Homosexuality: Morals and Ethics Catch-All Thread

It may or may not, like I said I lived with two homosexual males in their 20's for a good while. They KNEW I didn't agree with their lifestyle, but they respected the way I approached my opinion. I didn't treat them any different and in return they didn't treat me any different. We actually became really good friends, some of the nicest people I've known. There does (in my opinion) come a point in your life when you need broad shoulders, just because someone dissagrees with what you do doesn't mean you need to get all defensive or take in personally. I do and have done a lot of things in my life that people have not agreed with and it's only made me a better person.

You're not understanding what I'm saying. The attitude is harmful. As was said above, it's not spoken in a vacuum. Whom you harm with this attitude may not be apparent. Once again, the simple test of replacing a sexual orientation with a race shows it for what it is. I am not capable of disagreeing with homosexuality or being convinced that I'm not homosexual. It doesn't work that way. It is an immutable state, not a decision, political position, or "lifestyle."

NormanTheIntern wrote:

I guess the thread has moved on into standard Christian-bashing territory

It really hasn't. The thread is discussing a position on homosexuality. It just so happens that the justification for that position is based in Christianity. In this discussion, the two are not separate entities, unless you claim that your reasoning is not based in Christianity.

Via Reddit:

Dear Hypothetically Gay Son,

You're gay. Obviously you already know that, because you told us at the dinner table last night. I apologize for the awkward silence afterwards, but I was chewing. It was like when we're at a restaurant and the waiter comes up mid-bite and asks how the meal is, only in this metaphor you are the waiter and instead of asking me about my meal you said you were gay. I don't know why I needed to explain that. I think I needed to find a funny way to repeat the fact that you're gay… because that is what it sounds like in my head right now. "My son is gay. My son is gay. My son is gay."

Let me be perfectly clear. I love you. I will always love you. Since being gay is part of who you are, I love that you're gay. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the idea. If you sensed any sadness in my silence last night, it was because I was surprised that I was surprised. Ideally, I would have already known. Since you were an embryo, my intent has always been to really know you for who you are and not who I expect you to be. And yet, I was taken by surprise at last night's dinner. Have I said "surprise" enough in this paragraph? One more time... surprise!

OK. Let's get a few things straight about how things are going to be.
Our home is a place of safety and love. The world has dealt you a difficult card. While LGBT people are becoming more accepted, it is still a difficult path to walk. You're going to experience hate and anger and misunderstandings about who you are out in the world. That will not happen here. You need to know with every fiber of who you are that when you walk in the front door of your home you are safe and you are loved. Your mother is in complete agreement with me on this.

I am still, as always, your biggest defender. Just because you're gay doesn't mean you're any less capable of taking care of/defending yourself. That said, if you need me to stand next to you, in front of you, write letters, sign petitions, advocate, or anything else, I am here. I will go to war for you.

If you're going to have boys over, you now need to leave your bedroom door open. Sorry kiddo. Thems are the breaks. I couldn't have girls in my room with the door shut, you don't get to have boys.

You and I are going to revisit that talk we had about safe sex. I know it's going to be awkward for both of us, but it is important. I need to do some research first, so let's give it a few weeks. If you have questions or concerns before then, let me know.
That's enough for now. Feel free to view this letter as a contract. If I ever fail to meet any of the commitments made herein, pull it out and hold me to account. I'll end with this: You are not broken. You are whole, and beautiful. You are capable and compassionate. You and your sister are the best things I have ever done with my life, and I couldn't be more proud of the people you've become.

Love,

Dad

P.S. Thanks to a few key Supreme Court decisions and the Marriage Equality act of 2020 you're legally able to get married. When I was your age, that was just an idea. Pretty cool huh?

Tanglebones wrote:

Via Reddit:

Dear Hypothetically Gay Son,

You're gay. Obviously you already know that, because you told us at the dinner table last night. I apologize for the awkward silence afterwards, but I was chewing. It was like when we're at a restaurant and the waiter comes up mid-bite and asks how the meal is, only in this metaphor you are the waiter and instead of asking me about my meal you said you were gay. I don't know why I needed to explain that. I think I needed to find a funny way to repeat the fact that you're gay… because that is what it sounds like in my head right now. "My son is gay. My son is gay. My son is gay."

