Prometheus - Spoilery thread of Spoilers

hbi2k wrote:
You know what would have given him even more control than that? David for all the reasons you stated above, plus a competent crew of dedicated professionals that knew the mission and didn't die by the dozen. Still sort of think that would be preferable.

This is what I keep going back to. I really enjoyed the themes of the film and the discussion it has created, but I can also think of a lot of science fiction movies that also have done that without resorting to numerous red herrings and characters whose behaviour seems completely dictated by what the scene would like them to do. (Which incidentally was the reason I stopped watching Lost.)

Slumberland wrote:
But, they're not even believable as "bad scientists" are they? They're more like non-scientists. Like Vickers visited a mental institution and asked "who here is a scientist and wants to go to space?" and then picked the first people to avidly raise their hands. I guess mohawk dude did have his sorta-cool "pups" but other than that it's all helmet drills, clumsy field trips and shocking a severed head back to life just to see what happens.

Yeah. That is always a bummer. Map guy can't actually find his way around a rock structure. Guy who likes rocks doesn't do any analysis on the structure to find out that "hey, there's totally a spaceship there". Biologist lady doesn't say "hey, let's not bring foreign organisms on our ship". All the scientists think it makes complete sense to take off their helmets.

The flip side, though, is that if you think about the care with actual archeologists treat dig sites you'd have a super boring movie if they went that direction. You'd have a 12 part mini-series where the first 3 parts were about the 6 months it took to setup a procedure for how to even enter the site.

EDIT: I may not love the conceit, but I think the HULK review is dead on. Especially this.

THEN AGAIN, MAYBE HULK SHOULDN'T BE SURPRISED. THE ENTIRE FILM (LAST HALF ESPECIALLY) IS UNHAPPY MESS OF CONTRADICTIONS. ALL THE CHARACTERS MANAGE TO BECOME THESE BIPOLAR NIGHTMARES. IN WHAT FEELS LIKE A DECISION THAT'S ALREADY FAMOUS, THE TWO SCIENTISTS GO FROM BEING AFRAID OF THEIR OWN SHADOWS TO PETTING DANGEROUS VAGINA SNAKES. AND THEN THERE'S MAIN SCIENTIST GUY WHO GOES FROM REASONABLE AND EXCITABLE TO BEING A DRUNKEN SOURPUSS WHEN HE DOESN'T GET TO TALK TO ALIENS AFTER, LIKE, FIVE SECONDS OF BEING ON THIS PLANET. OH AND ALL THE SCIENTISTS ARE EFFECTIVELY TERRIBLE SCIENTISTS, GIVEN THAT SCIENCE IS ACTUALLY OPTIMISM BASED IN INHERENT SKEPTICISM. HULK COULD GO ON WITH THIS STUFF, BUT THE SAD TRUTH IS THAT EVERY CHARACTER DOESN'T MAKE SENSE AND PRETTY MUCH SUCKS

Of all the un-sciencey (not a word, I know) things in this movie, that was one of the best examples. If you're a scientist, an actual scientist, heck even a competent fictional scientist, you're not trying to find the answers immediately. Show a montage or something, but give us characters who understand that as scientists it's their responsibility to take time in figuring out what they have on their hands.

It's funny, but I watched Prometheus the same weekend as I re-watched 2001. Obviously 2001 is slow and ponderous, but it gets so much right comparatively that it's comical. Heck, even Tree of Life, which many thought was messy, was tighter than Prometheus, IMO.

One thing that keeps getting ignored/missed is that map guy and biologist guy were both high as f*cking kites by the time vagina-worm showed up.

Was just map guy, wasn't it?

Tanglebones wrote:
One thing that keeps getting ignored/missed is that map guy and biologist guy were both high as f*cking kites by the time vagina-worm showed up.

I love that after thousands of years of human history, it's still possible to write a sentence that has never before been written.

Yeah, Dr. Douchebag Boyfriend's drunken meltdown was pretty stupid. I don't think geologist guy deserves the criticism for getting lost, though. The movie repeatedly pointed out that the storm was disrupting communications, and the structure was being mapped back on Prometheus. It's not like he just forgot they had a map.

DSGamer wrote:
Guy who likes rocks doesn't do any analysis on the structure to find out that "hey, there's totally a spaceship there".

Rock guy's probes found the ship. Also he died before the structure was fully mapped.

muttonchop wrote:
Yeah, Dr. Douchebag Boyfriend's drunken meltdown was pretty stupid. I don't think geologist guy deserves the criticism for getting lost, though. The movie repeatedly pointed out that the storm was disrupting communications, and the structure was being mapped back on Prometheus. It's not like he just forgot they had a map.

