Who thought Reddit couldn't get Worse

Porn contributing to rape culture by easy access to sexual deviant fantasy.

SallyNasty wrote:

Porn contributing to rape culture by easy access to sexual deviant fantasy.

Sexual deviance has nothing to do with rape culture. Rape culture is not about sexual deviants, rape culture is about the clean cut, All-American guy who thinks he deserves to have sex with the head cheerleader whether she wants to or not, who has boring old missionary sex with her while she's drunk or because he's got sexted pictures of her boobs he's threatening to show the rest of the team or because he kept pestering her even though she was tired and eventually she just gives in.

Rape culture is about any time men think they're entitled to take sex from a woman without her consent. Thinking it has anything to do with sexual deviancy or fantasy is ridiculous.

CheezePavilion wrote:
SallyNasty wrote:

Porn contributing to rape culture by easy access to sexual deviant fantasy.

Sexual deviance has nothing to do with rape culture. Rape culture is not about sexual deviants, rape culture is about the clean cut, All-American guy who thinks he deserves to have sex with the head cheerleader whether she wants to or not, who has boring old missionary sex with her while she's drunk or because he's got sexted pictures of her boobs he's threatening to show the rest of the team or because he kept pestering her even though she was tired and eventually she just gives in.

Rape culture is about any time men think they're entitled to take sex from a woman without her consent. Thinking it has anything to do with sexual deviancy or fantasy is ridiculous.

I get what you are saying, but I am positing that pornographic images contributes to the 'no means yes' attitude prevalent in rape culture. They are connected.

SallyNasty wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:
SallyNasty wrote:

Porn contributing to rape culture by easy access to sexual deviant fantasy.

Sexual deviance has nothing to do with rape culture. Rape culture is not about sexual deviants, rape culture is about the clean cut, All-American guy who thinks he deserves to have sex with the head cheerleader whether she wants to or not, who has boring old missionary sex with her while she's drunk or because he's got sexted pictures of her boobs he's threatening to show the rest of the team or because he kept pestering her even though she was tired and eventually she just gives in.

Rape culture is about any time men think they're entitled to take sex from a woman without her consent. Thinking it has anything to do with sexual deviancy or fantasy is ridiculous.

I get what you are saying, but I am positing that pornographic images contributes to the 'no means yes' attitude prevalent in rape culture. They are connected.

Okay, but how are they connected.

4xis.black wrote:

Where this all gets super weird is when you consider the purpose of that video as a masturbatory aid and try to figure out how stealing your sex partner's purse contributes to that purpose.

The purse is a symbol for the vagina?

IMO, no consensual sex act is inherently misogynist or a propagator of rape culture. With porn, the thing to look at is how they contextualize the act. When, for example, the title of the video is "[insert skin colour here] b*tch getting what she deserves", that's a red flag. Another example: Some porn films present fictional stories in which a random woman on the street is a) Offered money for sex, b) Accepts readily, and then c) Has her purse stolen by the protagonists. Stories like these link acts of hatred and contempt against women pretty much directly to sexual gratification. The implication is not just that the female character is primarily a sex object, but also that she is undeserving of the basic rights afforded her by our society (such as, in this case, the right to property) and for some reason that is totally hot.

Where this all gets super weird is when you try to figure out why it's posited as being totally hot, and that I believe is a rape culture thing.

CheezePavilion wrote:

The purse is a symbol for the vagina?

Actually, yeah, I think that is the reason.

Is there any evidence that the amount of rape and sexual assault have been getting worse since the introduction of video & internet porn, that it's the worst it's ever gotten?

Seems to me you have to gloss over a lot history to come to that conclusion.

Porn is not the only variable; the equation is, in fact, massively complex. For this reason, statistics like "national rapes per year" are practically useless in determining social policy, or, for that matter, learning anything of value about the problem.

Quintin_Stone wrote:

Is there any evidence that the amount of rape and sexual assault have been getting worse since the introduction of video & internet porn, that it's the worst it's ever gotten?

Seems to me you have to gloss over a lot history to come to that conclusion.

I imagine this is another example of the Mayberry effect at work.

Edit- that's not to say that I don't think that misogynistic porn isn't a problem, just that porn in general isn't.

4xis.black wrote:

Porn is not the only variable; the equation is, in fact, massively complex. For this reason, statistics like "national rapes per year" are practically useless in determining social policy, or, for that matter, learning anything of value about the problem.

Which makes it just a gut feeling, like that video games and violent movies contribute to rates of violent crime. Gut feelings are even more useless in determining social policy.

Granted, the guys riding around in the car tossing money at girls is pretty awful, but not all porn viewers like all the same stuff. Porn is very diverse in content and style. Pointing to the misogynist stuff as representative of the whole porn genre is like suggesting TV is awful because there's a sitcom on CBS that uses the same tired jokes year after year.

Whether or not porn has a detrimental effect on society, it's clearly not the sole contributor to rape culture. Humans have been raping one another since before we even had language, so banning or fixing pornography probably isn't going have a significant effect on rape occurrences. The big problem is our culture of slut-shaming and victim blaming that discourages people from reporting rape when it occurs. Porn might contribute to this, but so do mainstream media and certain religions. It's a systemic problem that needs to be addressed everywhere, not just in one specific corner of our society.