Let me be perfectly clear. I love you. I will always love you. Since being gay is part of who you are, I love that you're gay. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the idea. If you sensed any sadness in my silence last night, it was because I was surprised that I was surprised. Ideally, I would have already known. Since you were an embryo, my intent has always been to really know you for who you are and not who I expect you to be. And yet, I was taken by surprise at last night's dinner. Have I said "surprise" enough in this paragraph? One more time... surprise!

OK. Let's get a few things straight about how things are going to be.
Our home is a place of safety and love. The world has dealt you a difficult card. While LGBT people are becoming more accepted, it is still a difficult path to walk. You're going to experience hate and anger and misunderstandings about who you are out in the world. That will not happen here. You need to know with every fiber of who you are that when you walk in the front door of your home you are safe and you are loved. Your mother is in complete agreement with me on this.

I am still, as always, your biggest defender. Just because you're gay doesn't mean you're any less capable of taking care of/defending yourself. That said, if you need me to stand next to you, in front of you, write letters, sign petitions, advocate, or anything else, I am here. I will go to war for you.

If you're going to have boys over, you now need to leave your bedroom door open. Sorry kiddo. Thems are the breaks. I couldn't have girls in my room with the door shut, you don't get to have boys.

You and I are going to revisit that talk we had about safe sex. I know it's going to be awkward for both of us, but it is important. I need to do some research first, so let's give it a few weeks. If you have questions or concerns before then, let me know.
That's enough for now. Feel free to view this letter as a contract. If I ever fail to meet any of the commitments made herein, pull it out and hold me to account. I'll end with this: You are not broken. You are whole, and beautiful. You are capable and compassionate. You and your sister are the best things I have ever done with my life, and I couldn't be more proud of the people you've become.

Love,

Dad

P.S. Thanks to a few key Supreme Court decisions and the Marriage Equality act of 2020 you're legally able to get married. When I was your age, that was just an idea. Pretty cool huh?

Very good post. If, by 2020 my son comes to me and says this I will do what I can to have the same reaction as this father.

PAR

The Conformist wrote:

But don't you see how you're view can be considered just as much as a bigot? There is reason to me to disagree with homosexuality, It may not be a reason you understand or even like, but it's a reason, and my right as a human being to have that reason. I don't hate homosexuals, I think I am a good person who wants to be treated how I treat others, with respect. I've learned quite a bit over the past few years of my life and I would never belittle another human being because of there beliefs, there race, or their lifestyles.

Imagine an anti-semite saying the exact same things about a cultural Jew and you might see why the claim that it's equally bigoted to criticize the anti-semite is not exactly equivalent.

Many anti-semites claim to have good reasons to disagree with Jews (ethnically even, not just religious ones) as well. Many even claim not to hate them.

Alternately, what you are saying could just as easily have come from the mouth of a racist claiming that whites and blacks shouldn't mix. They would cite their own reasons why they'd disagree that mixed race marriages are acceptable, and many would even claim that they don't hate or treat black people differently.

Note I am NOT calling you an anti-semite or a racist. I'm simply saying that the "reasons" you have for disagreeing with homosexuality are not that different in justification as those that anti-semites or racists use to disagree with ethnic or racial mixing.

NSMike wrote:

You're not understanding what I'm saying. The attitude is harmful. As was said above, it's not spoken in a vacuum. Whom you harm with this attitude may not be apparent. Once again, the simple test of replacing a sexual orientation with a race shows it for what it is. I am not capable of disagreeing with homosexuality or being convinced that I'm not homosexual. It doesn't work that way. It is an immutable state, not a decision, political position, or "lifestyle."

Perhaps I am mistaken on your meaning. But please allow me to clarify where I am coming from and emphasize that this is something you will probably never understand or get, but it is how I feel and I will not change who I am at my core because the world tells me to. I do not have an attitude towards anyone for being who they are, and yet I look at race and sexual orientation as two completely different things. If my view of homosexuality has offended someone, anyone out there I am deeply sorry, because I truly from the depths of my soul do not mean to. But just like the homosexual community, this is something about me that I cannot change, it is ingrained in my soul, it is my way of life. There comes a point in everyone's life where you have to take a stand on what you truly believe is right, you can't let the world push you to think one way just because they say it's wrong. I do not agree with homosexuality, but I will love and treat anyone who is one with the respect that any other decent human being deserves.

