Peter Jackson directs "The Hobbit"

Spoiler:

You're taking about the Redhorn Gate. He tried to use it. Remember the bit in the snow where they were climbing up the mountain and had to go back because of the storms on Caradharas? The door with the Guardian was a second choice.

And yes, I need to get out more. QED on that.

Malor wrote:
1. "LOTR had too much levity! Legolas shield surfing and whatnot!"
2. "The Hobbit is not going to have enough levity! Where're all the singing and silliness?!"

Pople are holding the movies to different standards because the books are different. The Hobbit is supposed to be fun, so grim awfulness shouldn't really be in that movie, and LOTR is supposed to be dark, so shield-surfing doesn't belong there. The Hobbit is lighthearted and slightly silly; the Lord of the Rings is a massive work that's very grim and serious.

If you haven't actually read the books, you probably should -- you'd understand how silly you look for pointing out the 'contradictions'.

You, sir, presume to much when saying that I didn't read the books. Yes I did read them, as well as The Silmarillion and The Lost Tales.

I am not going to hold the shield surfing, or the comical relief provided by Gimli and Pippin/Merry, against the sheer magnificence of a masterpiece that are the LOTR films. I do not think LOTR is, or was supposed to be grim per se. Solemn at times, but overall definitely not grim. And even if it were, it's entirely within PJ's creative license to spruce up the 2.5hr movie with a lil' shield surfing relief here or there. Simply not that big of a deal - well, to me, anyway.

Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:
Malor wrote:
1. "LOTR had too much levity! Legolas shield surfing and whatnot!"
2. "The Hobbit is not going to have enough levity! Where're all the singing and silliness?!"

Pople are holding the movies to different standards because the books are different. The Hobbit is supposed to be fun, so grim awfulness shouldn't really be in that movie, and LOTR is supposed to be dark, so shield-surfing doesn't belong there. The Hobbit is lighthearted and slightly silly; the Lord of the Rings is a massive work that's very grim and serious.

If you haven't actually read the books, you probably should -- you'd understand how silly you look for pointing out the 'contradictions'.

You, sir, presume to much when saying that I didn't read the books. Yes I did read them, as well as The Silmarillion and The Lost Tales.

I am not going to hold the shield surfing, or the comical relief provided by Gimli and Pippin/Merry, against the sheer magnificence of a masterpiece that are the LOTR films. I do not think LOTR is, or was supposed to be grim per se. Solemn at times, but overall definitely not grim. And even if it were, it's entirely within PJ's creative license to spruce up the 2.5hr movie with a lil' shield surfing relief here or there. Simply not that big of a deal - well, to me, anyway.

I would like to sign up for your 800 pound newsletter. +1.

momgamer wrote:
Spoiler:

You're taking about the Redhorn Gate. He tried to use it. Remember the bit in the snow where they were climbing up the mountain and had to go back because of the storms on Caradharas? The door with the Guardian was a second choice.

And yes, I need to get out more. QED on that. ;)

Spoiler:

I thought the name of the pass was the Redhorn Gate. I don't recall them ever entering the cave that was used as the entrance to the Goblin tunnels in the Hobbit. Though the entrance at the back of that cave "snapped shut" if I remember correctly, so perhaps Gandalf figured (possibly correctly) that it was destroyed.

Oh... didn't Bilbo get Sting in the Troll cave? I don't think he ever entered a barrow.

For anyone who enjoyed The Silmarillion, I'd suggest The Children of Hurin. It's by far the darkest of Tolkien's stories, but covers some of the more interesting aspects of the First Age in detail.

complexmath wrote:
momgamer wrote:
Spoiler:

You're taking about the Redhorn Gate. He tried to use it. Remember the bit in the snow where they were climbing up the mountain and had to go back because of the storms on Caradharas? The door with the Guardian was a second choice.

And yes, I need to get out more. QED on that. ;)

Spoiler:

I thought the name of the pass was the Redhorn Gate. I don't recall them ever entering the cave that was used as the entrance to the Goblin tunnels in the Hobbit. Though the entrance at the back of that cave "snapped shut" if I remember correctly, so perhaps Gandalf figured (possibly correctly) that it was destroyed.

