Torchlight 2 Catch-All

liquid wrote:

30+ minutes of gameplay http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDDfV...

Thanks, liquid.

Copingsaw wrote:

Torchlight was out in Nov 09 after a blisteringly fast development ... I think it was only a year. The MMO was supposed to follow 18-months later. Then they announced that Torchlight 2 would follow instead a year after the original. If I recall, it was supposed to be a bridge before the MMO so they wouldn't have to wait so long for another revenue stream. Then they dropped the release of T2 until July of this year. July is almost here and there hasn't even been a whisper about this game being ready for prime time. I did not expect to see this after how efficient they were with the first game. Not sure if this will mean a more polished game or they are having problems with development.

First off, part of the reason Torchlight was released so fast was because of the work the team had done previously. In a sense you could say Torchlight took 2+ years to develop based on the team's experience. In a sense ...

Coping, I'm not sure what your point is. Do you want them to give you more sooner? Sure, I'm being somewhat flippant, but a couple things happened: 1) they put Torchlight out on console; and 2) they made Torchlight 2 a stepping stone to the mmo (which was not in the original business plan). The console version pushed things back and then the fact they went with an intermediary game before the mmo changed the release schedule (who made this decision, I don't know). They were at E3 with hands on with Torchlight 2, it's not vaporware. Having been a gamer for years and years (not trying to undermine your view), I understand that mp adds a whole new layer of problems to development. So they've taken lessons learned from the console version and applied it to Torchlight 2. Then lessons learned about Torchlight 2 will be applied to the MMO version. Yeah things aren't shaking out quite how they planned, but as a business model they're still moving forward and I'm glad for that.

The fact we may actually see a Torchlight MMO is a good thing. The fact it got pushed back in lieu of having Torchlight 2 is just a natural bump in the road, business-wise. They're not Blizzard or Nintendo, they have to keep a revenue source coming in from somewhere. I'd rather they put out Torchlight 1 & 2 in a two+ year span than Torchlight and the Torchlight MMO in a 3+ year span. Make sense? I don't think they're doing this to screw the gamer in any way, they're doing it to deliver a better product overall based on the realities of the world they develop in.

garion333 wrote:

1) they put Torchlight out on console

I think this is the primary reason it's been delayed.

I also don't think they were necessarily efficient in their development of Torchlight 1. They were able to make it so fast because, as Garion mentioned, they have a lot of experience developing games like this and, more importantly, they seriously limited the scope of the game. They went with relatively simple graphics (the game can run on a metbook) and an extremely simple game design. The game resembles Diablo 1 more than Diablo 2 was almost 10 years old at the time.

garion333 wrote:

I'd rather they put out Torchlight 1 & 2 in a two+ year span than Torchlight and the Torchlight MMO in a 3+ year span. Make sense? I don't think they're doing this to screw the gamer in any way, they're doing it to deliver a better product overall based on the realities of the world they develop in.

I agree with and endorse this point of view.

I'm so, so pumped for Torchlight 2. Runic is one of the studios that seems to have done everything right so far, and really has the customer in mind. Mod support, game support, tech support - Runic is up one of my top three or four studios that gets in insta-buy from me when they release their next game. I like the cut of their jib and I like how they do business.

More pets, more classes, multiplayer, day/night cycle, overland, more cities, hub cities! I... I have to go now.

Runic has a lot of goodwill from me but to me the alchemist was extremely poorly designed. Fun at first, but spells scale rather poorly without heavy modding, summons get regularly stuck on map terrain, and minion AI is just really frustrating at times

I also emailed them about the AI issues as well as crashing issues on my comp and they took something like 6 months to respond. I posted the email in the TL1 thread a few months ago

mooosicle wrote:

Runic has a lot of goodwill from me but to me the alchemist was extremely poorly designed. Fun at first, but spells scale rather poorly without heavy modding, summons get regularly stuck on map terrain, and minion AI is just really frustrating at times

I also emailed them about the AI issues as well as crashing issues on my comp and they took something like 6 months to respond. I posted the email in the TL1 thread a few months ago

Well, I can't speak to the email issue, but Runic has said many times that the end game or later stages were completely unbalanced and it was due to the short dev time. They say that will no longer be an issue.

garion333 wrote:

Coping, I'm not sure what your point is. Do you want them to give you more sooner?

No, I'm in no hurry for this game. My point is simply that with their first release Runic was focused, disciplined and timely. Now I'm not so sure. It could be that they now have the resources to spit and polish. It could be that they have lost some of their focus.

Hmmmm, I'm sure any game with a flaw could have used some more time or could have done things differently, but on the other hand it depends whether they truly thought it was good enough, and that they needed to ship it so the game gets seen through fresh eyes. Nothing is ever perfect.

Copingsaw wrote:
garion333 wrote:

Coping, I'm not sure what your point is. Do you want them to give you more sooner?

No, I'm in no hurry for this game. My point is simply that with their first release Runic was focused, disciplined and timely. Now I'm not so sure. It could be that they now have the resources to spit and polish. It could be that they have lost some of their focus.

