Microsoft Surface

Rezzy wrote:

You beat me to my edit.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

The iPad actually does work pretty well as an alternative to a talker or sound board for some people who are disabled and have trouble with speech.

For those cases where there aren't other factors such as severely restricted mobility or cognitive issues at play. But because it works so well for some it is expected to work well for everyone and that bubble of hope is very very painful to pop for families that are grasping at ways to help their sons and daughters develop.

I chose my words carefully. I have a non-verbal disabled child, so I'm familiar with at least the parenting side of this. I've cringed to see news stories that play up the iPad as a communication tool for the speech impaired, because I do feel like that's been read by many as just one more way that the iPad is a Device Made of Pure Miracles. But I can't discount the very real benefits it's had for some patients.

To tie this back to the thread topic: I hope that having tablets so strongly integrated into the Windows development platform can help decrease the development costs and increase the availability and affordability of assistive software.

The consumer has shown willingness to pay $800+ for the top end iPad models.. I'm not sure offering a similar if not superior Desktop/Tablet experience in a single device isnt without some attraction to some people.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

I chose my words carefully.

And since my first post didn't I chose to edit it out. The place I work recognizes the impact iPads are having in certain fields, which is why we've bought one for every speech and language pathologist in direct contact with children and most of our Autism team last year.

Rezzy wrote:

?

The iPad actually does work pretty well as an alternative to a talker or sound board for some people who are disabled and have trouble with speech.

Rezzy wrote:
ClockworkHouse wrote:

I chose my words carefully.

And since my first post didn't I chose to edit it out.

Snipped it from my response.

TheGameguru wrote:

The consumer has shown willingness to pay $800+ for the top end iPad models.. I'm not sure offering a similar if not superior Desktop/Tablet experience in a single device isnt without some attraction to some people.

I think you're probably right but in order to get developers on board in a big way, this thing has to move numbers and has to get mainstream popular. If people can buy an entry level iPad for $500 or what they see as the entry level of this for $800...I dunno.

Moving to tech.

Parallax Abstraction wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:

The consumer has shown willingness to pay $800+ for the top end iPad models.. I'm not sure offering a similar if not superior Desktop/Tablet experience in a single device isnt without some attraction to some people.

I think you're probably right but in order to get developers on board in a big way, this thing has to move numbers and has to get mainstream popular. If people can buy an entry level iPad for $500 or what they see as the entry level of this for $800...I dunno.

Possibly...but given it can run most Windows apps with minor updates it should be fairly easy to get at least some apps up and running.. It looks like Microsoft is making it as simple as possible to build Windows 8 Metro apps as well as Windows 8 Phone Apps so that bodes well.

I dont believe you will ever see the sheer raw numbers of apps on the Metro side that you do on the iOS side.. but after the initial download frenzy I've settled into just a handful of truly "useful" apps. Games are the predominate app I now download on the iOS side. I've got just about all the productivity apps I could really ever use.

And naturally the really "big" apps should come across (Facebook..Twitter...Netflix..etc..)

I don't believe the RT ARM based Tablets will be $800 either.. probably $600-$700 to compete better with iPad's. The $800-$1000 will be for the Pro versions and you have to market those appropriately.

Yeah, that I could totally believe. I'm really stoked to see the x86 ones. I'm hoping we'll get authorisation to buy one for testing for the office cause like I said somewhere before, a proper Windows tablet that's not crap would be a boon from the IT gods for what we do at this company. I was encouraged by the Windows Phone 8 thing yesterday about how it's apparently going to be easy to port certain DirectX titles to phones and tablets now, I think that's a really smart move that will give a boost to the gaming ecosystem on the platform. It looks like Microsoft is making WP8 much more corporate friendly from a security standpoint too, likely because they know RIM's in free fall and neither of the other major ecosystems offer the level of enterprise lock down BlackBerry does. I'll wait for the verdict on the real Windows Phone 8 devices but if they can actually make that, the tablets and the desktops work together as seamlessly as Apple does, this could be a big deal.

TheGameguru wrote:

The consumer has shown willingness to pay $800+ for the top end iPad models.. I'm not sure offering a similar if not superior Desktop/Tablet experience in a single device isnt without some attraction to some people.

The problem is that developers not only have the $500 iPad to lean on, but they have the knowledge that they can create apps that run on the iPhone and iPod Touch as well. The install base is huge. Microsoft can't afford to put their platform out of reach of average consumers.