Yeahbut... they're having a conversation with the Captain who is telling them about the lifeform ping. Couldn't he tell them to "Head half a click behind you, turn right and then left... if you see a McDonald's you've gone too far." or something?

lostlobster wrote:
muttonchop wrote:
Yeah, Dr. Douchebag Boyfriend's drunken meltdown was pretty stupid. I don't think geologist guy deserves the criticism for getting lost, though. The movie repeatedly pointed out that the storm was disrupting communications, and the structure was being mapped back on Prometheus. It's not like he just forgot they had a map.

Yeahbut... they're having a conversation with the Captain who is telling them about the lifeform ping. Couldn't he tell them to "Head half a click behind you, turn right and then left... if you see a McDonald's you've gone too far." or something?


By the time they re-established communications, they were stranded there until the storm died down. He didn't give them directions out because they couldn't leave the structure without getting torn to pieces.

lostlobster wrote:
Was just map guy, wasn't it?

I'm assuming he shared, since there was a lot of time that passed between the reveal of his smoking, and the subsequent scenes.

Montalban wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:
One thing that keeps getting ignored/missed is that map guy and biologist guy were both high as f*cking kites by the time vagina-worm showed up.

I love that after thousands of years of human history, it's still possible to write a sentence that has never before been written.

Pretty sure this already turned up, at least in rough paraphrase, as graffiti on a wall in Pompeii.

I still wonder if Rock/Map Guy was actually claustrophobic, as you technically don't have to go underground to study rocks (and it would also make sense why he has machines that would go underground and survey subterranean structures for him).

On the subject of Bland Scientist Boyfriend, I have determined that there is a direct correlation between the number of times you yell "Whoo!" in an Alien movie and how totally, utterly f*cked you are.

Tanglebones wrote:
lostlobster wrote:
Was just map guy, wasn't it?

I'm assuming he shared, since there was a lot of time that passed between the reveal of his smoking, and the subsequent scenes.

Was there? Perhaps I'm misremembering it, but I thought Mr. High told Mr. Scared about it as they were walking in the big head room. I really wish they'd just named those two guys Shaggy and Scooby

lostlobster wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:
lostlobster wrote:
Was just map guy, wasn't it?

I'm assuming he shared, since there was a lot of time that passed between the reveal of his smoking, and the subsequent scenes.

Was there? Perhaps I'm misremembering it, but I thought Mr. High told Mr. Scared about it as they were walking in the big head room. I really wish they'd just named those two guys Shaggy and Scooby

Yeah, but I vaguely remember them camping out in the big head room for a bit, before sh*t got real. Admittedly, I only saw the film the once, so I probably have my chronology confused.

muttonchop wrote:
lostlobster wrote:
muttonchop wrote:
Yeah, Dr. Douchebag Boyfriend's drunken meltdown was pretty stupid. I don't think geologist guy deserves the criticism for getting lost, though. The movie repeatedly pointed out that the storm was disrupting communications, and the structure was being mapped back on Prometheus. It's not like he just forgot they had a map.

Yeahbut... they're having a conversation with the Captain who is telling them about the lifeform ping. Couldn't he tell them to "Head half a click behind you, turn right and then left... if you see a McDonald's you've gone too far." or something?


By the time they re-established communications, they were stranded there until the storm died down. He didn't give them directions out because they couldn't leave the structure without getting torn to pieces.

Yeah. I guess I'm thinking that if I was scared sh*tless about being in an alien temple I'd want to get as close to the exit and rescue as possible. Of course there's the storm and all, so... I concede the point.

hbi2k wrote:
On the subject of Bland Scientist Boyfriend, I have determined that there is a direct correlation between the number of times you yell "Whoo!" in an Alien movie and how quickly you are totally, utterly f*cked.

Fixed.

I dunno, I think there are definitely levels of f*cked in an Alien movie. I'll take a quick death by decapitation or acid to the face (presumably eating through to the brain and causing death within seconds) over slowly poisoned by black alien goo and then burned to death by Charlize Theron any day. Stupid whoo-shouting mother!@#$er.

Of course, given the choice, I'll take kick back in the cockpit for the first two acts / get laid by Charlize Theron / dead by heroic-if-nonsensical spaceship crash. That's my kind of f*cked.

Given Lindelof's past, I'm just happy we didn't wind up with The Five People You Meet In Heaven or The Rainbow Bridge again.