I am with muttonchop. The grander problem is the North American attitudes towards sex.

Pornography is not a sufficient reason for America's incredibly high rape rate. Right along with our high rate goes along with a high incidence where rape goes unreported. As far as the National Institute of Justice can determine only a third of rapes or attempted rapes are ever reported.

Top five reasons for not reporting:
Self-blame or guilt.
Shame, embarrassment, or desire to keep the assault a private matter.
Humiliation or fear of the perpetrator or other individual's perceptions.
Fear of not being believed or of being accused of playing a role in the crime.
Lack of trust in the criminal justice system.

There have been some isolated studies showing a higher rate of rapes in the more morally conservative or Bible Belt states.

KingGorilla wrote:

I am with muttonchop. The grander problem is the North American attitudes towards sex.

Pornography is not a sufficient reason for America's incredibly high rape rate. Right along with our high rate goes along with a high incidence where rape goes unreported. As far as the National Institute of Justice can determine only a third of rapes or attempted rapes are ever reported.

Top five reasons for not reporting:
Self-blame or guilt.
Shame, embarrassment, or desire to keep the assault a private matter.
Humiliation or fear of the perpetrator or other individual's perceptions.
Fear of not being believed or of being accused of playing a role in the crime.
Lack of trust in the criminal justice system.

There have been some isolated studies showing a higher rate of rapes in the more morally conservative or Bible Belt states.

I would agree with all of this. And even in some cases where the rape is reported, it is shrugged off and never officially "reported", and nothing comes of it.

No offense, SallyNasty, you know I respect you and like you. But I'm going to go ahead and laugh openly and slightly bitterly at the idea that porn increases the prevalence of rape. It's apples to the inside of stars, just because they both contain hydrogen.

There's some stupid, hate-filled stuff. There's also more reasonable and human stuff. Like, well, the entire rest of the human experience. If anything, it's the attitude that "all sex is bad unless you're married and it's entirely for procreation." It's the pervasive and horrible slut shaming. Yes, I'm ranting, and no, I don't mean anything personal. Linking anyone who views porn ever (So, a _MASSIVE_ percentage of people), to some of the most violent, despicable, and horrific people is... insulting isn't even the right word. It's not on the same planet, or solar system. I'm not sure it's even in the same universe.

No offense, because I know you didn't intend it this way, but it's that kind of attitude that makes it such a problem in the US. You make porn and sex some dirty thing, and then any woman who dares be aware of her sexuality is "asking for it". Anyone who dares realize that, maybe sex doesn't just have to be between a married man and woman with the lights off can be painted as some sort of deviant. It's, pardon the pun, f*cked.

I am not saying porn causes rape, I am saying that it contributes to the idea of woman as sex object, and leads to objectification.

SallyNasty wrote:

I am not saying porn causes rape, I am saying that it contributes to the idea of woman as sex object, and leads to objectification.

Yeah, no. Some does, sure. So does a lot of media, and a fair few human behaviors. We're working on that one. Brush is way too broad for my tastes.

SallyNasty wrote:

I am not saying porn causes rape, I am saying that it contributes to the idea of woman as sex object, and leads to objectification.

Well, your last comment was: "I am positing that pornographic images contributes to the 'no means yes' attitude prevalent in rape culture." I don't know how to interpret that other than 'porn causes rape'.

None of the porn I watch does a lick of harm to women.

LarryC wrote:

At its most basic, you can just point blank tell the woman - "I want to have sex with you; but I will do it on your terms. Once we get naked, it's on; so don't get naked with me until you're good and ready."

It worked for Richard Feynman.

NSMike wrote:

None of the porn I watch does a lick of harm to women.

This deserves a /golfclap. Well played, sir.

LarryC wrote:

At its most basic, you can just point blank tell the woman - "I want to have sex with you; but I will do it on your terms. Once we get naked, it's on; so don't get naked with me until you're good and ready."

First I imagined this being said by Clint Eastwood.

Then I thought of Gilbert Gottfried.

I'll be in my bunk.

[size=6]Weeping silently to myself[/size]

NSMike wrote:

None of the porn I watch does a lick of harm to women.

IMAGE(http://gifs.gifbin.com/1233928590_citizen%20kane%20clapping.gif)

On the front page, an opinion about why Reddit is a bad venue to showcase rapists.

Not exactly the same reason I feel like it should have been filtered, but it's an interesting perspective for sure.

Edit: Actually, I usually defend the hivemind, but some of the comments here are worse than in the original thread. It's turned into a discussion about--surprise, surprise--free speech. Can't wait until someone mentions Ron Paul and/or Neil deGrasse Tyson.

Reddit is generally one of those places like /b/ or anywhere Anon gathers. I don't want them shut down, because I believe censorship in all forms is evil, but hot damn do they make it hard to hold that opinion.

Kannon wrote:

Reddit is generally one of those places like /b/ or anywhere Anon gathers. I don't want them shut down, because I believe censorship in all forms is evil, but hot damn do they make it hard to hold that opinion.

