Who thought Reddit couldn't get Worse

House, this arson was your fault!
Shouldn't have been standing there at that time of night with those Doric columns and that low slung porch.

boogle wrote:

House, this arson was your fault!
Shouldn't have been standing there at that time of night with those Doric columns and that low slung porch.

I was hoping to avoid that particularly vile piece of rhetoric, as that's not at all what I'm saying. In some ways, that sort of saying does a lot of damage just because of the amount of conversation that's devoted to hashing it out; quite apart from its awful message.

If you get murdered because you went into a depressed area and verbally assaulted a gang member you know is predisposed to violence, it's really still not your fault. That's no justification for that sort of thing. That said, it's still a very stupid, risky thing to be doing; and it's good for us to know if that sort of a thing is the sort of thing that happens around the neighborhood.

The line between acknowledging the risk or certain actions, and using the foreknowledge of that risk to assign blame is a fine out.
The fact that we acknowledge the risks of sexual assault that people undertake in otherwise normal activities (a first date to watch a movie at someones house) is a failing on us as a society for allowing people who violate another person to exist within society.
The fact that an action like that is stupid and risky is us admitting that we can do better as a society.

LarryC wrote:

I'm coming down on the opposite side of this. I like that the guy posted that content, whether or not it was true.

You can't wear short skirts, you can't go out by yourself at night, and you can't smile at random men as a woman, because it attracts the wrong sort of attention.

But most importantly, you can never assume that ANY guy will not rape you, especially the ones you know the best. You do not spend time with any guy alone without incurring this risk, and you should not.

There may be an obscure point in some future society where this kind of caution will no longer be necessary, and it's deplorable that this kind of thinking of behavior exists in the world. The kind of damage it does to women is immense, and it circumscribes what women can and cannot do. It is also very unfortunately very real, and it is better that we know than we don't, so we can take precautions.

It is not a myth. It is not "bad guys." It is not creepy looking guys who catcall you. That nice young, outgoing, popular guy with the self-deprecating sense of humor who likes D&D? Yeah, that guy could be a rapist.

While I don't "agree" with this per se, American society seems hell-bent on conditioning its women to think this way. It is my first, albeit fleeting, thought in many situations.

boogle wrote:

The line between acknowledging the risk or certain actions, and using the foreknowledge of that risk to assign blame is a fine out.
The fact that we acknowledge the risks of sexual assault that people undertake in otherwise normal activities (a first date to watch a movie at someones house) is a failing on us as a society for allowing people who violate another person to exist within society.
The fact that an action like that is stupid and risky is us admitting that we can do better as a society.

I'm a pragmatist at heart. Whether or not it means something deeper is really entirely separate. The point is, that's how it is now and it would be foolish to think otherwise or act imprudently. No blame should be assigned to any murder victim whatsoever. At the same time, when the armed guy is asking you for your wallet, you really shouldn't hit his face; even though everything bad happening in a mugging interaction is all on the mugger.

clover:

It seems like the thought should be more than fleeting. My sister used to think that my parents were being unnecessarily paranoid and stupid for insisting on chaperoning her everywhere. I didn't think about it at the time, but that's probably just a prudent measure for everyone concerned.

ZaneRockfist wrote:

It hurts men as well to think this way. It gives people this perception that men are monsters that cannot be around women or children because they 'obviously want to sexually abuse them.' People just have to realize that these incidents are the exception, not the rule, and that living in fear like this does no one any good.

Agree with this completely. If "this is the world and that's the way it is" then there's no chance of me being able to ever be with anyone because if no woman ever opens up to me then I can't get close... similarly, if I'm thought of as the worst monster before I'm even met then the psychological barrier there is immense.

Allowing this to happen but talk about it is a bad thing to happen but allowing this to happen whilst allowing it to continue without dialogue is the worst thing for both genders...

