A personal announcement, emphatic thank-you, and cheers to Fedora.

SallyNasty wrote:
1Dgaf wrote:

Can someone tell me what's going on? Thread started, Mike and Fedora came out. Thread continued, Hypation said he was transgender. Now we have Clockwork, who I think is a man with a family, saying he's going to buy women's clothes. Is he a transvestite?

I don't care who people are, I'm just confused as to what's going on.

I usually find that the best way to be updated on a thread is to just read the thread, rather than to enter into one and ask semi-judgemental questions about the current status of said thread.

But that is just me.

IMAGE(http://frtim.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/madness.jpg)

Eh, it's all good. Confusing things are confusing.

I prefer the term "woman with a family."

Anyway, scariest part of transition aside from telling friends and family: voice work. It's surprisingly difficult and ridiculously intimidating. I have a fairly deep voice to begin with, so trying to raise it in pitch and make it sound natural has been a difficult process. I start feeling awkward and fidgety and self-conscious pretty much as soon as I start trying to speak like a woman, which in turn makes me overly aware of what I'm doing and throws everything off. I'll feel like I've really got a voice nailed down and then lose it the moment I try to use it with anyone.

But if you're curious about where I'm starting from—what the first picture in my magical girly transformation montage will look like—here's what I look like today. Kindly ignore the somewhat terrified, deer-in-the-headlights look I've got on my face. Pretty eyes, caterpillar eyebrows, soft lips, and an Adam's apple the size of a small truck. I've been growing my hair out and discovered that it's thinning a little on the top; it didn't bother me before, but now I'm terribly self-conscious about it.

Not a bad starting point, though.

*squee*

You're going to look awesome!

Alissa's a pretty name.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

I prefer the term "woman with a family."

Anyway, scariest part of transition aside from telling friends and family: voice work. It's surprisingly difficult and ridiculously intimidating. I have a fairly deep voice to begin with, so trying to raise it in pitch and make it sound natural has been a difficult process. I start feeling awkward and fidgety and self-conscious pretty much as soon as I start trying to speak like a woman, which in turn makes me overly aware of what I'm doing and throws everything off. I'll feel like I've really got a voice nailed down and then lose it the moment I try to use it with anyone.

But if you're curious about where I'm starting from—what the first picture in my magical girly transformation montage will look....(elided so as to not run the pic all down the page)

Not a bad starting point, though.

With the voice it just takes time. There's a bad old joke about "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?" and the answer is "Practice!" Last time you thought about this stuff you were wearing diapers. Thinking about it now feels weird. It takes a lot of work to re-train anything. In time you'll start to do it automatically. After still more time you'll have trouble ever stopping.

I've had to do the opposite. My speaking voice is in the low end of normal range for a girl, but my singing voice can go much lower. I had to figure out how to shade it to sound masculine for the many times over the years when I was helping pad out the tenor section. Now, if I sing along with a male it's hard for me not to match tone and color so I sound like a guy. I sang a duet with a guy at church not too long ago and it took us forever to work that out.

And as for the pic, you've got a lot to work with there.

I think there is some confusion here, yes. About pronouns and being judgemental.

If anyone wants to check, they can listen to the last show I recorded where I refer to the transgender listener that wrote in as 'she', always. Likewise the show a few months ago where I did the same thing talking about a transgender photographer in the fighting game community.

Now, can we agree that there is a difference between transgender and cross-dresser? (My mistake for using transvestite as a synonym for cross-dresser, apparently it's not the done thing anymore)

When I posted, I saw Clock's last post and wondered if she was a cross-dresser. Given that a cross-dresser is a man that dresses as a woman (or vice versa), but does not identify with the gender, I decided that the pronoun 'he' was the correct one.

Assuming she was a cross-dresser, it wouldn't have been appropriate to ask 'Is she a cross-dresser?' - because that's conflating cross-dressing and transgenderism when they are not the same thing.

If I had thought Clock was transgender, I would have used the pronoun she.

I realise there's lots of tenses and italics going on there, but it's a grammatically and etiquette-ally complex post.

I think the issue was with you referring to Hypatian as "he".

And in general, it's a weird, confusing mess with which pronouns to use for people when. See my post a couple pages back about whether or not to use female pronouns for myself. To be clear: I wasn't offended by anything you wrote and didn't think you were being judgmental.

Ah, that was a slip and I apologise for it. I'm perfect, but my typing it isn't.

Also, Clock, I'm glad to see you were smiling in your self portrait. Most people don't and it makes a big difference to how pleasant and approachable they look.

The terminology used with trans stuff is always a bit in flux, and a bit confusing. Transgender pretty much covers the whole gamut of gender variance, from presentation to identity. So someone who identifies as male but expresses as female could be considered transgender. At the same time, I'm sure there are drag queens who wouldn't label themselves that way. On the other side, transsexual is sometimes reserved for people who have been through transition, rather than people like Clock and myself who are just starting to stare at the headlights.

And you also have categories like genderfluid (sometimes identifies as male, sometimes as female, sometimes in between) or genderqueer (not necessarily any of the above.)

I think the real key things are simply to ask people how they identify themselves, and do it respectfully. It's easy to accidentally imply value judgements by saying the wrong things, but as long as we're all willing to talk, that's no big deal. We've got a good community. The person who might feel judged can generally assume it's all a misunderstanding and explain what freaked them out and feel sure that nobody's going to keep doing it intentionally. And the person who might have offended can generally know that people will explain what went wrong and that there'll be no hard feelings as long as they try to avoid that pitfall in the future.