DSGamer wrote:

The problem is that developers not only have the $500 iPad to lean on, but they have the knowledge that they can create apps that run on the iPhone and iPod Touch as well. The install base is huge. Microsoft can't afford to put their platform out of reach of average consumers.

The average computer that own the hundreds of millions of Windows PCs that will run these same apps over time as they invariably get upgraded to Win 8, Win 9 with their next PC? Those numbers are bigger than current iOS sold numbers. I believe Win 7 alone is nearing 700 million units.

The potential market is extremely significant. Whether that potential is realized is the question. And it's a big one, I'll grant.

MannishBoy wrote:

The average computer that own the hundreds of millions of Windows PCs that will run these same apps over time as they invariably get upgraded to Win 8, Win 9 with their next PC? Those numbers are bigger than current iOS sold numbers. I believe Win 7 alone is nearing 700 million units.

I fully expect that Win7 is the new WinXP and that Win8 will be the new Vista, meaning that most consumers (and enterprise) will skip Win8 (on desktops and laptops) because Win7 is so good. Also worth noting is the obvious trend that PC sales are declining and tablets sales are growing rapidly, so many of those hundreds of millions of Windows PCs may be replaced by tablets instead of being upgraded to Win 8 or 9.

MannishBoy wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

The problem is that developers not only have the $500 iPad to lean on, but they have the knowledge that they can create apps that run on the iPhone and iPod Touch as well. The install base is huge. Microsoft can't afford to put their platform out of reach of average consumers.

The average computer that own the hundreds of millions of Windows PCs that will run these same apps over time as they invariably get upgraded to Win 8, Win 9 with their next PC? Those numbers are bigger than current iOS sold numbers. I believe Win 7 alone is nearing 700 million units.

The potential market is extremely significant. Whether that potential is realized is the question. And it's a big one, I'll grant.

I agree. Heck, they could sell one to me at the right price. But not at $800 and only if I have some hope of playing modern PC games. That's what's so confusing about the non "Pro" version of the tablet. With arm processors wouldn't it be out of the running to play games beyond the ones developed for Windows Phone 7?

You could probably theoretically port DOSBox to Win7 ARM, but A) Microsoft might not allow it, and B) even if the JIT engine works on ARM (highly questionable), you probably couldn't do much more than 25Mhz or so. Emulation needs all the CPU grunt you can throw at it, and ARM just isn't very grunty.

The average computer that own the hundreds of millions of Windows PCs that will run these same apps over time as they invariably get upgraded to Win 8, Win 9 with their next PC?

I think forcing Metro down people's throats, to try to make this happen, is going to destroy Win8 as a consumer product. Making Metro available would have been one thing, but forcing it is quite another.

MeatMan wrote:
MannishBoy wrote:

The average computer that own the hundreds of millions of Windows PCs that will run these same apps over time as they invariably get upgraded to Win 8, Win 9 with their next PC? Those numbers are bigger than current iOS sold numbers. I believe Win 7 alone is nearing 700 million units.

I fully expect that Win7 is the new WinXP and that Win8 will be the new Vista, meaning that most consumers (and enterprise) will skip Win8 (on desktops and laptops) because Win7 is so good. Also worth noting is the obvious trend that PC sales are declining and tablets sales are growing rapidly, so many of those hundreds of millions of Windows PCs may be replaced by tablets instead of being upgraded to Win 8 or 9.

It's an interesting scenario, if lots of people run out and get windows ARM tablets, I'd argue that might as well be a whole new OS (as opposed to a new version of an established OS) owing to the lack of windows executable compatibility. It'll have some of the same conventions, along with a bunch of new ones, but so many of the rules have changed to think of it as a PC replacement any more than a tablet with any other OS.

To me it seems partially comparable to Win8 on the desktop, if you're going so far to change it, how much further do you need to go before you're learning a whole new OS.

MeatMan wrote:
MannishBoy wrote:

The average computer that own the hundreds of millions of Windows PCs that will run these same apps over time as they invariably get upgraded to Win 8, Win 9 with their next PC? Those numbers are bigger than current iOS sold numbers. I believe Win 7 alone is nearing 700 million units.

I fully expect that Win7 is the new WinXP and that Win8 will be the new Vista, meaning that most consumers (and enterprise) will skip Win8 (on desktops and laptops) because Win7 is so good.