LarryC wrote:

clover:

It seems like the thought should be more than fleeting. My sister used to think that my parents were being unnecessarily paranoid and stupid for insisting on chaperoning her everywhere. I didn't think about it at the time, but that's probably just a prudent measure for everyone concerned.

Well, I didn't add that the rest of the time it's a more articulated thought. I'm trying not to depress you guys with my truly dismal view of society, but suffice to say that awful Reddit posts and other horrible things sadden but don't surprise me.

Sorry, nice guys and socially-awkward-but-harmless dudes, but you need to accept that a world full of assholes has made your life a lot harder. Don't get mad at the women who assume the worst about you until proven otherwise, get mad at all the guys who have taught us it's safer to behave that way.

Larry, the majority of women who aren't completely naive and sheltered already know this. Every woman I know has had these lessons pounded into her from teenage years onward, especially if she was audacious enough to go to college. The rapist's story in that thread makes me sick to the stomach to read but it's not some sort of shocking wake-up call.

What I find unfortunate is that women are drilled extensively to learn to "protect themselves"* but a lot of men don't really get a talk about no, really, no means no, if you pressure her into it it's still rape, just because she's not fighting back doesn't mean it's not rape.

*Spoiler alert: You can't, unless you want to avoid associating with men entirely. Marital rape is a thing, yes, you can get raped by the person you trust most!

Sorry that this sucks for the majority of men who aren't rapists

clover wrote:

Sorry, nice guys and socially-awkward-but-harmless dudes, but you need to accept that a world full of assholes has made your life a lot harder. Don't get mad at the women who assume the worst about you until proven otherwise, get mad at all the guys who have taught us it's safer to behave that way.

I've met my last few girlfriends through online dating sites and sadly, I've had to experience this reality first hand. I often got frustrated at being unfairly lumped in with the douchebags and having to work extra hard to prove I wasn't evil but after hearing many of the women talk about the types of messages they would often receive or their experiences with guys who would seem awesome and then expect to hit the sheets after the first date, I got more understanding of their concerns. It's so frustrating because it seems like an oxymoron that guys who are not bastards have to work many times harder than the ones who are. Even after I started dating my current girlfriend, we had a couple of arguments early on due to her being suspicious of things I would do because they in some minor way resembled things her previous dickish exes would do.

Not really sure what what point I was trying to make with that now that I've typed it but yeah, it can be really demoralising when you're someone you think is a nice guy and having such a hard time getting people to not assume you're evil.

Ulairi wrote:

I have a question: say i meet a girl and i think she's nice to me and all that is it now considered offensive if i ask her out? i'm now participating in rape culture because a girl cannot be nice without me taking it as interest?

I'd imagine it would depend on how you asked, and how you would react if she said no.

clover:

I'd never thought otherwise. It's striking that the thinking is that these rapist dudes "has made life harder" for the average male. It's not true that they've changed the situation; it's just that this existing situation has come to light. That is the value in that Reddit post. It may not be news to everyone, but it is to some.

Demyx:

Maybe it's just that it's that drilled into me, but I don't consider the precautions women enact and the things I have to do to essentially come up with my hands tied behind my back as "sucking." It's just how things are done in a rape culture. Shrug.

Parallax Abstraction:

I think that's more a case of your not being conversant with women concerns about dating and rape. I've had a sister and have a significant number of female friends, so I am aware of their concerns, and it's totally justifiable.

Is it unfair that you're being considered in a lump with a whole population? Sure, but that goes both ways. It makes you work differently when you're thrust into a woman's world, but it makes life easier for you when you're lumped in with "educated folk" or "gainfully employed and experienced folk." It's a natural human pattern-seeking behavior, unfair both for you and against you.

What this Reddit post should mean for all of us men is that we are ALL potentially rapists, in the eyes of women. Fair or not, that's how it is. We need to adjust our thinking and behavior to account for this. For instance, when you walk your female friend alone to her car in the dark, you think you're protecting her from threats, but you also need to consider that YOU could be that rapist. You might never have considered that, but she does; or she should.

