobs!

When same-sex marriage becomes legal in Maryland next week, some employees in the St. Mary's County Circuit Court will stop performing marriages, passing the duty on to other employees.

"There are some [deputy clerks] that have voiced some opposition to doing it -- [they have] religious feelings about it ... so it's basically my idea that they won't do any marriage at all," said Joan Williams, clerk of the St. Mary's County Circuit Court. "Some people are just very against same-sex marriages, and I have to respect their reasons and their decisions."

These so-called "public servants" need to be told either to do their damn jobs or be fired. If they refuse and are fired, they should also be barred from any public service again.

It is outrageous that the clerk is even entertaining this idea. Good grief. She would be fired if she had said, "Some people are just very against performing weddings for Jews, and I have to respect their reasons and their decisions."

No, they made their decision, and that is that they no longer are public servants. They are servants that will serve the members of the public they wish, not all members of the public.

Let's hope the state government of Maryland steps in and tells these twits to either do their job or pack up their desks and leave. Immediately.

Phoenix Rev wrote:

Hooray!!! Bigoted public servants in a county in Maryland to get a pass for not doing their jobs!

When same-sex marriage becomes legal in Maryland next week, some employees in the St. Mary's County Circuit Court will stop performing marriages, passing the duty on to other employees.

"There are some [deputy clerks] that have voiced some opposition to doing it -- [they have] religious feelings about it ... so it's basically my idea that they won't do any marriage at all," said Joan Williams, clerk of the St. Mary's County Circuit Court. "Some people are just very against same-sex marriages, and I have to respect their reasons and their decisions."

These so-called "public servants" need to be told either to do their damn jobs or be fired. If they refuse and are fired, they should also be barred from any public service again.

It is outrageous that the clerk is even entertaining this idea. Good grief. She would be fired if she had said, "Some people are just very against performing weddings for Jews, and I have to respect their reasons and their decisions."

No, they made their decision, and that is that they no longer are public servants. They are servants that will serve the members of the public they wish, not all members of the public.

Let's hope the state government of Maryland steps in and tells these twits to either do their job or pack up their desks and leave. Immediately.

*brain ragequits* For realsies, Rev. Fired or made to do their job. Those are the options for the higher authorities above that court now. Ridiculous. Grrrrrr... gotta stop reading that, making me mad.

St. Mary's County is the home of the Patuxent River Naval Air Base and pretty much where all of experimental NAVAIR went after the latest BRAC (Base Realignment and Closure) was implemented. As a result, you have a ton of military folks from different parts of the country descending upon an already pretty conservative county.

It is not at all representative of the rest of Maryland.

Paleocon wrote:

St. Mary's County is the home of the Patuxent River Naval Air Base and pretty much where all of experimental NAVAIR went after the latest BRAC (Base Realignment and Closure) was implemented. As a result, you have a ton of military folks from different parts of the country descending upon an already pretty conservative county.

It is not at all representative of the rest of Maryland.

Clearly, given that the law passed, that doesn't give public servants the right to ignore their duties though. Yes, they have the right to free expression, religious beliefs, etc... except when their public servants on the job, in which case they need to be following their state's laws, and if they really have such problems with this, they need to be quitting, because this isn't going away.

Demosthenes wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

St. Mary's County is the home of the Patuxent River Naval Air Base and pretty much where all of experimental NAVAIR went after the latest BRAC (Base Realignment and Closure) was implemented. As a result, you have a ton of military folks from different parts of the country descending upon an already pretty conservative county.

It is not at all representative of the rest of Maryland.

Clearly, given that the law passed, that doesn't give public servants the right to ignore their duties though. Yes, they have the right to free expression, religious beliefs, etc... except when their public servants on the job, in which case they need to be following their state's laws, and if they really have such problems with this, they need to be quitting, because this isn't going away.

I don't disagree. I am just saying that Lexington Park is about as bass-ackward as one gets in Maryland without being from Garrett County where the only employer is the Federal Prison.

Two great news items to share...

First, the Chair of the Illinois Republican Party has thrown his full support behind the effort to legalize gay marriage in Illinois:

"More and more Americans understand that if two people want to make a lifelong commitment to each other, government should not stand in their way," Brady said. "Giving gay and lesbian couples the freedom to get married honors the best conservative principles. It strengthens families and reinforces a key Republican value - that the law should treat all citizens equally."

"Importantly, the pending legislation would protect the freedom of religion," Brady added. "No church or religious organization would ever be required to perform a union with which it disagrees."

The acceptance of marriage equality is progressing at a rapid pace, and more and more Republicans are realizing they can join the bandwagon or be left in the dust.

Second, this story out of Columbus, OH is just wonderful.

In essence, two gay men are in line for pizza at a food truck and it is cold. They decide to hold hands to keep warm and are talking about what fun they were having that night when the patron in front of them told them to stop their "gay sh*t" out. Little did that patron know that he would face a crowd hostile to his bigotry and the people running the food truck would refuse to serve him because of his anti-gay tirade.

Columbus is hardly a liberal bastion, but it is heartwarming to know that people are pushing back against anti-gay statements and sentiments.

Kudos to the crowd and the pizza truck.

Saw the Columbus story over on reddit. The neighborhood, the Short North, is THE gay neighborhood of Columbus, and while Ohio isn't all that liberal, Columbus is pretty damned friendly to gays. IIRC, it's one of the best cities for gays. Columbus Pride this year was impressively supported by local employers, and the number of churches that marched in the Pride parade was surprising. Not to mention the tiny size of the protesters' "crowd" that followed it.

And that pizza place has a huge truck they send to Columbus Pride, and the line was REALLY long. Good pizza, too.

NSMike wrote:

Saw the Columbus story over on reddit. The neighborhood, the Short North, is THE gay neighborhood of Columbus, and while Ohio isn't all that liberal, Columbus is pretty damned friendly to gays. IIRC, it's one of the best cities for gays. Columbus Pride this year was impressively supported by local employers, and the number of churches that marched in the Pride parade was surprising. Not to mention the tiny size of the protesters' "crowd" that followed it.

And that pizza place has a huge truck they send to Columbus Pride, and the line was REALLY long. Good pizza, too.

Cinci tends to be pretty good to, at least from what I've seen. Pretty decent Pride parade down here too, sponsored by the company I work for which made me feel pretty good about working here.