Questions you want answered (P&C Edition)

Well it would not even have to be anything too drastic. Some of the new banking regs went to cut back on bonuses.

How about requiring perfectly open books in corporate bankruptcy, and an allowance for officers to be pursued individually if it turns our that their negligence, malice, etc. led to the downfall of the company? You would not need to do anything with the FTC, the SEC, or the Justice Dept. What would be needed is an expansion of the class of people who have standing to sue.

Demyx wrote:
As the nation changes and evolves there will always be those that push back on every little change because it's not what they grew up with so therefore it can't be good.

I don't think it's quite as simple as all that. In a lot of cases, there is a (sometimes justified, even if selfish) fear that change is a zero-sum game, that a change that benefits someone must naturally result in harm to someone else.

I agree, but it still doesn't make sense to me how people view things this way when it comes to things that really cannot have an impact on their life. How does a gay couple getting married affect anyone other than those getting married? What exactly is it that the anti-marriage equality group is losing in that scenario?

Demosthenes wrote:

I agree, but it still doesn't make sense to me how people view things this way when it comes to things that really cannot have an impact on their life. How does a gay couple getting married affect anyone other than those getting married? What exactly is it that the anti-marriage equality group is losing in that scenario?

It makes them uncomfortable, that's what they're losing. Also, many anti-marriage proponents seem to see the acceptance of homosexuality and gay marriage as an erosion of the influence of religion (especially fundamentalist religion), which is certainly a loss if you're deeply invested in that religion.

There's also just general fear and loss that comes with a changing world.

I posted about it elsewhere, but there is a very real fear among fundamentalists that allowing gays equal rights brings about God's wrath, in civilization-dooming capacities. They are fighting for the survival of America, in their eyes.

I doubt there are many CEOs who are saying to themselves "Nya-ha-ha, I'll take all the money and turn the workers out onto the street to starve!" It's probably more like, "I deserve this money and there's nothing stopping me from taking it, and I'm sure those people will find another job, it's not my problem." Which is why regulation is important.

I once listened to a tech executive give a long talk to a room of experts on technology that would drastically reduce the need for humans in their role. When I got a minute with the guy, I jokingly noted that he'd just told the company's technical brain trust that they'd be out of jobs within a few years. He looked surprised, then noted that they were all smart and would most likely have exit plans, just like he did. And that was the end of his concern.

Naturally, many of them left the company in the next two years, often with a great deal of animus, and have become tenacious competitors, entirely due to their treatment at the hands of the decision makers. In reality, their roles were *changed*, not eliminated, but the company did nothing to try to retain or reassure people. We actually had to hire people to fill those roles once everything stabilized. It was a good company overall, but in this regard, it failed pretty badly.

This isn't quite on topic, but I didn't want to place it in the other seemingly relevant threads or make a new one. I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've really stepped into P&C, and just looking at all the threads gives me a headache. There are a lot of reasons I avoid this section, top one being that I usually gain my knowledge from asking questions and getting answers from my friends that know more than I do.

So to start, my base question is: is there something wrong with me/my perspective? Is there something wrong with being apathetic about big hot button topics, the most recent being this "#1ReasonWhy" thing on Twitter?

Now, for a little explanation. Apathy may not be the best word to go for. In fact, the best comparison I can make is to describe a scene from a film as silly and dumb as Hot Tub Time Machine. John Cusack's nephew, who wasn't even born yet, ends up going back to 1985 with his Uncle and John's two friends. He's spending the entire time trying to get home and deal with the lack of modern technology. In one segment he's at a concert talking to a girl. He asks for her e-mail or facebook, but naturally she has no clue what he means. When he asks "How do I get in touch?" she smiles and wistfully says "You come find me!", clearly excited at such a romantic notion. He, however, merely sighs and says "That sounds...exhausting."

That is the best way to sum up my reaction to the notion of pulling out the soap box and yelling from on high about how certain things are wrong or should be a certain way.