The effective way to counter this is to develop and practice signals and practices that unequivocally mark you as a non-rapist. By that, I mean to develop practices around women that make you empirically less of a threat than you would otherwise be. Make it impossible for a rapist to imitate what you're doing except to not rape.

In a way, we men are in competition with rapists for display behavior. We want to display our good intentions and good humor; they want to imitate us so as to get to their targets.

Stengah wrote:
Ulairi wrote:

I have a question: say i meet a girl and i think she's nice to me and all that is it now considered offensive if i ask her out? i'm now participating in rape culture because a girl cannot be nice without me taking it as interest?

I'd imagine it would depend on how you asked, and how you would react if she said no.

Well, yeah, but I was reading one of these "gamer feminist" blogs and she flat out said that rape culture includes the fact that she cannot be nice to a guy without him thinking that she likes him or what not. I haven't gone on a date since 2005. I didn't really date a lot before 2005. But, if I liked a girl I would be nice to her or something like that. I mean there is a difference between being rude but it seems like there is some part of the whole "rape culture" that makes guys kind of bad no matter what we do. I'm not talking about the horrible stuff like reddit, or even the less horrible stuff that happens to girls (Which i believe happens) but I mean, if you're nice to a guy and he says something like "hey, would you like to go see a movie with me" he may read your single wrong but that in itself to me doesn't seem that horrible.

Parallax Abstraction wrote:
clover wrote:

Sorry, nice guys and socially-awkward-but-harmless dudes, but you need to accept that a world full of assholes has made your life a lot harder. Don't get mad at the women who assume the worst about you until proven otherwise, get mad at all the guys who have taught us it's safer to behave that way.

I've met my last few girlfriends through online dating sites and sadly, I've had to experience this reality first hand. I often got frustrated at being unfairly lumped in with the douchebags and having to work extra hard to prove I wasn't evil but after hearing many of the women talk about the types of messages they would often receive or their experiences with guys who would seem awesome and then expect to hit the sheets after the first date, I got more understanding of their concerns. It's so frustrating because it seems like an oxymoron that guys who are not bastards have to work many times harder than the ones who are. Even after I started dating my current girlfriend, we had a couple of arguments early on due to her being suspicious of things I would do because they in some minor way resembled things her previous dickish exes would do.

Not really sure what what point I was trying to make with that now that I've typed it but yeah, it can be really demoralising when you're someone you think is a nice guy and having such a hard time getting people to not assume you're evil.

I have a friend who signed up for EHarmony and she got so many messages basically from guys being crude and asking for sex that I was totally blown away by it. They weren't even trying to hide it.

You know what I think contributes to rape culture? Pornography. I think pornography is so damaging to our society and I know I'll come off as "That crazy Ulairi and his prudish upper class Catholic upbringing" but pornography makes women objects, shows sex to be completely unrealistic, shows the message that any woman that doesn't try to appear as a little girl is disgusting, and all sorts of other horrible things. I think things like this matter. We have guys being raised on this filth and not thinking of women as ladies or anything other than some conduit of pleasure.

Ulairi wrote:
Parallax Abstraction wrote:
clover wrote:

Sorry, nice guys and socially-awkward-but-harmless dudes, but you need to accept that a world full of assholes has made your life a lot harder. Don't get mad at the women who assume the worst about you until proven otherwise, get mad at all the guys who have taught us it's safer to behave that way.

I've met my last few girlfriends through online dating sites and sadly, I've had to experience this reality first hand. I often got frustrated at being unfairly lumped in with the douchebags and having to work extra hard to prove I wasn't evil but after hearing many of the women talk about the types of messages they would often receive or their experiences with guys who would seem awesome and then expect to hit the sheets after the first date, I got more understanding of their concerns. It's so frustrating because it seems like an oxymoron that guys who are not bastards have to work many times harder than the ones who are. Even after I started dating my current girlfriend, we had a couple of arguments early on due to her being suspicious of things I would do because they in some minor way resembled things her previous dickish exes would do.