And this is why I avoid personal pronouns like the Plague!

This thread has shown me why masculine/feminine romance language object pronouns don't ever make any sense.

That's why the smart linguist uses the term "noun class" instead of "gender".

momgamer wrote:

And this is why I avoid personal pronouns like the Plague! ;)

And cliches!

Gravey wrote:

Yeah, I sometimes wonder why men's fashion is basically so conservative, limited, and prescribed, whereas for women the world is their oyster. Take formal wear (please!): men get suits, and... suits. And let's face facts, they're all basically identical.

If you honestly believe that all suits are basically identical, you are incredibly mis-informed about men's fashion.
(Strolls away gallantly in seer-sucker shorts, moccasins and a blue oxford cloth).

boogle wrote:
Gravey wrote:

Yeah, I sometimes wonder why men's fashion is basically so conservative, limited, and prescribed, whereas for women the world is their oyster. Take formal wear (please!): men get suits, and... suits. And let's face facts, they're all basically identical.

If you honestly believe that all suits are basically identical, you are incredibly mis-informed about men's fashion.
(Strolls away gallantly in seer-sucker shorts, moccasins and a blue oxford cloth).

A wild Minarchist appears. You use Italian tailoring. It's super-effective!

boogle wrote:
Gravey wrote:

Yeah, I sometimes wonder why men's fashion is basically so conservative, limited, and prescribed, whereas for women the world is their oyster. Take formal wear (please!): men get suits, and... suits. And let's face facts, they're all basically identical.

If you honestly believe that all suits are basically identical, you are incredibly mis-informed about men's fashion.
(Strolls away gallantly in seer-sucker shorts, moccasins and a blue oxford cloth).

The travails of the "Boogle Dating Thread" have never made more sense before now.

boogle wrote:
Gravey wrote:

Yeah, I sometimes wonder why men's fashion is basically so conservative, limited, and prescribed, whereas for women the world is their oyster. Take formal wear (please!): men get suits, and... suits. And let's face facts, they're all basically identical.

If you honestly believe that all suits are basically identical, you are incredibly mis-informed about men's fashion.
(Strolls away gallantly in seer-sucker shorts, moccasins and a blue oxford cloth).

Not just incredibly mis-informed, but deliberately uninformed too.

boogle wrote:

www.putthison.com

At 32, I get to decide what this grown-up wears.

IMAGE(http://www.topatoco.com/graphics/00000001/wn-wizardpunch.gif)

I was about to post this—

So here's a stupid but totally honest question for you, Clock. I still spend a couple bucks on my Xbox avatar from time to time, make sure he's dressed appropriate for the season, and so forth. It's dumb, but I feel a little responsible to the little guy. I know you're not on Xbox anymore, but you play WP games so you're still connected to your Live profile and avatar. Would updating your avatar have any degree of importance, like for (re-)establishing who you are or want to be or anything, or am I too dumb for words for thinking about Xbox avatars in this context?

—But then I though I'd do my due diligence first, and quickly checked the Xbox iPhone app.

momgamer wrote:

I could use it. And I have 3 feet of hair here I need to think of something to do with besides a long braid down my back.

mine is nearly as long. I'd beg for all of you to let me join in.

Also:

Thank you.

I have something that needed to be said to the people around me. I was terrified to tell them but finally did last night. And all of your bravery came to mind when I did.

You really do inspire me.

MrAndrewJ wrote:

I have something that needed to be said to the people around me. I was terrified to tell them but finally did last night.

Congrats! Hope it went better than you expected!

Yay! More awesomeness!

MrAndrewJ wrote:

I have something that needed to be said to the people around me. I was terrified to tell them but finally did last night. And all of your bravery came to mind when I did.

You really do inspire me.

Congrats! As has already been said, I do hope it went well!

Rubb Ed wrote:
MrAndrewJ wrote:

I have something that needed to be said to the people around me. I was terrified to tell them but finally did last night. And all of your bravery came to mind when I did.

You really do inspire me.

Congrats! As has already been said, I do hope it went well!

+1

MrAndrewJ wrote:

Thank you.

I have something that needed to be said to the people around me. I was terrified to tell them but finally did last night. And all of your bravery came to mind when I did.

You really do inspire me.

I'll be nosy: what'd you tell them?

Gravey wrote:

I was about to post this—

So here's a stupid but totally honest question for you, Clock. I still spend a couple bucks on my Xbox avatar from time to time, make sure he's dressed appropriate for the season, and so forth. It's dumb, but I feel a little responsible to the little guy. I know you're not on Xbox anymore, but you play WP games so you're still connected to your Live profile and avatar. Would updating your avatar have any degree of importance, like for (re-)establishing who you are or want to be or anything, or am I too dumb for words for thinking about Xbox avatars in this context?

—But then I though I'd do my due diligence first, and quickly checked the Xbox iPhone app.

:D

I have a new Mii, too. If the rest of you are curious what Gravey's talking about, you can see my new avatar on my Xbox Live profile.

Funny story about that one: you can change your Mii's gender by just changing a toggle on the character page, but switching your Xbox avatar's gender requires deleting your old one and making a new one from scratch. I wish I'd been able to use the facial features and such that I'd picked out before, but I was okay with starting over until an hour or so into the process when I realized that I'd perfectly recreated my mother when she was my age. That was weird and disorienting, and I immediately had to change things. Turns out it was mostly the haircut.

Heh. My 360 avatar has been this for ages and ages. Although I haven't even turned on my 360 in a long time.