Take gay marriage for example. I cannot get worked up over it. Maybe this is because I really am a bigot, but to me it just seems silly for it to be an issue because it shouldn't be an issue at all. Homosexuals should be allowed to get married. That's it. End of discussion. I've yet to hear an effective argument against it, with the closest being that the tax system is designed for yatta yatta blah blah, but from talking to people that are smarter than me and know more about tax laws it seems clear this is a weak argument. You don't have to be gay to take advantage of the tax system (my mom, for example, knows a woman that married a man joining the army just for the tax benefits). So when people are changing Facebook profile images to rainbow themed buttons or using twitter hashtags to show their support, I just feel like it's a waste of energy. Gay marriage should be legal, and I also believe it inevitably will be. It would just be nice for it to get here sooner. But whenever I see everyone else getting pissed off because, say, North Carolina voted against it, I just can't help but shrug and say "People suck, whaddya gonna do?"

When it comes to the #1 Reason Why campaign, my apathy seems even worse. It's not that I disagree that women are being mistreated across the games industry, be it in trying to get jobs, being a part of gaming tournaments, or just how they are written and represented in games themselves. Yet at the same time, when I hear a lot of these complaints I can't help but feel people are picking symptoms instead of the problem. What's that? You hate being called a fat slut on Xbox Live? You're not alone. Join every minority out there, and even the rest of us white guys. Assholes on the Internet are older than Xbox Live, even. I remember being insulted when trying to play Aliens vs. Predator 2 online, and I've heard horror stories about Counter Strike. Hell, I know a girl that talks about how often she's treated poorly on League of Legends simply because she's a woman, but it seems to me that community as a whole is rotten since I've read comments here that newbies tend to be treated like sh*t.

Don't like how women are represented in games as always being hot? I don't exactly see a lot of male protagonists with my majestically massive gut, either, and I've heard plenty of women fawn over Nolan No-I mean Nathan Drake. Writing in games on a universal level is crap, and I believe once you improve that you'll start getting better characters of all genders and ethnicities. More so, though, this isn't an issue isolated to the games industry. Anyone see the new trailer for Great and Powerful Oz? Notice how many different women are talking about waiting for a man to come save the day? Isn't that unusual for a film based on a movie where a woman manages to journey through a land and make a difference in several people's lives simply by being kind to them and believing they have the potential to be what they desire?

Thing is, I can't get worked up over these things because they just seem like one symptom of a larger problem, and what bugs me the most is I'm not completely sure what that problem is. The most common scapegoat is the Big Bad White Man sitting atop his corporate office plotting new ways to oppress women and minorities (funny, my old man has a similar view of Liberals, only replace corporate office with Ivory Tower education ...place...), but this just seems to avoid asking some of the tough questions. I've noticed even some of my kindest female friends tend to be the most catty and critical of other women. I've discovered it especially at my job which is primarily women and where women are the target demographic (apparently the 30-50 year old woman has a problem with seeing a female show host's arm pits). I've sat there and basically heard my roommates look at Uma Thurman and all say "I'd hit it" and then my roommate's girlfriend starts to pick every little flaw in the woman's face and body structure.

But is this something that is a part of women's nature? Or is it something taught to them? If it is taught to them is it the result of centuries of a society where men have been at the top of the hierarchy? How can we know for sure since we can't just start fresh and observe what happens? You know, the scientific way? And if it is a problem with society, how do you fix a society where everyone's idea of right and wrong is based on personal experience and where personal experience is going to be different from person to person?

See? Exhausting.

It's not that I don't care about these things. It's not that I don't believe women, minorities or homosexuals have a right to protest their mistreatment. I just don't want to point my finger at someone and say "IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT!" when it just seems so much more complex and impossible than that. It is, quite simply, exhausting.