Not really sure what what point I was trying to make with that now that I've typed it but yeah, it can be really demoralising when you're someone you think is a nice guy and having such a hard time getting people to not assume you're evil.

I have a friend who signed up for EHarmony and she got so many messages basically from guys being crude and asking for sex that I was totally blown away by it. They weren't even trying to hide it.

You know what I think contributes to rape culture? Pornography. I think pornography is so damaging to our society and I know I'll come off as "That crazy Ulairi and his prudish upper class Catholic upbringing" but pornography makes women objects, shows sex to be completely unrealistic, shows the message that any woman that doesn't try to appear as a little girl is disgusting, and all sorts of other horrible things. I think things like this matter. We have guys being raised on this filth and not thinking of women as ladies or anything other than some conduit of pleasure.

Yup. We need to make better, less misogynistic porn, IMO.

Ulairi wrote:

You know what I think contributes to rape culture? Pornography. I think pornography is so damaging to our society and I know I'll come off as "That crazy Ulairi and his prudish upper class Catholic upbringing" but pornography makes women objects, shows sex to be completely unrealistic, shows the message that any woman that doesn't try to appear as a little girl is disgusting, and all sorts of other horrible things. I think things like this matter. We have guys being raised on this filth and not thinking of women as ladies or anything other than some conduit of pleasure.

The problem is that patriarchy was already doing that when pornography was still "draw me like one of your French girls." Let's remember rape wasn't considered a crime against the woman so much as a crime against the man who owned her sexuality. Rape within a marriage wasn't even recognized as rape.

We never thought of women as ladies. We thought of some women as ladies, and the rest as simply a conduit of pleasure. We've always thought of women as objects, just we thought of the 'good girls' as the madonna for our family life and the 'bad girls' as whores for our pleasure.

If anything has changed, it's that the standard for being a 'good girl' is now impossible (e.g. testify about state-subsidized birth control and you have to deal with the suggestion that you owe the taxpayer some home-made porn) so more women are subjected to this. You could see it as a sign of progress: we can't expect the madonna/whore dichotomy to go away quietly, and the flipside of getting rid of it is that some jackoffs who were previously kept in line by a misogynist social code are going to feel free to treat all women like whores.

Ulairi wrote:

You know what I think contributes to rape culture? Pornography. I think pornography is so damaging to our society and I know I'll come off as "That crazy Ulairi and his prudish upper class Catholic upbringing" but pornography makes women objects...

You know what else makes women objects? Religion and the idea religion cultivated that women are the property of men.

LarryC wrote:

Make it impossible for a rapist to imitate what you're doing except to not rape.

*Dons wizard hat and robe*

Actually, that's not going to work...

Seriously though... does anyone have any actual examples of this sort of thing you're talking about Larry? Maybe I'm just being depressing here but I can't see any behaviour that isn't person specific. There's no magical way to act around other people that will make them think that you're not like those they dislike - it's usually built on trust and over time. Is there a way to show you like someone without being too forward and without crossing over the line? No, IMO, there is not in the same way as above because everyone is individual and you won't know where their line is and you won't know how to approach it or how close you're getting to it.
If it was easy enough to change your behaviour to make it so that you're blatantly not a rapist then the rapists would sure as hell be doing it as well...

I've been dumped before because apparently I didn't give off enough signals that I was interested in the woman. I held back because I didn't want to push things or I felt that you can't just rush in to certain things. Some women might appreciate that but others won't.

I'm also a bit uncomfortable* with the idea of rapists being used in much of this conversation. Serial rapists appears to be what we're talking about - people who want to go out and rape again and again - compared with someone who took it too far once in college. There's a huge disparity in mindset there and you have to remember, like all things, we're talking about a spectrum of behaviour. None of it is good or acceptable but I don't think you can apply the same logic to the whole spectrum.

*Not emotionally uncomfortable.

Ulairi wrote:

You know what I think contributes to rape culture? Pornography.