Is your confusion based in a belief that homosexuality is purely a choice and not biological?

The Conformist wrote:

There comes a point in everyone's life where you have to take a stand on what you truly believe is right, you can't let the world push you to think one way just because they say it's wrong. I do not agree with homosexuality, but I will love and treat anyone who is one with the respect that any other decent human being deserves.

Perhaps instead of taking a stand, a more nuanced approach would be investigating and evaluating whether that belief is based in something that is supportable. To say homosexuality is wrong but race is something different might just be mistaken. Is there a reason why one should separate the two?

As Jayhawker said, is this rooted in the assumption that homosexuality is somehow a choice?

The Conformist wrote:

Perhaps I am mistaken on your meaning. But please allow me to clarify where I am coming from and emphasize that this is something you will probably never understand or get, but it is how I feel and I will not change who I am at my core because the world tells me to. I do not have an attitude towards anyone for being who they are, and yet I look at race and sexual orientation as two completely different things. If my view of homosexuality has offended someone, anyone out there I am deeply sorry, because I truly from the depths of my soul do not mean to. But just like the homosexual community, this is something about me that I cannot change, it is ingrained in my soul, it is my way of life. There comes a point in everyone's life where you have to take a stand on what you truly believe is right, you can't let the world push you to think one way just because they say it's wrong. I do not agree with homosexuality, but I will love and treat anyone who is one with the respect that any other decent human being deserves.

Forgive me while I laugh bitterly.

Ok, I'm done.

No it isn't. Seriously it isn't. It's a conviction. Convictions come about when you've been convinced of something. It's not precisely a choice, but you can only change your convictions if you're open to ideas that pose new questions or considerations. Your "inability" to change lies solely at the feet of your unwillingness to consider the position from someone else's perspective.

You're only an Intern on the boards, so you can easily be forgiven for not knowing my past, but allow me to relate my story, and exactly how much I understand where you're coming from, and precisely why it is wrong. I turned 30 years old this year. I was raised Catholic. For the first 26/27 years of my life, I held to those beliefs, including a huge, unhealthy dose of internalized homophobia, both cultivated and maintained by a culture that was toxic to my very person. I was antisocial. I was isolated. I was not happy. I got grossly overweight. I lived in anxiety and fear. And then, when I was roughly 27 years old, give or take a few months, I broke out of my religious conditioning. I became convinced, by a number of factors (including science, philosophy, rational reasoning, history, etc), that all religions and gods are a construct of humanity. I became an atheist. There was no catalyst, no thing for me to be angry with. It was a tremendously difficult transition, but I am better for it. It took a good two years before I would come to terms with my homosexuality. I had that much internalized homophobia. Even though I no longer considered the Catholic faith, Christianity, or any other religion or sect to be worthy of a heartbeat of my attention, this discomfort clung to me. It was only after I started coming out that things changed. Even people who were shocked by the news (my parents) have noted exactly just how much happier I have been since this event. It was 29 when I started coming out. I'm now three months into 30, have moved, am in my first real relationship, and am living the kind of life that I feel like I deserved years ago. But because good-natured people told me it was wrong, I suffered in silence.

The immutable thing, the thing that could not give, was not the convictions of a misguided, delusional group of people.

I am not saying you need to abandon your faith to accept homosexuals. You simply need to be convinced that your belief that homosexuals are in some way wrong is wrong itself, and harmful to others.

[quote=NSMike]

The Conformist wrote:

I am not saying you need to abandon your faith to accept homosexuals. You simply need to be convinced that your belief that homosexuals are in some way wrong is wrong itself, and harmful to others.

I'm sorry, but you sound very similar to those people you speak out against. It is ingrained in me, it is the way I am. While I do enjoy discussing this subject with you, it just seems that we are incapable of seeing eye to eye on this situation, so agree to disagree Remember, I may be an Intern on this site, but I have lived as long as you in this world, and suffered my own problems and persecutions, I am not a strangers to pain and suffering.