What does that say about me, though? What does it say that I have friends that I know have faced some sh*tty situations in this culture of gaming and geekery and yet can't even light a fire under my ass to do or say something? Does it make me a horrible person that, even though I believe gay marriage should be legal, I'm just as likely to groan at a gay pride parade and walk the other way? Is it bad that I don't view something like that as special, just something that is? It's like ethnicity. I'd rather not think of my friends as being black or hispanic or what have you. I'd just like to think of them as my friends, and most of the time that's how it is. To me, the best stance to have is that these people aren't special because they're different from me, they're normal because they're human and thus are not different from me after all.

Am I making sense? Did I just drop a huge ass rant in a thread where it doesn't belong? I dunno. I just know 2012 has been the Year of the Great Misogyny Debate, or it seems to have been, and not once could I be bothered to read an in-depth article on what is being said or going on because, to me, that it is even an issue is dumb.

I dunno. Maybe I don't even know what question I'm really asking. I just want to know if it's a problem that I just don't want to stand up and fight for the rights of the oppressed (also, side note: it kind of does piss me off to see so many white men taking to Facebook, Twitter and Blogs to do just that. Feels not-genuine to me for some reason, and I don't mean in the "you're just trying to get laid" seeing as, at this point, most of those men that I know are married or have girlfriends).

I just feel like this is one of the reasons I typically avoid P&C type talk. I acknowledge the symptoms, but I don't agree with the central problem. Does this make me an asshole?

For someone so apathetic about all that, that's a pretty long and opinionated post.

I just feel like this is one of the reasons I typically avoid P&C type talk. I acknowledge the symptoms, but I don't agree with the central problem. Does this make me an asshole?

Well yeah, but the world has lots of assholes, remember? The Internet is full of them

Also, just because you haven't really heard about "the great misogyny debate" until 2012 doesn't mean it wasn't a thing before this. Just means it hadn't entered your particular sphere.

Bit of a wall of text incoming: it's something I've had banging around a bit in my skull as a similarly apathetic straight, affluent white male playing life on it's easiest difficulty setting

It's harder for us to get worked up about something if it doesn't directly affect us - it's just human nature. If everyone was entirely objective about which issues to get upset about, essentially every form of discrimination in the USA would barely even register against things like the conflict in Syria, the HIV epidemic in Africa, the living conditions in the slums of Delhi, etc. etc. That's not how people work though (and it's also a bit silly to say "you shouldn't feel bad about x because someone else has it worse"). The reason it's harder for so many SAWMs to get fundamentally excited about things like discrimination is we generally don't have a frame of reference for it - at best, we've seen it happen to other people, which isn't enough to grok it. Your comment about the lack of male characters with guts for example: superficially, it's equivalent that male characters in games bear as much resemblance to the average man as female characters do to the average women, and that attractiveness does impact on our assessment of other people, and that nowadays women comment on male appearance almost as much as men do on women's. From the SAWM point of view, it's very easy to see the two as being pretty comparable. The key thing is, though, this is happening against a background of thousands of years of women's fates being largely in the hands of men that are valuing them almost solely on their appearance, and even now appearance factoring much more into the value of women than it does of men, AND of women being put at risk of anything from unpleasant attention to violence or worse as a direct result of their appearance.

Does all that mean you care about it as much as women do? In a perfect world, you should, but as I said I don't think that's human nature. The important thing, though, is to remember that other people will be viewing things through the lens of their own experience, and so something that seems minor to you can be of huge importance to them. They don't find it exhausting because they have a strong incentive to push through the effort, whereas it's much harder to be motivated by something that is relatively abstract from your perspective. Maybe the fight is futile, but for them it's worth trying. It doesn't have to be for you, though.

The being annoyed by facebook thing is somewhat different, and there are a couple of different things that could be behind it. It generally annoys me as well, since "raising awareness" usually makes my thoughts jump to this. I got quite sarcastic during the Kony 2012 thing since I spend enough time reading international news that I thought that suddenly making a big deal about child soldiers in Africa was roughly equivalent to going around saying "hey guys, I just found out about these things called vitamins that are really good for you!", but I eventually realised that that particular campaign was genuinely making people aware that it was a thing. Again, it comes down to that perspective thing. Of course, some people are probably just doing it in a bandwagon fashion, too.