I'm not so sure about this. Yes and no. To a man who hasn't been raised properly with respect for women and other people? Yes, definitely. To a man who has, no, I don't think it would. IMO, it's more of a societal issue that needs to be addressed. Just like sex education and racism, we need to be teaching kids to respect other people and how to be aware of other people in general. We have, it seems to me, become very self-centred as a population from the times of the 60s and 70s when it started to change a little bit in the opposite direction.

Duoae:

There's a way to show it, though it may not be culturally acceptable to you or to women of your culture. You will have to find out and/or settle that for yourselves.

At its most basic, you can just point blank tell the woman - "I want to have sex with you; but I will do it on your terms. Once we get naked, it's on; so don't get naked with me until you're good and ready."

That is a clear and unequivocal message with an explicit agreement to go along with, but it's not threatening and it doesn't involve raping anyone. I don't know whether that counts as "being forward" and "crossing the line." Frankly, I don't know what those are in your culture, and I don't know that I care. Telling someone you want to have sex with them and what agreements you can come to on a personal basis does directly show your interest; whether it's forward or not, it's something that guarantees mutual understanding and consent, so it also precludes rape.

How about not entertaining women alone in your apartment without a chaperone? Lest she mistake the intent, tell her that you will have sex with her if the chaperone is not present. This sends a clear message that the chaperone is both for your mutual protection, and as a signal for an agreement and consent. If she sends the chaperone away, it has a clear and explicit meaning.

A rapist cannot emulate this behavior and still be a rapist because it precludes forcing the other person, while still sending clear and very explicit signals of desire.

To us, it's about blame, it's about fairness and how it plays into our difficulties. So a serial rapist is different from a person "who just went too far once" in college.

To a woman who's in that situation assessing her danger, it doesn't make a whit of difference. Whether or not a rapist is serial or not is secondary to whether or not you're going to get imminently raped!

Moreover, differentiating between rapists and "once-only" guys puts attention on the person, not the activity, and encourages the promulgation of rape culture by clothing the activity in the guise of people. "He's not a rapist! He's really a very nice guy!"

Anyone can be a rapist; and it doesn't matter why or how in the sense of justifying it. Rape is rape and none of it is condoned, whether it's done by a single individual lots or by many individuals each once.

clover wrote:

Sorry, nice guys and socially-awkward-but-harmless dudes, but you need to accept that a world full of assholes has made your life a lot harder. Don't get mad at the women who assume the worst about you until proven otherwise, get mad at all the guys who have taught us it's safer to behave that way.

Thank you.

LarryC wrote:

Duoae:

There's a way to show it, though it may not be culturally acceptable to you or to women of your culture. You will have to find out and/or settle that for yourselves.

At its most basic, you can just point blank tell the woman - "I want to have sex with you; but I will do it on your terms. Once we get naked, it's on; so don't get naked with me until you're good and ready."

That is a clear and unequivocal message with an explicit agreement to go along with, but it's not threatening and it doesn't involve raping anyone. I don't know whether that counts as "being forward" and "crossing the line." Frankly, I don't know what those are in your culture, and I don't know that I care. Telling someone you want to have sex with them and what agreements you can come to on a personal basis does directly show your interest; whether it's forward or not, it's something that guarantees mutual understanding and consent, so it also precludes rape.

How about not entertaining women alone in your apartment without a chaperone? Lest she mistake the intent, tell her that you will have sex with her if the chaperone is not present. This sends a clear message that the chaperone is both for your mutual protection, and as a signal for an agreement and consent. If she sends the chaperone away, it has a clear and explicit meaning.

A rapist cannot emulate this behavior and still be a rapist because it precludes forcing the other person, while still sending clear and very explicit signals of desire.

I do not see how a rapist couldn't emulate that behavior right up until the point he decides to stop emulating it and rape someone.