The Conformist wrote:

I'm sorry, but you sound very similar to those people you speak out against. It is ingrained in me, it is the way I am.

How can the belief that something is wrong that does no harm to anyone be "ingrained" in you? What justification is there for homosexuality being "wrong"?

And there is a pretty big difference between your two positions, by the way. The people he is speaking out against are saying that what he IS is "Wrong".

The Conformist wrote:
NSMike wrote:
The Conformist wrote:

I am not saying you need to abandon your faith to accept homosexuals. You simply need to be convinced that your belief that homosexuals are in some way wrong is wrong itself, and harmful to others.

I'm sorry, but you sound very similar to those people you speak out against. It is ingrained in me, it is the way I am. While I do enjoy discussing this subject with you, it just seems that we are incapable of seeing eye to eye on this situation, so agree to disagree Remember, I may be an Intern on this site, but I have lived as long as you in this world, and suffered my own problems and persecutions, I am not a strangers to pain and suffering.

Someone just posted their extremely personal life story of how your attitude caused them huge amounts of pain and unhappiness in life, and your response is effectively "too bad, so sad"? This is not "agree to disagree". If that's the attitude, you get to walk away feeling morally superior, and gays and lesbians whose lives are crushed by your casual bigotry get to continue to suffer. This is not equitable in any way. You have just been told point-blank the kind of pain your views cause other human beings, and you simply blew it off.

It's moments like this that make me depressed to be a human being.

Conformist, you say that these views are ingrained in you and you can't change them. Would you want to if you could?

MilkmanDanimal wrote:
The Conformist wrote:
NSMike wrote:
The Conformist wrote:

I am not saying you need to abandon your faith to accept homosexuals. You simply need to be convinced that your belief that homosexuals are in some way wrong is wrong itself, and harmful to others.

I'm sorry, but you sound very similar to those people you speak out against. It is ingrained in me, it is the way I am. While I do enjoy discussing this subject with you, it just seems that we are incapable of seeing eye to eye on this situation, so agree to disagree Remember, I may be an Intern on this site, but I have lived as long as you in this world, and suffered my own problems and persecutions, I am not a strangers to pain and suffering.

Someone just posted their extremely personal life story of how your attitude caused them huge amounts of pain and unhappiness in life, and your response is effectively "too bad, so sad"? This is not "agree to disagree". If that's the attitude, you get to walk away feeling morally superior, and gays and lesbians whose lives are crushed by your casual bigotry get to continue to suffer. This is not equitable in any way. You have just been told point-blank the kind of pain your views cause other human beings, and you simply blew it off.

It's moments like this that make me depressed to be a human being.

If your belief systems in ingrained in you and can't change then that means you aren't basing your beliefs on thought. That's scary.

MilkmanDanimal wrote:

It's moments like this that make me depressed to be a human being.

Of all the communities I've been in, this one has by far had the most friendly, tolerant and upstanding people in it. Even so, I feel your pain.

The Conformist wrote:
NSMike wrote:
The Conformist wrote:

I am not saying you need to abandon your faith to accept homosexuals. You simply need to be convinced that your belief that homosexuals are in some way wrong is wrong itself, and harmful to others.

I'm sorry, but you sound very similar to those people you speak out against. It is ingrained in me, it is the way I am. While I do enjoy discussing this subject with you, it just seems that we are incapable of seeing eye to eye on this situation, so agree to disagree Remember, I may be an Intern on this site, but I have lived as long as you in this world, and suffered my own problems and persecutions, I am not a strangers to pain and suffering.

May I ask why it's so deeply ingrained into you? What is your background?

The reason I ask is because I do actually find this interesting, given that you lived with two gay men. Usually being exposed to the day-to-day lives of people whom you have strong negative feelings towards lessens those feelings, rather than strengthening them.