Finally, issues are complex and it's likewise human nature to break down complicated things to simple things, even if the oversimplification loses all substance. We like us vs. them narratives, absolutes, fairness, the idea of winning, and a whole bunch of other stuff that frequently impedes our ability to approach problems rationally. A consequence of using what are essentially overclocked monkey brains. There are some issues that are genuinely intractable (Israel and Palestine for example), where I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that there's nothing much you or I can do about it, and so it's only human to think it's sad, and to feel sorry for everyone involved, but to also think that it's pointless to tray and do anything about. To reiterate my earlier point, though, it's also human nature that some people will want to try.

TLDR: It's not a problem with you as a person, you're just being human - and so are they.

I'd say that finding it exhausting wouldn't make you an asshole, but telling people that don't find it exhausting that they're wasting their time or are white-knighting just for attention would make you an asshole.

As Sonicator said, it's only human to not be particularly interested in something that doesn't affect you personally, but there's a difference between not being interested enough to do anything and telling others that they shouldn't be either.
If you've not delved into P&C before, you might be new to the concept of white privilege. It's another thing like the misogyny debate that has been around a long time, but has (somewhat) recently been introduced to new spheres. Basically, no one is asking you to start making speeches from soapboxes or get involved, just that you not be so dismissive of them when they do.
Tanglebones posted this in a thread I suggest you read (if you haven't already):

.

So this morning I was all fretting and wondering what I was thinking last night when I posted all this. I've come to regret things I've said while sleepy a lot more than anything I've said while drunk. I find that interesting.

clover wrote:

Also, just because you haven't really heard about "the great misogyny debate" until 2012 doesn't mean it wasn't a thing before this. Just means it hadn't entered your particular sphere.

I should specify that what I meant was it seems to be a much more common hot button topic this year in the realm of video games. I believe it was first raised with the Anita Sarkeesian Kickstarter (is that how you spell her name?), and around the same time was the Hitman trailer with sexy combat nuns, then more recently there's the Fake Geek Girls thing going on and now it's the #1ReasonWhy.

I've been aware of and a part of the debate for a while myself, but it just seems to be a more common topic than ever this year. I'm wondering if this means a big change really will be coming, but somehow I sort of doubt that. I feel like developers may pay attention to what's being said in forums and blogs, but the people funding the games...well, I can't see that as much. They just see metrics, and to them the metrics prove that the middle aged white male is still their primary demographic.

I hope that's not the case and that we get some more creative stuff out there. Just look at The Walking Dead. We have an African American protagonist that doesn't just scream "HEY EVERYONE I'M A BLACK MAN!" like Cole Train does in Gears of War, and Walking Dead has been critically and commercially a success.

Sonicator wrote:

Lots of reassuring stuff

Thanks man.

I do believe that the biggest reason I cannot get so worked up is because I don't feel that same oppression. I think, when it does bother me, is when I'm talking to my Dad. He's pretty damn Right-Wing old fashioned white male, and sometimes the stuff that comes out of his mouth is sexist or racist. But he's not aware that it is. He truly believes that it is and he uses (skewed) personal experience to back it up.

But maybe one of the reasons I find these things so exhausting is because of my own experience trying to speak with him. I've had conversations with my Dad in recent years and yet he still looks at me as a naive and inexperienced child that doesn't understand how the world really works. I've had to just face the fact that no matter what I do or say, he's not going to change his mind. The prospect of trying to change the mind of multiple people, let alone one, thus seems pretty hopeless.

But that's introspective naval gazing.

I do hate the whole "Awareness" thing myself, though. I am aware people out there are poor and hungry. Being aware of it doesn't change the fact that they are poor and hungry, nor does sharing something on Facebook.