Oh... didn't Bilbo get Sting in the Troll cave? I don't think he ever entered a barrow.

For anyone who enjoyed The Silmarillion, I'd suggest The Children of Hurin. It's by far the darkest of Tolkien's stories, but covers some of the more interesting aspects of the First Age in detail.

I've read Children of Hurin. I'd recommend reading the Silmarillion first, though.

Spoiler:

We're talking about the same thing. Caradharas means "redhorn" in Sindarin. Sorry - I used the name they used in the movie to help avoid confusion and it did the exact opposite. The entrance to the goblin's realm is a cave high up in that Pass. In the Hobbit, it's also called "The Front Porch" by the goblins and Smeagol. That's the entrance Gandalf was aiming the Fellowship for. When the storms pushed them back, he had to go use the gate where the Watcher lives instead (also called Westgate or the Doors of Durin).

As far Sting, it was found in the troll-hoard which contained a bunch of important stuff like Glamdring and Orcrist. The hoard was in a hole in the ground dug by the trolls and if I remember correctly they call it a barrow in the text. If I miss-spoke and caused more confusion, I'm sorry.

Isn't it interesting that the very first conflict in The Hobbit establishes the "kill boss monsters, get epic loot" Skinner box that now defines most gamers' lives. Not that lavish prizes after defeating a monster was a new thing, but it reminded us how satisfying it could be.

I just thought of another approach for the elves. Maybe the ones doing the teasing are very young and either just hanging out there and being teenagers or stuck doing some boring patrol and deciding to entertain themselves when they run into a bunch of damp short people.

Spoiler:

I'll be the super nerd this time, sorry, but the goblin caves in the Hobbit are not connected to Moria as Momgamer suggests. They happen to be located on the misty mountains, but that's pretty much it. The caves in the hobbit are more or less at the same lattitude than Rivendell being it located near the northern/ "high" pass whether Moria's entrance is located far downsouth. I hate to be that guy : (

IMAGE(http://blog.lefigaro.fr/hightech/middle-earth-map.jpg)

The Redhorn Gate is a pass between Caradhras (Redhorn) to the north and Celebdil (Silvertine) to the south. The fellowship travelled south a decent way (20 miles?) to find the Moria entrance, so Moria is essentially beneath the Silvertine, and Durin's Tower, where Gandalf fought the Balrog is at the peak of the Silvertine. According to my Atlas of Middle Earth, the Bilbos' exit from the Goblin Complex is north-east of his entrance, i.e. those caverns are underneath Caradhras.

However, given that Moria spans 40 miles East-West according to Gandalf, it's not impossible that it could span that far to the north, though there's no evidence for it.

Who said Tolkien fans were tedious pedants? We're having fun, right?

DudleySmith wrote:

Who said Tolkien fans were tedious pedants? We're having fun, right?

/puts on Hawkwind album
/skins up

My complaint isn't that comedic relief exists, it's in the overall tone. Yes, The Hobbit has grim moments, but Mirkwood is NOT Moria, and was never meant to be. Mirkwood is a classic adventure with classic "How will Bilbo and his friends get out of THIS one? Find out on the next episode of The Hobbit, brought to you by Ovaltine!"

The one moment it approaches more mature territory is The Battle of Five Armies, which is partly there to drive a point home.

Are these locations important in Lord of the Rings? Yes. Do they need to be included? No, otherwise J.R.R. Tolkien would have changed a lot more than Riddles in the Dark and a few other passages in The Hobbit when he began work on Lord of the Rings.

DudleySmith wrote:

Who said Tolkien fans were tedious pedants? We're having fun, right?

It's not their fault, so was Tolkien.

DudleySmith wrote:

The Redhorn Gate is a pass between Caradhras (Redhorn) to the north and Celebdil (Silvertine) to the south. The fellowship travelled south a decent way (20 miles?) to find the Moria entrance, so Moria is essentially beneath the Silvertine, and Durin's Tower, where Gandalf fought the Balrog is at the peak of the Silvertine. According to my Atlas of Middle Earth, the Bilbos' exit from the Goblin Complex is north-east of his entrance, i.e. those caverns are underneath Caradhras.