Gentlemen, and possible ladies of course This is where I check out. I realize that it is exceedingly difficult for many of you to understand my views and my life, but I believe I have handled myself in an appropriate fashion and do not deserve to be "Bitterly laughed at" or called a "Casual Bigot". For those with that stance, simply look at the arguement that you are defending, you stand up for people who throw harsh words around to homosexuals simply for not understanding them, and yet you are guilty of the very thing you try and fight against. There are reasons I do not wish to discuss my views on such subjects, because every time I do I'm crushed beneath a wall of condesending text. How can you preach understanding when you yourselfs are not such?

I do not simply shrug off NS Mikes struggles, I feel for him, the fact that he's had to go through such pains. But the fact remains we just don't see eye to eye, struggles or no struggles, we all have struggles, but it's certainly nothing to make light of. I believe pain can strengthen a person, which is why I didn't comment on his post, and which is why I simply did not retort by telling him the issues in my life. But anywho, It's been quite fun talking to those of you who are more tolerant towards others. And those who aren't, no hard feelings Been a pleasure.

The idea that an attitude towards a people and a way of viewing the world are things that are set and unchanging is, quite literally, one of the most terrifying things I've read in a long time. It's not even a view of the human brain as a computer, it's a view of the human brain as a toy train.

The Conformist wrote:

For those with that stance, simply look at the arguement that you are defending, you stand up for people who throw harsh words around to homosexuals simply for not understanding them, and yet you are guilty of the very thing you try and fight against.

No, this is NOT equivalent. Your situation is a matter of belief. His is a matter of what he is. You BELIEVE that homosexuality is wrong and are being criticized for that belied, that is not the same as BEING a homosexual and being told that what you ARE is wrong.

Valmorian wrote:
The Conformist wrote:

For those with that stance, simply look at the arguement that you are defending, you stand up for people who throw harsh words around to homosexuals simply for not understanding them, and yet you are guilty of the very thing you try and fight against.

No, this is NOT equivalent. Your situation is a matter of belief. His is a matter of what he is. You BELIEVE that homosexuality is wrong and are being criticized for that belied, that is not the same as BEING a homosexual and being told that what you ARE is wrong.

Or being denied the same rights and privileges as your fellow citizens.

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/HaDK4.jpg)

I see it quite simply; if you don't like being called a bigot, don't be a bigot.

That, or, again, please explain to me how you justify your opposition to same-sex marriage in any way different than those who had (or have) opposition to interracial marriage. I see utterly no difference between the two.

MilkmanDanimal wrote:

I see it quite simply; if you don't like being called a bigot, don't be a bigot.

That, or, again, please explain to me how you justify your opposition to same-sex marriage in any way different than those who had (or have) opposition to interracial marriage. I see utterly no difference between the two.

I rarely use the word bigot for anything because I find it unproductive. But his stance is bigoted to the core. He won't even discuss why he believes what he believes. It is not only bigoted but ignorant and immoral.

I just don't get why people feel like they have the RIGHT to an opinion about other people's sex lives. I think that is wonderful that there is so much sharing on this board - but at the end of the day, I hope that Mike, Rubb, and Rev have as little opinion on my sex life as I do on theirs.

We are just a nation of crazy busy-bodies!

I don't have the right to an opinion about anybody besides my wife's sex life, and only because that sex life directly affects me (or doesn't, depending on her moods:)). If my kids are gay - that isn't my business, because I don't want to have sex with them. Only opinion I have is that I hope they are safe and fullfilled.

I just find it remarkable that the same people who so vocally support personal liberties are so often the same people who so readily deny them to others.

As much as I agree that things may have gotten a little too personal, the refrain of "make false equivocation, claim injury when false equivocation is not agreed upon, exit posing as the wounded party and/or the only reasonable person in the argument" seems a pretty common one in this topic. It's frustrating.

goman wrote:
MilkmanDanimal wrote:

I see it quite simply; if you don't like being called a bigot, don't be a bigot.

That, or, again, please explain to me how you justify your opposition to same-sex marriage in any way different than those who had (or have) opposition to interracial marriage. I see utterly no difference between the two.

I rarely use the word bigot for anything because I find it unproductive. But his stance is bigoted to the core. He won't even discuss why he believes what he believes. It is not only bigoted but ignorant and immoral.

I don't discuss why I believe what I believe because of well, look at everything. I'm being called a bigot before you even know why I stand for what I stand for. What incentive does that give me? Mocking someone for something you just simply don't get isn't exactly the way people should handle things.