Even Vista by itself sold more copies than the reported number of iOS devices sold to date.

Also worth noting is the obvious trend that PC sales are declining and tablets sales are growing rapidly, so many of those hundreds of millions of Windows PCs may be replaced by tablets instead of being upgraded to Win 8 or 9.

But if you could buy a tablet that does both?

I think the numbers I've seen suggested tablets overtaking desktops, but that laptops will still outsell both for the foreseeable future. But as you can do more with a tablet, I'm sure that will continue to converge.

http://techpinions.com/the-apple-ipad-tablet-vs-the-microsoft-surface-anti-tablet/7363

Interesting article. Boiling it down they call out the Surface as wanting to do everything but be a touchscreen tablet (thus anti-tablet). The iPad is nothing but a touchscreen tablet and that is why it has succeeded. I get something else out of the article, however. I see it as MS giving me choices, whereas the Apple is the anti-choice company.

I don't get that "anti-choice" argument. Are you upset the iPhone doesn't allow you to do more than what it does? The iPod? Your car? Your pen? Your shoes? These things were built to do specific things. Saying that they don't allow you to do what they weren't meant to do doesn't make sense to me.

lostlobster wrote:

I don't get that "anti-choice" argument. Are you upset the iPhone doesn't allow you to do more than what it does? The iPod? Your car? Your pen? Your shoes? These things were built to do specific things. Saying that they don't allow you to do what they weren't meant to do doesn't make sense to me.

Agreed..but it's no more ludicrous than the opposite argument. I fairly confident that lack of apps won't be the downfall of the Windows 8 "experiment" There are so many more important issues

TheGameguru wrote:

Agreed..but it's no more ludicrous than the opposite argument. I fairly confident that lack of apps won't be the downfall of the Windows 8 "experiment" There are so many more important issues

I'm starting to get the vibe that Microsoft is starting to understand a little more about Apples Secret Sauce.

They are building their own tablet, and I've seen rumors we will see a Microsoft phone for WP8. I don't know how well it will work, but right now, if you are looking at an iPad or iPhone, you know what to expect. If you want a WP7 phone or Android phone or tablet, you have some research to do.

It will be interesting to see how well a software company can pull off making hardware to sell their OS versus a hardware company that makes OS's to sell their hardware. But I won't bet against Microsoft.

Nevin73 wrote:

http://techpinions.com/the-apple-ipad-tablet-vs-the-microsoft-surface-anti-tablet/7363

Interesting article. Boiling it down they call out the Surface as wanting to do everything but be a touchscreen tablet (thus anti-tablet). The iPad is nothing but a touchscreen tablet and that is why it has succeeded. I get something else out of the article, however. I see it as MS giving me choices, whereas the Apple is the anti-choice company.

What Apple understands is that 90% of the market just wants the object they buy to fulfill the task they want it to do. All of the options to do a million things tend to obscure the user from from what they really want.

The iPad's genius is that it does a million things without those getting in the way of each other. The way my wife, my daughter, and I each use the iPad is completely different. We emphasize different tasks, use different apps, and view it it vastly different ways.

Yet my daughter can set it down and I can pick it up and instantly do exactly what I want to do with it. I'm not looking for the keyboard or stylist. I'm not trying to save and log in as another user. I just start using it. It's not desktop or laptop replacement. It's a unique tool that, like Tivo, we didn't think we needed until we had one. And now we have to have one.

It's the same issues I had with Android versus my Windows phone. I have less apps to choose from, and a much more closed system. Yet my minute to minute experience with my WP7 phone was so much better than my Android experience.

I'll wait to see what MS did with the Surface with my own eyes before trusting theses kinds of reviews. But if they made an anti-tablet that provides choices, I think they will fail.

The keyboard cover is a cool idea, and I'm anxious to try it out. That said, we've had an iPad since not long after launch and have yet to feel like we needed a keyboard. We might use one if it was convenient enough. But I have a desktop and laptop for that kind of work.

Since I'm in the WP7, and soon to be WP8 space, this tablet has a ton of attraction to me. But I hope they don't try to overthink this, because while a better iPad would great, simplicity is the number one feature.

Jayhawker wrote:

They are building their own tablet, and I've seen rumors we will see a Microsoft phone for WP8. I don't know how well it will work, but right now, if you are looking at an iPad or iPhone, you know what to expect. If you want a WP7 phone or Android phone or tablet, you have some research to do.