Parallax Abstraction wrote:
clover wrote:

Sorry, nice guys and socially-awkward-but-harmless dudes, but you need to accept that a world full of assholes has made your life a lot harder. Don't get mad at the women who assume the worst about you until proven otherwise, get mad at all the guys who have taught us it's safer to behave that way.

I've met my last few girlfriends through online dating sites and sadly, I've had to experience this reality first hand. I often got frustrated at being unfairly lumped in with the douchebags and having to work extra hard to prove I wasn't evil but after hearing many of the women talk about the types of messages they would often receive or their experiences with guys who would seem awesome and then expect to hit the sheets after the first date, I got more understanding of their concerns. It's so frustrating because it seems like an oxymoron that guys who are not bastards have to work many times harder than the ones who are. Even after I started dating my current girlfriend, we had a couple of arguments early on due to her being suspicious of things I would do because they in some minor way resembled things her previous dickish exes would do.

Not really sure what what point I was trying to make with that now that I've typed it but yeah, it can be really demoralising when you're someone you think is a nice guy and having such a hard time getting people to not assume you're evil.

Seconded. I had a friend show me her OKCupid inbox once, and for every genuine, nice seeming guy there were at least three raging misogynist assholes.

And may I also chip in to say that while "fixing" porn certainly won't fix society, I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that there's a lot of pretty sexist porn out there. This certainly isn't a be-all-conclusion, but the fact that a search for "female-friendly porn" brings in less than half the hits as "rape porn" does (and half of the hits for "female-friendly porn" are articles about whether such a thing does/truly exists)... again, it's not absolute proof of anything, but I don't think it's a particularly good sign.

As a dude, I think more dudes owning up to their sh*tty attitudes instead of looking to outside sources for blame would have far greater benefit than changing porn. Just a thought.

Stengah wrote:

I do not see how a rapist couldn't emulate that behavior right up until the point he decides to stop emulating it and rape someone.

Too true. The point isn't to make it impossible. That can't be done. If the man is determined to commit a crime, he will find a way. The point is to make it harder to find opportunities to rape, and to make it obvious. No hiding in with the "normals."

It goes without saying that you can't rape someone who is determined to have sex with you. Tis means that we must simply make it obvious and true that women will always have the power to enforce a negative answer. "Learning to respect no," is not the definitive answer. It must be true that the woman can enforce what she wants whether or not the man respects it.

Ergo, whenever she goes over to the guy's place, he must insist that she bring along a powerful friend that she trusts, preferably female also, as chaperone. Insisting, suggesting, or even allowing otherwise should be a red warning flag to any person, and especially to any woman.

Doing so comprehensively will empower women in the dating environment. A prospective rapist could pretend to be normal until he goes out at night and abducts someone, but that kind of criminal activity is dealt with in another way entirely.

LarryC wrote:
Stengah wrote:

I do not see how a rapist couldn't emulate that behavior right up until the point he decides to stop emulating it and rape someone.

Too true. The point isn't to make it impossible. That can't be done. If the man is determined to commit a crime, he will find a way. The point is to make it harder to find opportunities to rape, and to make it obvious. No hiding in with the "normals."

Then why did you use it as an example of a way to "Make it impossible for a rapist to imitate what you're doing except to not rape" which is what Duoae asked for?

It goes without saying that you can't rape someone who is determined to have sex with you.

That makes as much sense as "it's impossible for a man to rape his wife". I figure the example should be spoilered:

Spoiler:

Person A wants to have sex with Person B and Person B wants to have sex with Person A. So they start having sex. Part-way through, B starts to do something A doesn't want, so A tells B to stop. B ignores A's pleas and continues until B is finished. B has raped A despite A wanting to have sex with B.

While "learning to respect No" may not be the definitive answer, it should definitely be one of them, and is one of the more important ones. Ensuring that a woman can enforce her "no" when necessary is certainly a good goal, I think making it so that she doesn't need to is an even better one.