Also, mopey archaeologist, aside from the obvious inclusion of the Mako, you pointed out exactly why this reminded me so much of Mass Effect. There's obviously only one building on the entire goddamn planet, and if everyone's dead, clearly you came there for nothing. Maybe some Krogan armor, at best.

Did anyone else get a Bioshock vibe near the end, when Shaw got onto Vickers'/Weyland's private pod, with the classical music playing?

Hey gang: http://thebioscopist.com/2012/06/20/...

According to the linguistics consultant on the film, David's line translates to "This man is here because he does not want to die. He believes you can give him more life."

More interestingly, it was part of an actual conversation between David and the Engineer which didn't make the final cut.

Just saw it and thought it was great. Some thoughts, and counterpoints to what's been said already [filthyskimmer]:

- engineer at opening was seeding the Earth

- David infected Holloway for 1 of 2 reasons: 1) because he could; 2) because he needed to test the goo on a subject before taking Weyland out of stasis. I'm more inclined to believe 2 because it's established time and time again that he has no fear, no love, no emotions whatsoever. So doing it because he hates the humans that have been insulting him thus far makes no sense. Also there's that line that Shaw says "we don't know how if it's airborne or not" and David replies "It's not" which led me to believe he was doing some preliminary tests before taking Weyland to the Engineer. The other possibility is that Weyland is just batsh*t insane and wanted a sample to take back to Earth to research and monetize.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7YK2...

- Shaw has doctorates in paleontology, archaeology, human mythology and one other that I can't make out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeZin...
(This is where NOT going on media blackout actually gave me a leg up.) So yeah, I'm inclined to believe she is pretty well versed across alot of the biological sciences as well. Not to mention that this is a universe where a computer can perform a C-section, so they probably have a lot of automation for autopsies.

- One thing Ridley Scott was right about, I certainly saw the 'DNA' of Alien in this. Hiyooooo!

- Not really understanding the issue with Elba's character thinking it might be a weapons facility. I just saw that as his character's interpretation of the situation. There are hawks and doves in every group.

- I found the music to be great, but also strangely out of place. It didn't evoke a sense of dread, but rather more of wonder and exploration. It was more hopeful than ominous.

- the geologist and biologist that got left behind during the storm were not high. Geologist was smoking tobacco, and said so when questioned by the biologist. PAYATTENTIONPEOPLE! And even if you're afraid, won't your scientific curiosity kick in when you see a new, unidentified lifeform? There is also the White People In Horror Movies Rule: instead of running away, get in closer for a better look.

P.S.: Holy sh*t. Re-watching that TED talk gives so much more insight to the motivations of Weyland and David. They really are batsh*t insane.

Wow this is great: http://www.ropeofsilicon.com/what-is...

Its unfortunate that the film wasn't able to convey this information because if this really is the way it was supposed to be, I think it would easily be the film of the summer. I don't need all the answers in a film but this film goes well beyond that into a realm where the only real way to understand it is to exhaustively dissect it after the fact.

Now, if there is a sequel that helps with this information then great but if there isn't then I think after the couple times I've watched it and a couple weeks to reflect on it, I really have no desire to see it again which is a shame.

PAR

nel e nel wrote:
- the geologist and biologist that got left behind during the storm were not high. Geologist was smoking tobacco, and said so when questioned by the biologist. PAYATTENTIONPEOPLE!

Methinks you misunderstood what was actually sarcasm. He was joking. He was getting high. Sometimes it's more important to listen to the tone of what's being said than the actual words themselves.

PAYATTENTIONNELENEL

nel e nel wrote:

- David infected Holloway for 1 of 2 reasons: 1) because he could; 2) because he needed to test the goo on a subject before taking Weyland out of stasis. I'm more inclined to believe 2 because it's established time and time again that he has no fear, no love, no emotions whatsoever. So doing it because he hates the humans that have been insulting him thus far makes no sense.

Eh, no. I have a feeling you misinterpreted why they kept establishing it time and time again. If there was one thing that was made crystal clear in this movie, it was that despite the belief that David shouldn't have emotions, he does. It was a parallel to the Engineers, where you might be the creator and mould something in your image, but what your creations do is ultimately up to them.

And even if you're afraid, won't your scientific curiosity kick in when you see a new, unidentified lifeform?

When he is with the rest of the crew are just looking at a dead body, he panics. When he is alone in the cave and is told there is a blip of another lifeform somewhere else, he panics. It's hard to believe, high or not (and he was high), that curiousity got the better of him when he was stuck in the cave in the dark and saw an extremely hostile-looking creature.

muttonchop wrote:
Yeah, Dr. Douchebag Boyfriend's drunken meltdown was pretty stupid. I don't think geologist guy deserves the criticism for getting lost, though. The movie repeatedly pointed out that the storm was disrupting communications, and the structure was being mapped back on Prometheus. It's not like he just forgot they had a map.