Well, they've paired up with Perfect World and might have more funding to polish it up (along with the money from the original game). Torchlight 1 was definitely a aberration in terms of development, but as I said earlier ... it was also imperfect. Certain abilities were overpowered. Dunno. This is a bigger game overall, I doubt runic is suffering from bloat though, they're still a small team as far as I can tell.

Nice to see they brought back the little pigmy blow dart shooters that everyone loved from act 3 =(

I hope this comes out sooner rather than later. We really need something to bridge the gap between now and d3, gw2 and the other million titles that are being dumptrucked on us this fall.

fangblackbone wrote:

Nice to see they brought back the little pigmy blow dart shooters that everyone loved from act 3 =(

F*ck those guys.

Just in case anyone reading this thread doesn't have it, Torchlight 1 is $2.99 as a daily deal in the Steam Summer Sale. Tell your friends!

You know what, I've been playing a lot of Torchlight 1 in anticipation of this, and I have to say I'm a bit cautious about how Torchlight 2 will turn out now. I didn't play for 1 year +, and came back, and it was evident that they really bothered to fix any of the problems before my hiatus.

-Late game item scaling,
-Minion AI is still dumb as bricks (Playing summoner on the Lava levels is nearly unbearable, you will be fighting with 1/3 of your minions most of the time, rest are pathfinding-stuck)
-dark zealot lightning skill that was probably mistakenly gigantically buffed in the 1.15 patch, causing a ton of one shot kills on all level
-Alchemist magic scale poorly in the Shadow Vault levels
-tons of useless character and learned spells (Try using poison cloud, retribution, magic sword, damage traps, a bunch of attack skills etc at max level)
-nonsensical spell durations (30 seconds duration spells)
-Really really messy stat formulas. The forums still haven't figured out how exactly damage is calculated, nor is any of it clarified by a dev. The character screen stuff is not correct by the way. For a heavy loot game, it doesn't really make sense to not explain how loot stats really work.

If you don't like it, you basically have to play "game balancer" yourself, trying to find what mods you think might fix it, and deal with different modder's interpretation of how to buff whatever aspect.

While I most likely will pick TL2 and have fun with it (and continue playing TL1), it's like playing pre-patch Fallout 3 or Borderlands. It has so much potential but so many things holding it back. I just don't think Runic is going to stick around to smooth out the details on TL2. After the first few months of support, they'll move on to focus on TL MMO, just like they did with the TL1 dev cycle. Right now, they're charging "indie prices" for their games, so I'd like to cut them some slack, but in my mind, they don't have anywhere near the polishing drive of a good AAA studio, like the most obvious example Blizzard.

Well, they are a small team and can't really do too many things at once and they've said that they have thought a lot more and put a lot more work into those issues for TL2. I'm willing to bet that those guys aren't bullsh*tting us around.

liquid wrote:

Well, they are a small team and can't really do too many things at once and they've said that they have thought a lot more and put a lot more work into those issues for TL2. I'm willing to bet that those guys aren't bullsh*tting us around.

But that being said, I expect once TL2 comes out, 90% of their development will shift focus to the MMO (because they are a small team). I just hope it does a good job with multiplayer.

mooosicle wrote:

stuff

Should go without saying at this point, but there are a plethora of mods that address lots of things in TL 1. Some mods even add totally new classes to the game.

And comparing Runic to Blizzard in any way is like comparing a toll booth to a skyscraper.

I expect TL2 will cost around $30 when released. I'll probably pre-order it like I did with TL1 (if it's 10% off like before). Since you don't seem to be as confident in Runic, if you're patient, I'm sure it will be available for $15 or less during a Steam sale, either this winter or surely by next summer's sale.

mooosicle wrote:

You know what, I've been playing a lot of Torchlight 1 in anticipation of this, and I have to say I'm a bit cautious about how Torchlight 2 will turn out now. I didn't play for 1 year +, and came back, and it was evident that they really bothered to fix any of the problems before my hiatus.

Your issues with Torchlight are the same issues I had. The game simply was not balanced and, as a result, was a one play-through game. I am hoping they fix this with T2. I saw an interview with Max Schaeffer and he specifically stated that they are taking the time to work on balance issues with the new game. We'll see.

Copingsaw wrote:
mooosicle wrote:

You know what, I've been playing a lot of Torchlight 1 in anticipation of this, and I have to say I'm a bit cautious about how Torchlight 2 will turn out now. I didn't play for 1 year +, and came back, and it was evident that they really bothered to fix any of the problems before my hiatus.

Your issues with Torchlight are the same issues I had. The game simply was not balanced and, as a result, was a one play-through game. I am hoping they fix this with T2. I saw an interview with Max Schaeffer and he specifically stated that they are taking the time to work on balance issues with the new game. We'll see.

I think you're slightly misquoting him. I believe he's been saying that they didn't have the time to properly balance the end-game in the first game and with Torchlight 2 they have that time.

You know, I made the post right after dying a bunch of times in Torchlight due to AI failure, so it was typed with no small degree of frustration. It came out harsher than intended. I still have fun with the game, but it's really hard to play after level 50 or so without installing a ton of game-changing mods.