However, given that Moria spans 40 miles East-West according to Gandalf, it's not impossible that it could span that far to the north, though there's no evidence for it.

Who said Tolkien fans were tedious pedants? We're having fun, right?

Spoiler:

I think you're dwarfing (intended) the distances between Rivendell and Moria's gate. As I see it, Bilbo's cave could pretty much be at San Francisco while Moria's gate would be around San Diego. Not the most accurate measure but my point is that the distance between both landmarks isn't covered in a journey or two or three. Middle Earth "was" Big, as in Europe Big. The way you put it would have Caradhras standing next to Rivendell with Moria below it : /
The other thing is that while being essentially both locations "caves", the one in the Hobbit is just a hole occupied by freaking goblins, I don't remember it described as anything else than that, there are no dwarvish decorations nor carvings of any kind that comes to mind.
So yeah, I respectfully disagree with that theory that connects both caves and puts Bilbo's exit below Caradhras, though, I would love to take a look at your atlas and see what is it that makes you think there is such a connection or short distance : )

(and just before someone else does it)
IMAGE(http://www.founditemclothing.com/itgoesto11/images/nerds-ogre.jpg)

You mentioned Rivendell, not me. Caradhras and Celebdil are adjacent mountains in the Misty Mountains, and the Redhorn Gate is a pass between them. We know that they attempted the Redhorn Gate on Jan 11, and then on Jan 12 they started from there, finishing at the warg attack on Jan 13, and then stopping inside the Guardroom in Moria (their first camp) after midnight on Jan 14. So, given that it took them 48 hours to get from the Redhorn gate to inside Moria on foot, in mountainous terrain, it's not inconceivable that there could be some underground link.

Tolkien did give some distances. Karen Wynn Fonstad, who made the atlas, used what distances were mentioned in the book, along with the timeline in the back to estimate speed in various modes of travel: 2 - 2.5mph walking, but the Three Hunters made 3mph when they were chasing the orcs.

Feank, that map has a couple of issues, and there's way too many "there be dragons" bits in the Misty Mountains part of it and there's no good scale. It doesn't even name the peaks, so it's hard to see the relations.

Dudley said the rest of it much better than I have time to, and I am the queen of getting lost in any realm so I'll leave you guys to it.

I bet when Peter Jackson goes to the bathroom he says "I'm about to produce The Hobbit" *badum pshssssth*

I think I may haven't explained myself clear enough. I'm not sure if my arguments are coming out offensive, derrogatory or what, if that's the case I'm sorry as they are not intended that way.
Just to be clear I'm not arguing about Moria being below Caradhras or Celebdil, I'm pointing out that both the Hobbit and LOTR place the two locations we're mixing up pretty much apart from each other. The "High Pass" taken by Bilbo and company lies northeast Rivendell, it was the usual, safe-ish route for anyone crossing the Misty Mountains, while Moria, Caradhras and Celebdil are weeks of walking distance southwards, and the redhorn pass was a risky bet in terms of safety. It may happen to be 20 miles from the redhorn pass south of Caradhras to the gate of Moria, but to get there first the Fellowship had to walk South at least a week (I'm betting on two/three thou) from Rivendell. Goblin cave/High pass Northeast of Rivendell. Moria/Caradhras/Redhorn Pass

Momgamer, I'm sorry, I didn't want to create a ruckus here (hence my "I hate to be that guy" comments). About the maps, sure there are some inconsistencies here and there but I haven't seen any other map where what I am pointing out is refuted or proven wrong. If that's the case oh well, I don't have to read Tolkien with such a map as I'm happy with the classic one (you can even tell the three peaks over Moria as Tolkien did made them a bit taller than the rest)

I hadn't argued about Tolkien in a decade, not sure if this makes me feel younger, nerdier or older and grumpier. Merry Xmas thou!

Ah, I've just worked out where the confusion came in. Bilbo et al didn't take the Redhorn gate, but the one marked "High Pass" on your map, which was 2 weeks' travel north of Moria. You're absolutely correct. I got it into my head that the Hobbit group went that way, when they didn't go anywhere near there.

iaintgotnopants wrote:
Barab wrote:

I think I'm going to take the time between now and next December to finish my 15 year quest of actually reading The Silmarillion.