I suspect that they'll not make a phone any time soon. I think they're pretty happy with Nokia's designs driving innovation on the phone front, hoping to wake the other OEMs up from just porting Win Phone to Android hardware.

Plus, after all the money they gave Nokia, I don't think they'd go head to head until Nokia fails or it's a last ditch effort to save the platform.

The other thing I can't help thinking about the "it does everything" point, is that most people don't do everything. A PC is an extremely versatile piece of kit, yet I'm confident that most people (myself included about half the time) would probably be content with something like a Raspberry Pi with a bit more memory.

I think about it like tools as well, I could carry around a lot of weight in my car in tools for every eventuality, but it's not worth it, instead I take a small selection that let me do the most common or most important tasks, but accept that there's going to be some things I won't be able to attempt because I don't carry it.

This is what I saw.

(Reuters) - Microsoft Corp is looking at making its own smartphone to kickstart sales of its Windows mobile software, according to a Wall Street analyst who has followed the company for many years.

The talk - unconfirmed by Microsoft - comes a day after the company unveiled its latest Windows Phone 8 software, and the same week it announced an own-brand tablet, signaling a break with 37 years of focusing on software and leaving hardware manufacturing to its partners.

Scratched wrote:

I think about it like tools as well, I could carry around a lot of weight in my car in tools for every eventuality, but it's not worth it, instead I take a small selection that let me do the most common or most important tasks, but accept that there's going to be some things I won't be able to attempt because I don't carry it.

Doesn't really match up to the strategies here, though. They're not talking about something that makes it less portable as in a whole toolbox vs specific tools. They're providing broader options as to how to use a tool of similar portability.

The big question here is if allowing the additional functionality muddles the primary use case or not. It's hard to know right now without seeing how apps evolve and how much can be done for those 90% type tasks in Metro.

I really hope it is priced competitively with the ipad. I don't see myself paying a premium for one unless I know it will serve all my needs. I have two ipads and they are great. Absolutely love them. That said I don't do any real work on them because of limitations of the hardware and OS. First, it doesn't matter if they have 16 or 64 gig of memory. It's not enough. There is simply no way for me to do any real photo editing on them. One session of photos is several gig. With the difficulty in getting files on and off of the device (including office type documents) it's just such a pain to work on it. For work, I have to deal with a lot of access databases as well and that just doesn't work (of course it's the same with a Mac but I have vmware for that).

I'd also like to see the ability to connect easily to network drives. If I could do that I might be more inclined to use the ipad to do real work (not just cloud stuff).

MannishBoy wrote:
MeatMan wrote:

Also worth noting is the obvious trend that PC sales are declining and tablets sales are growing rapidly, so many of those hundreds of millions of Windows PCs may be replaced by tablets instead of being upgraded to Win 8 or 9.

But if you could buy a tablet that does both?

This is why I'm (potentially) intrested in the Pro version, depending on the price, but have no interest in the RT version (already have an Asus Transformer).

EvilHomer3k wrote:

I'd also like to see the ability to connect easily to network drives. If I could do that I might be more inclined to use the ipad to do real work (not just cloud stuff).

Well, it is Windows. Also, Skydrive.

MannishBoy wrote:
EvilHomer3k wrote:

I'd also like to see the ability to connect easily to network drives. If I could do that I might be more inclined to use the ipad to do real work (not just cloud stuff).

Well, it is Windows. Also, Skydrive.

NO SKYDRIVE. Direct connection to a network drive. I'm sure I'm asking too much but I'd also like it to take standard SD cards. None of this microsd crap. What serious camera uses microsd?

EvilHomer3k wrote:
MannishBoy wrote:
EvilHomer3k wrote:

I'd also like to see the ability to connect easily to network drives. If I could do that I might be more inclined to use the ipad to do real work (not just cloud stuff).

Well, it is Windows. Also, Skydrive.

NO SKYDRIVE. Direct connection to a network drive. I'm sure I'm asking too much but I'd also like it to take standard SD cards. None of this microsd crap. What serious camera uses microsd?

Windows has networking, so I'm not sure what you mean. You will have explorer and drive mapping.

Skydrive is just additional stuff that can be handy.

I'm liking microSD cards because they're more flexible. I can use them my phone or media player, but can just as easily put them in an adapter and run them as full SD cards for cameras, etc.