And that is why I think it is most worth defending. I may certainly not like most of what people post/talk about but I wholeheartedly defend their right to do it.

Quintin_Stone wrote:

Which makes it just a gut feeling, like that video games and violent movies contribute to rates of violent crime. Gut feelings are even more useless in determining social policy.

I wouldn't describe it as a 'gut feeling' exactly; it's a criticism of pornography (and, of course, only SOME pornography) within the framework of feminism and rape culture. However, I agree about the fact that such things aren't any better than statistics at determining good social policy.

I should probably clarify my position somewhat. I am not in favour of censoring or banning any form of porn, so long as the actors give legal consent (entailing, of course, that they are of legal age) and are not endangered during the production process. Nor do I claim that porn is the leading contributor (or even a particularly high-ranking one) towards incidence of rape in the population or to what we call 'rape culture'. What I claim is two things:

1) Sexist forms of porn (such as the ones I described earlier) are a component (if not a very large one, proportionally) in the system of oppression that devalues women and depicts transgressions against their rights (including, but not limited to, the right to their person) as being normal behaviour, and
2) That much of this sort of porn is in fact fairly mainstream and is not relegated strictly to the darkest corners of the internet.

In a lot of ways, the core of the 'rape culture' concept is the assertion that there is no one or two or three properties in society that contribute directly to sexual assault, but instead a huge variety of them ingrained at all levels of society that serve both to normalize it and obscure the ways that they're normalizing it. This is generally how systems of oppression work; the goal is to prevent people from finding out they're oppressed. Furthermore, this can happen procedurally rather than by some sinister conspiracy hatched by the men of ancient times. People have a natural tendency to hang on to social advantage rather than sacrifice it, and they prefer to rationalize this behaviour so that it becomes invisible to them. Other examples include racial oppression and class oppression.

I think that the pornography I've described is a notable artifact as far as rape culture is concerned in that it is so very bald-faced about the whole 'women as a sexual commodity' thing and yet doesn't seem to register as being any more questionable than something like Duke Nukem Forever (which I think it pretty clearly is).

plavonica wrote:
Kannon wrote:

Reddit is generally one of those places like /b/ or anywhere Anon gathers. I don't want them shut down, because I believe censorship in all forms is evil, but hot damn do they make it hard to hold that opinion.

And that is why I think it is most worth defending. I may certainly not like most of what people post/talk about but I wholeheartedly defend their right to do it.

Pretty much. Problem with defending free speech is most of the time you're defending assholes.

4xis.black wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:

Which makes it just a gut feeling, like that video games and violent movies contribute to rates of violent crime. Gut feelings are even more useless in determining social policy.

I wouldn't describe it as a 'gut feeling' exactly; it's a criticism of pornography (and, of course, only SOME pornography) within the framework of feminism and rape culture. However, I agree about the fact that such things aren't any better than statistics at determining good social policy.

I should probably clarify my position somewhat. I am not in favour of censoring or banning any form of porn, so long as the actors give legal consent (entailing, of course, that they are of legal age) and are not endangered during the production process. Nor do I claim that porn is the leading contributor (or even a particularly high-ranking one) towards incidence of rape in the population or to what we call 'rape culture'. What I claim is two things:

1) Sexist forms of porn (such as the ones I described earlier) are a component (if not a very large one, proportionally) in the system of oppression that devalues women and depicts transgressions against their rights (including, but not limited to, the right to their person) as being normal behaviour, and
2) That much of this sort of porn is in fact fairly mainstream and is not relegated strictly to the darkest corners of the internet.

In a lot of ways, the core of the 'rape culture' concept is the assertion that there is no one or two or three properties in society that contribute directly to sexual assault, but instead a huge variety of them ingrained at all levels of society that serve both to normalize it and obscure the ways that they're normalizing it. This is generally how systems of oppression work; the goal is to prevent people from finding out they're oppressed. Furthermore, this can happen procedurally rather than by some sinister conspiracy hatched by the men of ancient times. People have a natural tendency to hang on to social advantage rather than sacrifice it, and they prefer to rationalize this behaviour so that it becomes invisible to them. Other examples include racial oppression and class oppression.

I think that the pornography I've described is a notable artifact as far as rape culture is concerned in that it is so very bald-faced about the whole 'women as a sexual commodity' thing and yet doesn't seem to register as being any more questionable than something like Duke Nukem Forever (which I think it pretty clearly is).

This is a much better typed version of what I was trying to get at.

4xis.black wrote:

1) Sexist forms of porn (such as the ones I described earlier) are a component (if not a very large one, proportionally) in the system of oppression that devalues women and depicts transgressions against their rights (including, but not limited to, the right to their person) as being normal behaviour, and
2) That much of this sort of porn is in fact fairly mainstream and is not relegated strictly to the darkest corners of the internet.

I don't think what you're talking about depicts transgressions against their rights as "normal behavior." You talked earlier about contextualizing the act, and the context isn't just within the work itself. The context goes beyond the work, and the context is pornography. To use the example you described earlier, if anyone thinks "[insert skin colour here] b*tch getting what she deserves" is meant to be taken seriously, they had problems loooooong before they saw that porno.