Currently I run a ton of convenience mods, but none of the popular mods that change fundamental things like prevent enchant failure/force unique drops only, buff pets by a exponential amount, a ton of arbitrarily ridiculous buffs to skills (X skill does too little damage? multiple it by 3!), etc.

I'm just hoping they stick around long enough in TL2 to smooth out the inevitable issues that occur with any new game release. And hopefully they nerf exploding shot for coop play. It's like seventeen times stronger than any other attack.

mooosicle wrote:

I'm just hoping they stick around long enough in TL2 to smooth out the inevitable issues that occur with any new game release. And hopefully they nerf exploding shot for coop play. It's like seventeen times stronger than any other attack.

All the classes in 2 are going to be different, so it's not a given that there will be an exploding shot type ability. I mean there probably will be something like it, but I think they realize it needed balancing.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...

It's going to be in the Fall. It's definitely, 100 per cent, for sure this year and not the Winter with any luck. It's coming along really well. We've hit our internal July milestones, so we should be on track for a Fall release.

PC first, then mac.

Also TL2 is currently too big for XBLA, and would need some redesigning to happen there. Co-op player count hasn't been pinned down, but 4-8, although mods can go up to 1000.

Despite Facebook says, no one has 1000 friends.

Runic is really hurting themselves with their lack of communication. It's now August 4th. This is a game which was originally planned to release in June, and the last news post on their main site is dated May 20th. On top of that, the 800 pound gorilla they'll be competing with has started pushing out lots of information and talking about beta. I don't know who is in charge of marketing or PR over there, but maybe they ought to look at someone else for the job. It's time to put out a press release and solidify a release date, before too many people who were planning to get this game to hold them over until Diablo 3 decide to just give this one a pass.

On a side note, have they said whether you'll be able to play with an Xbox controller on the PC? I absolutely loved their control implementation on the XBLA version of Torchlight.

But Blizzard recommended Torchlight, that's plenty of publicity.

I'm looking forward to most of the upcoming arpgs, including this one. I was really hoping this was going to release right away as there are so many games coming out in the fall that I want already and my gaming budget has gotten much smaller.

Mr Crinkle wrote:

Runic is really hurting themselves with their lack of communication. It's now August 4th. This is a game which was originally planned to release in June, and the last news post on their main site is dated May 20th. On top of that, the 800 pound gorilla they'll be competing with has started pushing out lots of information and talking about beta. I don't know who is in charge of marketing or PR over there, but maybe they ought to look at someone else for the job.

Very true. They've done a shoddy job on the media front as well. Besides the PC Gamer reveal, and maybe one or two random convention videos, I've haven't seen hardly anything of the game, and I consider myself one of the minority that keeps up with game news.

Mr Crinkle wrote:

Runic is really hurting themselves with their lack of communication. It's now August 4th. This is a game which was originally planned to release in June, and the last news post on their main site is dated May 20th. On top of that, the 800 pound gorilla they'll be competing with has started pushing out lots of information and talking about beta. I don't know who is in charge of marketing or PR over there, but maybe they ought to look at someone else for the job. It's time to put out a press release and solidify a release date, before too many people who were planning to get this game to hold them over until Diablo 3 decide to just give this one a pass.

I think they've just started pushing out info. (the link in the tweet leads to their front page that oddly hasn't been updated, but most likely they're talking about this).

Mr Crinkle wrote:

Runic is really hurting themselves with their lack of communication.

What exactly are they meant to talk about?

"Not done yet"
"Still not done yet"
"Not exactly sure how long it'll take to do"
"Renamed a class"

It's not as though anyone has paid for it already, and they're contractually obliged to deliver it in a certain timescale.

Scratched wrote:
Mr Crinkle wrote:

Runic is really hurting themselves with their lack of communication.

What exactly are they meant to talk about?

"Not done yet"
"Still not done yet"
"Not exactly sure how long it'll take to do"
"Renamed a class"

It's not as though anyone has paid for it already, and they're contractually obliged to deliver it in a certain timescale.

Classic damned if you do damned if you don't.

Too much communication = Hype
Too little communication = Pissing off customers.

Scratched wrote:
Mr Crinkle wrote:

Runic is really hurting themselves with their lack of communication.

What exactly are they meant to talk about?

"Not done yet"
"Still not done yet"
"Not exactly sure how long it'll take to do"
"Renamed a class"

It's not as though anyone has paid for it already, and they're contractually obliged to deliver it in a certain timescale.

I was just about to post something similar - I'm not sure who they're how they're hurting themselves, or who they're putting off by not pumping out a stream of marketing material. Not me. I know I will still buy it and it will likely be out before Diablo III!

TheGameguru wrote:

Classic damned if you do damned if you don't.

Too much communication = Hype
Too little communication = Pissing off customers.

Well, sure, that's why it's a paying job. Gotta find that correct amount in the middle :).

I don't work in that field, but I can say that when you were originally supposed to release in Q2, and it's now mid Q3, and your main competitor is grabbing headlines left and right, and the last update on the front page of your website is from May...that's in the "too little" area.