The Conformist wrote:
goman wrote:
MilkmanDanimal wrote:

I see it quite simply; if you don't like being called a bigot, don't be a bigot.

That, or, again, please explain to me how you justify your opposition to same-sex marriage in any way different than those who had (or have) opposition to interracial marriage. I see utterly no difference between the two.

I rarely use the word bigot for anything because I find it unproductive. But his stance is bigoted to the core. He won't even discuss why he believes what he believes. It is not only bigoted but ignorant and immoral.

I don't discuss why I believe what I believe because of well, look at everything. I'm being called a bigot before you even know why I stand for what I stand for. What incentive does that give me? Mocking someone for something you just simply don't get isn't exactly the way people should handle things.

You're being called a bigot because of WHAT you believe, not WHY. Why you believe being homosexual is wrong doesn't change the fact that you do, which is what makes that view bigoted.

You're also refusing to say why, you keep saying you won't say why. If you have a good reason to think that, why wouldn't you be quick to share it?

The Conformist wrote:
goman wrote:
MilkmanDanimal wrote:

I see it quite simply; if you don't like being called a bigot, don't be a bigot.

That, or, again, please explain to me how you justify your opposition to same-sex marriage in any way different than those who had (or have) opposition to interracial marriage. I see utterly no difference between the two.

I rarely use the word bigot for anything because I find it unproductive. But his stance is bigoted to the core. He won't even discuss why he believes what he believes. It is not only bigoted but ignorant and immoral.

I don't discuss why I believe what I believe because of well, look at everything. I'm being called a bigot before you even know why I stand for what I stand for. What incentive does that give me? Mocking someone for something you just simply don't get isn't exactly the way people should handle things.

You refuse to even discuss it. You say that you are "loving, respectful, and understanding" yet you shrug NSMike's experience as oh well whatever. That is not a loving or understanding posture.

Do you not have the time to put your feeling into words or do you not want to feel ridiculed? Why won't you explain yourself?

MilkmanDanimal wrote:

I don't see it as teaching, I see it as shaming. One of the reasons the kinds of casual racism our grandparents' generation tossed about is no longer spoken outwardly is because there are massive social sanctions against being outwardly bigoted against race. It's just no longer acceptable to tell racist jokes or denigrate people based on their skin color; if somebody did that in my presence, people would be horrified and I firmly believe that's one of the reasons we now live in a more tolerant society. Openly expressing intolerance of that sort is simply not allowed by polite society.

So the litmus test of your "more tolerant society" is that people should be slut-shamed into not expressing religious beliefs that you personally don't agree with? Sounds like a brave new world to me, best of luck.

NormanTheIntern wrote:
MilkmanDanimal wrote:

I don't see it as teaching, I see it as shaming. One of the reasons the kinds of casual racism our grandparents' generation tossed about is no longer spoken outwardly is because there are massive social sanctions against being outwardly bigoted against race. It's just no longer acceptable to tell racist jokes or denigrate people based on their skin color; if somebody did that in my presence, people would be horrified and I firmly believe that's one of the reasons we now live in a more tolerant society. Openly expressing intolerance of that sort is simply not allowed by polite society.

So the litmus test of your "more tolerant society" is that people should be slut-shamed into not confronted for expressing religious beliefs that you personally don't agree with bigotry? Sounds like a brave new world to me, best of luck.

FTFY. Keep the straw man out of here.

NormanTheIntern wrote:
MilkmanDanimal wrote:

I don't see it as teaching, I see it as shaming. One of the reasons the kinds of casual racism our grandparents' generation tossed about is no longer spoken outwardly is because there are massive social sanctions against being outwardly bigoted against race. It's just no longer acceptable to tell racist jokes or denigrate people based on their skin color; if somebody did that in my presence, people would be horrified and I firmly believe that's one of the reasons we now live in a more tolerant society. Openly expressing intolerance of that sort is simply not allowed by polite society.

So the litmus test of your "more tolerant society" is that people should be slut-shamed into not expressing religious beliefs that you personally don't agree with? Sounds like a brave new world to me, best of luck.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.