SO BORING!

I enjoyed the Silmarillion. It wasn't a rollicking read by any means, but the background to all the references in LOTR and the Hobbit was fascinating.

MrDeVil909 wrote:
iaintgotnopants wrote:
Barab wrote:

I think I'm going to take the time between now and next December to finish my 15 year quest of actually reading The Silmarillion.

SO BORING!

I enjoyed the Silmarillion. It wasn't a rollicking read by any means, but the background to all the references in LOTR and the Hobbit was fascinating.

I agree with you 100%.

MrDeVil909 wrote:
iaintgotnopants wrote:
Barab wrote:

I think I'm going to take the time between now and next December to finish my 15 year quest of actually reading The Silmarillion.

SO BORING!

I enjoyed the Silmarillion. It wasn't a rollicking read by any means, but the background to all the references in LOTR and the Hobbit was fascinating.

I managed to keep up with it while it described the elven history and the exodus from Valinor because those guys managed to live long enough to have their stories last several pages. Then came the human kings and I gave up after three dynasties changed in one page.

Well, yeah, the Silmarillion is a tough read, it is amazing it happens to be so darn good even though it isn't supposed to be a proper book.

Also, a pity Mex's joke went below the table amidst the Moria/Goblin cave affair : ) Bravo sir, Bravo.

momgamer wrote:
Spoiler:

We're talking about the same thing. Caradharas means "redhorn" in Sindarin. Sorry - I used the name they used in the movie to help avoid confusion and it did the exact opposite. The entrance to the goblin's realm is a cave high up in that Pass. In the Hobbit, it's also called "The Front Porch" by the goblins and Smeagol. That's the entrance Gandalf was aiming the Fellowship for. When the storms pushed them back, he had to go use the gate where the Watcher lives instead (also called Westgate or the Doors of Durin).

As far Sting, it was found in the troll-hoard which contained a bunch of important stuff like Glamdring and Orcrist. The hoard was in a hole in the ground dug by the trolls and if I remember correctly they call it a barrow in the text. If I miss-spoke and caused more confusion, I'm sorry.

Spoiler:

Unless I'm misreading what you wrote, I think you might still be off. They were aiming to avoid entering Moria all-together, at Aragorn's insistence. Only when the storm pushes them back did they finally agree to enter Moria

Slacker1913 wrote:

"To dungeons deep and caverns old"
*shiver*

Same here. I sang that song (among others) in a school production of The Hobbit back in the 80s. Different melody, of course. But still made me feel like a kid again

Can't wait.

Feeank wrote:

Well, yeah, the Silmarillion is a tough read, it is amazing it happens to be so darn good even though it isn't supposed to be a proper book.

Also, a pity Mex's joke went below the table amidst the Moria/Goblin cave affair : ) Bravo sir, Bravo.

Keepin' it classy

Tanglebones wrote:

Pat Rothfuss:
Concerning Hobbits, Love, and Movie Adaptations

Some fans will NEVER be happy.

WizKid wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

Pat Rothfuss:
Concerning Hobbits, Love, and Movie Adaptations

Some fans will NEVER be happy.

I wonder who his high school crush was.

[size=6]and where her site is[/size]

Tanglebones wrote:

Pat Rothfuss:
Concerning Hobbits, Love, and Movie Adaptations

I take his point. And you can read that as I'm on the verge of agreeing with him.

As much as I enjoyed the LoTR films, I'm also nostalgic for a time when the textures and colors of Tolkien's stories were in a place that was private to me in the way that only a book could be.
If you air those epic moments and little dramas out in the way that Jackson did, then it can feel like the world is now in on a secret that previously only you knew, making the whole secret less personal and less interesting for everybody.

It makes me sad that there are people out there whose only exposure to the histories and personalities from the Lord of the Rings are the cariacatures that Jackson has created. Like the 'real thing', but not quite.

But I'm still going to watch and love the movie. Hypocritical? Maybe.

If anyone wants to dive into a textual analysis of The Hobbit (and Tolkien's other works), check out the Tolkien Professor podcast. (The website links are a little broken at the moment, but the iTunes feed seems to work.)