The storm only disrupted communications *after* it hit though, and they got lost before that happened.

kuddles wrote:

Eh, no. I have a feeling you misinterpreted why they kept establishing it time and time again. If there was one thing that was made crystal clear in this movie, it was that despite the belief that David shouldn't have emotions, he does. It was a parallel to the Engineers, where you might be the creator and mould something in your image, but what your creations do is ultimately up to them.

Seconded. David's vengeful, sad, and proud. What's the difference between having a complete understanding of emotional responses and having emotions, after all?

ianunderhill wrote:
kuddles wrote:

Eh, no. I have a feeling you misinterpreted why they kept establishing it time and time again. If there was one thing that was made crystal clear in this movie, it was that despite the belief that David shouldn't have emotions, he does. It was a parallel to the Engineers, where you might be the creator and mould something in your image, but what your creations do is ultimately up to them.

Seconded. David's vengeful, sad, and proud. What's the difference between having a complete understanding of emotional responses and having emotions, after all?

One allows the android to practice and display emotions to elicit a desired response. As part of this, it can cloak itself in emotions to avoid unwanted attention and scrutiny, just like putting on an unnecessary helmet.

The other potentially interferes with the directives that the android is intended to follow.

Thin_J wrote:
nel e nel wrote:
- the geologist and biologist that got left behind during the storm were not high. Geologist was smoking tobacco, and said so when questioned by the biologist. PAYATTENTIONPEOPLE!

Methinks you misunderstood what was actually sarcasm. He was joking. He was getting high. Sometimes it's more important to listen to the tone of what's being said than the actual words themselves.

PAYATTENTIONNELENEL

Oh I heard the tone, I just didn't interpret it that way. I didn't hear any sarcasm. Regardless, he couldn't have shared any with the biologist as it was in his rebreather, and they both had their helmets on.

ianunderhill wrote:
kuddles wrote:

Eh, no. I have a feeling you misinterpreted why they kept establishing it time and time again. If there was one thing that was made crystal clear in this movie, it was that despite the belief that David shouldn't have emotions, he does. It was a parallel to the Engineers, where you might be the creator and mould something in your image, but what your creations do is ultimately up to them.

Seconded. David's vengeful, sad, and proud. What's the difference between having a complete understanding of emotional responses and having emotions, after all?

Well, agree to disagree then. I don't think he had any emotions. I agree with LouZiffer, David was made to fool humans into thinking he actually was human.

P.S. - I'll admit, in the beginning I thought they were doing to do the well-trod robot becoming self aware trope, but in the end I saw him as merely Weyland's tool to achieve immortality.

Squee9 wrote:
Most wrote:
Actually, I could see such a weapon working. It's actually kinda elegant. First, it assimilates all the life on planet, using native dna to adapt perfectly to the new world. Once the Aliens have overrun the world after couple of years, Engineers either spray something or trigger in some other way a very specific trigger which kills all the Aliens. They are genetic witch doctors, they certainly have worked a "backdoor" in their genetic code. An off button. So it's not even so much a weapon as cleaning solution for Petri dish the size of a planet.

I agree with the concept, but I don't think the evidence is there. The dead Engineers and the "hallucinations" (wtf were those?) indicate that the life giving ooze evolved in to something the Engineers clearly could not control, as it slaughtered all of them. Apparently that Alien thing was so scary to the Engineers that they made no attempt to return to that facility after the initial outbreak, if there are even any Engineers remaining.

I'm leaning more towards ianunderhill's claw hammer comparison. The Aliens are a mistake born of the life starting goo that the surviving Engineer decided to use as a weapon against Earth in the *In an Asia voice* heat of the moment.

The 'hallucinations' were a holo-recording of the last hours of the Engineers. At least that's how I interpreted it. And I agree that - based on the holo-recordings - it seems the Engineers were trying to escape...something. Why else would they be scurrying into the Head Room and decapitate one of their own just to save themselves, and lock themselves into cryostasis in the bridge?

The "hallucinations" were another stupid way of getting information across that made no logical sense. Why is that recording there? Why only that small snippet? Why is nobody interested in the fact that a) David knew how to make the thing work, and b) that there could possibly be more information stored that they could watch? It's basically a huge plot arrow pointing the way for the actors to go.