Ulairi wrote:

You know what I think contributes to rape culture? Pornography. I think pornography is so damaging to our society and I know I'll come off as "That crazy Ulairi and his prudish upper class Catholic upbringing" but pornography makes women objects, shows sex to be completely unrealistic, shows the message that any woman that doesn't try to appear as a little girl is disgusting, and all sorts of other horrible things. I think things like this matter. We have guys being raised on this filth and not thinking of women as ladies or anything other than some conduit of pleasure.

I highly recommend Inside Deep Throat, a documentary on the famous first mainstream porn movie and its effects on society. It also shows how the Nixon administration did everything in its power to push pornography underground. Up to ignoring a scientific commission when to their great surprise they decided pornography does not have a significant negative impact, imprisoning the leading actor, and banning the movie from regular cinemas.

The porn industry might have gone in a whole other direction if not for these repressive measures.

Ulairi wrote:

You know what I think contributes to rape culture? Pornography. I think pornography is so damaging to our society and I know I'll come off as "That crazy Ulairi and his prudish upper class Catholic upbringing" but pornography makes women objects, shows sex to be completely unrealistic, shows the message that any woman that doesn't try to appear as a little girl is disgusting, and all sorts of other horrible things. I think things like this matter. We have guys being raised on this filth and not thinking of women as ladies or anything other than some conduit of pleasure.

I don't think you are crazy at all. I think you make a very good point.

Amoebic wrote:
clover wrote:

Sorry, nice guys and socially-awkward-but-harmless dudes, but you need to accept that a world full of assholes has made your life a lot harder. Don't get mad at the women who assume the worst about you until proven otherwise, get mad at all the guys who have taught us it's safer to behave that way.

Thank you.

I guess the problem then is that you can't get mad at anyone - any more so than you can get mad at those kitten and puppy murderers... cause no one knows who they are! So, saying, "get mad at the assholes" is not going to get us anywhere. The nice guys just get things bad, women get things the worst and the offenders keep on doing it because they very rarely get theirs because no one talks about it (and that's a whole different kettle of fish to open!).

We need it taught to us in school as a society from an early age. It won't stop everyone any more than being taught that murder (except of "bad guys") is bad stops serial killers but it might make a lot of people more aware of this issue. Of course, along with sex-ed these things will never be addressed because the religious adults won't allow it.... and, in general, parents do not do their job properly with respect to these issues - at least not to the gender that needs this talk...

SallyNasty wrote:
Ulairi wrote:

You know what I think contributes to rape culture? Pornography. I think pornography is so damaging to our society and I know I'll come off as "That crazy Ulairi and his prudish upper class Catholic upbringing" but pornography makes women objects, shows sex to be completely unrealistic, shows the message that any woman that doesn't try to appear as a little girl is disgusting, and all sorts of other horrible things. I think things like this matter. We have guys being raised on this filth and not thinking of women as ladies or anything other than some conduit of pleasure.

I don't think you are crazy at all. I think you make a very good point.

I think it's putting the cart in front of the horse. Maybe there's some argument to be made about a feedback loop, but I'm just not seeing it, at least as something to single out. I mean, we might as well blame horror movies for this view of women because the Final Girl is often the virgin, and the bad girls are often punished by dying along the way.

Prederick wrote:

And may I also chip in to say that while "fixing" porn certainly won't fix society, I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that there's a lot of pretty sexist porn out there. This certainly isn't a be-all-conclusion, but the fact that a search for "female-friendly porn" brings in less than half the hits as "rape porn" does (and half of the hits for "female-friendly porn" are articles about whether such a thing does/truly exists)... again, it's not absolute proof of anything, but I don't think it's a particularly good sign.

I don't think non-sexist porn is going to necessarily be female-friendly, anymore than the covers of romance novels are going to appeal to men. I'm not even sure people watch certain kinds of porn because that's what they're into. Not every mommy out there downloading "50 Shades of Gray" to her Kindle is necessarily looking for that fantasy to become reality.