Stengah wrote:

I'd say that finding it exhausting wouldn't make you an asshole, but telling people that don't find it exhausting that they're wasting their time or are white-knighting just for attention would make you an asshole...Basically, no one is asking you to start making speeches from soapboxes or get involved, just that you not be so dismissive of them when they do.

Ah, I didn't mean to say that I think others are wasting their time or just white-knighting for attention. I feel that's more an issue with me projecting onto others. I'm not about to go assuming what other people are thinking or feeling when it comes to this stuff.

ccesarano wrote:

I hope that's not the case and that we get some more creative stuff out there. Just look at The Walking Dead. We have an African American protagonist that doesn't just scream "HEY EVERYONE I'M A BLACK MAN!" like Cole Train does in Gears of War, and Walking Dead has been critically and commercially a success.

You must not be caught up with Walking Dead...

Seth wrote:
ccesarano wrote:

I hope that's not the case and that we get some more creative stuff out there. Just look at The Walking Dead. We have an African American protagonist that doesn't just scream "HEY EVERYONE I'M A BLACK MAN!" like Cole Train does in Gears of War, and Walking Dead has been critically and commercially a success.

You must not be caught up with Walking Dead... :)

It could also be I'm oblivious to certain things (wouldn't be surprised), or that I'm more meaning in speech, behavior, dress, body language, etc. There's a joke where Kenny assumes Lee can pick a lock, but I found that to be amusing. I also found it to inform a little bit about Kenny's world view. I'm fine with that kind of thing because it feels genuine to me, while also showing the writers are willing to poke fun at certain ideas and stereotypes themselves. But Lee isn't wearing a sideways hat talking like a stereotypical rapper on MTV.

That's about the only part in all five episodes where race seemed to be something that mattered, as far as I remember. Again, though, could simply have been oblivious.

ccesarano, bear in mind current events and politics is extremely relative. A day is short enough without you seeking to get every last bit of information for that sake.

If you genuinely think something is irrelevant to your life, I am not really sure why you should care. I, personally, find this refreshing given our present climate of anything and everything will bring about the Planet of the Apes.

Ultimately, you have the right to focus and care on the things that you care about. More to the point the NFL still played football the Sunday after the 2012 election. Your pay checks still get cashed, and American Dollars still paid for your groceries.

Most of our concerns are more or less met independent of political or social pressures. If you are a teacher in Ohio, or Wisconsin there were many political issues tied to you and your job. Women were particularly mobilized against many ballot proposals, and candidates who were proven dangers to their interests.

But I will reiterate, if you can escape the furor, I call that a win. I would rather see an informed statement of "I really do not think this concerns my life" over "Obama's tax plan will ruin america and force us to cook our babies for sustenance."

Much as His Majesty the Gorilla stated above, just because you don't care enough about the hot button topic of the day to get worked up doesn't mean you're deffective. Everyone has issues they feel are important to them and issues they simply acknowledge and move on from. Some of my friends could care less about who's elected to what, what laws are passed or what kind of budget deals get hammered out. Now if you take that same guy and start talking about a recent play that his favorite college football team made in the last game he'll get so worked up he may run out into the streets and start randomly shooting at passersby in anger while screaming to the heavens that god should smite the coach with a divine bolt of lightning. What people really, really care about is personal and, to me, manufactured care is worse than apathy.

For me, personally, I acknowledge tons of human rights abuses in other nations and I feel it's a tragedy but I also feel like there's jack-all I can do about it so I just go on with my life focusing on issues I feel are important to me and that I can actually have an effect on. Something coming up I can actually vote on? Great, read up on it and get out there and vote. A state I don't live in tries to pass a law that I view as horrendous? I make a post on here saying "I think they're stupid!" and then I go on with my day. While the dalai lama may say that we each have the capacity for infinite care I tend to find that I can only really care about a few things at a time and everything else I'll just have a half-formed opinion on. Works for me.

Since no one else brought it up here yet:

How does one best go about acquiring a f*ck-buddy?

Atras wrote:

Since no one else brought it up here yet:

How does one best go about acquiring a f*ck-buddy?

Join a local swinger club, be a gentleman.

Tanglebones wrote:
Atras wrote:

Since no one else brought it up here yet:

How does one best go about acquiring a f*ck-buddy?

Join a local swinger club, be a gentleman.

Pretty much. No matter where you meet a potential f*ck-buddy, remember that the fact that you are a single male and have a penis is not unusual and does not automatically make you a valuable commodity, so you will need to demonstrate some level of wit, talent, or other level of interestingness. The gentleman part will go a very long way toward your goal.

Also, paradoxically, don't be too clingy. Peeling a guy off you repeatedly gets old super fast when it's supposed to be a FWB arrangement.

Tanglebones wrote:
Atras wrote:

Since no one else brought it up here yet:

How does one best go about acquiring a f*ck-buddy?

Join a local swinger club, be a gentleman.

I think I forgot a "bimbo", "emotionally damaged" or "sexually abused" in there. Your answer seems too nonplussed.

Atras wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:
Atras wrote:

Since no one else brought it up here yet:

How does one best go about acquiring a f*ck-buddy?

Join a local swinger club, be a gentleman.

I think I forgot a "bimbo", "emotionally damaged" or "sexually abused" in there. Your answer seems too nonplussed.

Oh sorry, we thought you wanted useful advice

clover wrote:
Atras wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:
Atras wrote:

Since no one else brought it up here yet:

How does one best go about acquiring a f*ck-buddy?

Join a local swinger club, be a gentleman.

I think I forgot a "bimbo", "emotionally damaged" or "sexually abused" in there. Your answer seems too nonplussed.

Oh sorry, we thought you wanted useful advice :D

This is arguments; useful advice is down the hall.

Tanglebones wrote:

This is arguments; useful advice is down the hall.

That's a bunch of crap!

You also forgot to say you're looking for the real-life equivalent of a character whose sole purpose for existing is for men to sexually molest and/or exploit.

Stengah wrote:

You also forgot to say you're looking for the real-life equivalent of a character whose sole purpose for existing is for men to sexually molest and/or exploit.

No you must be thinking of something else. F*ck-buddy's are all about consensual and mutual gratification.

Also it's not necessarily a swingers thing.

Stengah wrote:

You also forgot to say you're looking for the real-life equivalent of a character whose sole purpose for existing is for men to sexually molest and/or exploit.

I don't think he mentioned role play.

I think some context might be missing for a few people.

Atras wrote:

Since no one else brought it up here yet:

How does one best go about acquiring a f*ck-buddy?

Apparently, hang around women with too much going on in their lives for a boyfriend:

The women wanted to study or hang out with friends or just be “100 percent selfish,” as one said. “I have the rest of my life to devote to a husband or kids or my job.” Some even purposely had what one might think of as fake boyfriends, whom they considered sub–marriage quality, and weren’t genuinely attached to. “He fits my needs now, because I don’t want to get married now,” one said. “I don’t want anyone else to influence what I do after I graduate.”

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor...

Tanglebones wrote:
Atras wrote:

Since no one else brought it up here yet:

How does one best go about acquiring a f*ck-buddy?

Join a local swinger club, be a gentleman.

Yes and no. Single guys looking to get laid are a-dime-a-dozen in the swing community, to the extent that some swing clubs have some variant of "no single guys unless guested in by a member in good standing" rules.

SixteenBlue wrote:

I think some context might be missing for a few people.

Seems that way.

Stengah wrote:
SixteenBlue wrote:

I think some context might be missing for a few people.

Seems that way.

For context just check the regular ol Questions You Want Answered thread in EBG where someone asked how to find a bimbo and another person gave advice on how to do just that and then linked being a "bimbo" to a history of daddy issues or sexual abuse. It kinda' all went down hill from there. EBG just doesn't have the tools that P&C does to address that sort of C.

Does 8.5 of the CoC apply to 7? Does 7 apply when it involves allegations about 1 & 2?