CheezePavilion wrote:
SallyNasty wrote:
Ulairi wrote:

You know what I think contributes to rape culture? Pornography. I think pornography is so damaging to our society and I know I'll come off as "That crazy Ulairi and his prudish upper class Catholic upbringing" but pornography makes women objects, shows sex to be completely unrealistic, shows the message that any woman that doesn't try to appear as a little girl is disgusting, and all sorts of other horrible things. I think things like this matter. We have guys being raised on this filth and not thinking of women as ladies or anything other than some conduit of pleasure.

I don't think you are crazy at all. I think you make a very good point.

I think it's putting the cart in front of the horse. Maybe there's some argument to be made about a feedback loop, but I'm just not seeing it, at least as something to single out. I mean, we might as well blame horror movies for this view of women because the Final Girl is often the virgin, and the bad girls are often punished by dying along the way.

Prederick wrote:

And may I also chip in to say that while "fixing" porn certainly won't fix society, I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that there's a lot of pretty sexist porn out there. This certainly isn't a be-all-conclusion, but the fact that a search for "female-friendly porn" brings in less than half the hits as "rape porn" does (and half of the hits for "female-friendly porn" are articles about whether such a thing does/truly exists)... again, it's not absolute proof of anything, but I don't think it's a particularly good sign.

I don't think non-sexist porn is going to necessarily be female-friendly, anymore than the covers of romance novels are going to appeal to men. I'm not even sure people watch certain kinds of porn because that's what they're into. Not every mommy out there downloading "50 Shades of Gray" to her Kindle is necessarily looking for that fantasy to become reality.

Cheeze, have you ever watched porn? Have you ever had sex? Have you ever had sex like the sex portrayed in porn? Have you ever fantasized about the sex seen in porn? I just don't think most people would come up with the ideas for sex that you see in porn on their own, and I think that is kind of where Ulairi was coming from - and it is a point I agree. I don't think it is at all putting the cart in front of the horse.

SallyNasty wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:
SallyNasty wrote:
Ulairi wrote:

You know what I think contributes to rape culture? Pornography. I think pornography is so damaging to our society and I know I'll come off as "That crazy Ulairi and his prudish upper class Catholic upbringing" but pornography makes women objects, shows sex to be completely unrealistic, shows the message that any woman that doesn't try to appear as a little girl is disgusting, and all sorts of other horrible things. I think things like this matter. We have guys being raised on this filth and not thinking of women as ladies or anything other than some conduit of pleasure.

I don't think you are crazy at all. I think you make a very good point.

I think it's putting the cart in front of the horse. Maybe there's some argument to be made about a feedback loop, but I'm just not seeing it, at least as something to single out. I mean, we might as well blame horror movies for this view of women because the Final Girl is often the virgin, and the bad girls are often punished by dying along the way.

Prederick wrote:

And may I also chip in to say that while "fixing" porn certainly won't fix society, I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that there's a lot of pretty sexist porn out there. This certainly isn't a be-all-conclusion, but the fact that a search for "female-friendly porn" brings in less than half the hits as "rape porn" does (and half of the hits for "female-friendly porn" are articles about whether such a thing does/truly exists)... again, it's not absolute proof of anything, but I don't think it's a particularly good sign.

I don't think non-sexist porn is going to necessarily be female-friendly, anymore than the covers of romance novels are going to appeal to men. I'm not even sure people watch certain kinds of porn because that's what they're into. Not every mommy out there downloading "50 Shades of Gray" to her Kindle is necessarily looking for that fantasy to become reality.

Cheeze, have you ever watched porn? Have you ever had sex? Have you ever had sex like the sex portrayed in porn? Have you ever fantasized about the sex seen in porn? I just don't think most people would come up with the ideas for sex that you see in porn on their own, and I think that is kind of where Ulairi was coming from - and it is a point I agree. I don't think it is at all putting the cart in front of the horse.

Wait, are you talking about having a distaste for the things in porn, or are you talking about porn contributing to rape culture?