The Elder Scrolls Online Catch-All

Yeah I'm not so sure SWTOR did "gangbusters" with profit. If that were true they wouldn't have laid off 2/3rds of their staff and I don't think they'd have lost all the top-level designers that they lost.

Elder Scrolls Online looks more of the same to me. The presentation in that video with the developers looking off-camera looks exactly the same as all the SWTOR videos as well. After SWTOR I need something with innovation.

cheeba wrote:

Yeah I'm not so sure SWTOR did "gangbusters" with profit. If that were true they wouldn't have laid off 2/3rds of their staff and I don't think they'd have lost all the top-level designers that they lost.

Elder Scrolls Online looks more of the same to me. The presentation in that video with the developers looking off-camera looks exactly the same as all the SWTOR videos as well. After SWTOR I need something with innovation.

In the earnings call before it launched they stated that anything north of 1 million was very profitable. They sold 2million. Doing double of what you were expecting is generally called successful. They didnt drop below 1 million subs until July or so which is around the time when they announced ftp.

ranalin wrote:
cheeba wrote:

Yeah I'm not so sure SWTOR did "gangbusters" with profit. If that were true they wouldn't have laid off 2/3rds of their staff and I don't think they'd have lost all the top-level designers that they lost.

Elder Scrolls Online looks more of the same to me. The presentation in that video with the developers looking off-camera looks exactly the same as all the SWTOR videos as well. After SWTOR I need something with innovation.

In the earnings call before it launched they stated that anything north of 1 million was very profitable. They sold 2million. Doing double of what you were expecting is generally called successful. They didnt drop below 1 million subs until July or so which is around the time when they announced ftp.

Right, but an MMO isn't a one time expense in production, or even just keeping some matchmaking/game servers up for something like Battlefield.

edit: To expand on that, what do you hear Blizzard gloating about more, the number of boxes they've sold total, or the number of subscribers periodically. I'm sure the total number of people who've ever bought the base WoW game or an expansion is a whole load higher than 10m, but one box is only worth about 2 or 3 months subscription. There's a reason people made the joke about looking at Blizzard's HQ on google maps and seeing dump trucks full of cash lining up.

Scratched wrote:

Right, but an MMO isn't a one time expense in production, or even just keeping some matchmaking/game servers up for something like Battlefield.

Old Republic has all that voice acting though. It doesn't make running the servers cheaper, but the extra up-front cost makes the curve look more like a traditional game's. If box sales paid for that then they're in decent shape.

cheeba wrote:

Yeah I'm not so sure SWTOR did "gangbusters" with profit. If that were true they wouldn't have laid off 2/3rds of their staff and I don't think they'd have lost all the top-level designers that they lost.

Elder Scrolls Online looks more of the same to me. The presentation in that video with the developers looking off-camera looks exactly the same as all the SWTOR videos as well. After SWTOR I need something with innovation.

I'm in the same boat on this. TOR cut a ton very early on in the game's release cycle; at this point, it hasn't been out for a year quite yet, has already cut a huge amount of staff, lost a ton off the top, and despite strong initial box sales, doesn't seem to have done nearly as well as one would have expected; massive server consolidation is a key indicator of that.

Elder Scrolls definitely looks like it's going down that same path. The only question I have is one of world structure; is it going to be vast and open, in the same vein as WoW, or will it be zoned out and instance similarly to WAR? Because if it's the latter, that's another nail in the coffin in my mind. In fact, overall, the game reminds me far more of WAR than it does TOR.

Scratched wrote:
ranalin wrote:
cheeba wrote:

Yeah I'm not so sure SWTOR did "gangbusters" with profit. If that were true they wouldn't have laid off 2/3rds of their staff and I don't think they'd have lost all the top-level designers that they lost.

Elder Scrolls Online looks more of the same to me. The presentation in that video with the developers looking off-camera looks exactly the same as all the SWTOR videos as well. After SWTOR I need something with innovation.

In the earnings call before it launched they stated that anything north of 1 million was very profitable. They sold 2million. Doing double of what you were expecting is generally called successful. They didnt drop below 1 million subs until July or so which is around the time when they announced ftp.

Right, but an MMO isn't a one time expense in production, or even just keeping some matchmaking/game servers up for something like Battlefield.

edit: To expand on that, what do you hear Blizzard gloating about more, the number of boxes they've sold total, or the number of subscribers periodically. I'm sure the total number of people who've ever bought the base WoW game or an expansion is a whole load higher than 10m, but one box is only worth about 2 or 3 months subscription. There's a reason people made the joke about looking at Blizzard's HQ on google maps and seeing dump trucks full of cash lining up.

Well aware of that, and we're seeing the results of them (SWTOR and other games) failing on being able to continue to make a profit.

Which brings us all the way back around to one of my points that these companies are thinking more and more like companies. They're still seeing the box sales/sub model still making them money up to a point. They're going to continue on that path.

New games like ESO have to be able to plan out and finish a solid end game that doesnt bore their users with the same things they can already get in other games.

AnimeJ wrote:
cheeba wrote:

Yeah I'm not so sure SWTOR did "gangbusters" with profit. If that were true they wouldn't have laid off 2/3rds of their staff and I don't think they'd have lost all the top-level designers that they lost.

Elder Scrolls Online looks more of the same to me. The presentation in that video with the developers looking off-camera looks exactly the same as all the SWTOR videos as well. After SWTOR I need something with innovation.

I'm in the same boat on this. TOR cut a ton very early on in the game's release cycle; at this point, it hasn't been out for a year quite yet, has already cut a huge amount of staff, lost a ton off the top, and despite strong initial box sales, doesn't seem to have done nearly as well as one would have expected; massive server consolidation is a key indicator of that.

Elder Scrolls definitely looks like it's going down that same path
. The only question I have is one of world structure; is it going to be vast and open, in the same vein as WoW, or will it be zoned out and instance similarly to WAR? Because if it's the latter, that's another nail in the coffin in my mind. In fact, overall, the game reminds me far more of WAR than it does TOR.

How can anyone make this call yet? There's not enough information yet. We have a teaser reel and people are making game mechanic and play style judgements based on the angles people are facing the camera? Pure silliness.

Perhaps silly to say like it's a certainty, but I don't think it's being too cynical to assume 'the MMO default' until they show otherwise.

ranalin wrote:

How can anyone make this call yet? There's not enough information yet. We have a teaser reel and people are making game mechanic and play style judgements based on the angles people are facing the camera? Pure silliness.

We have a 9:30 teaser reel that showed NOTHING new or innovative in the least. When they show they have something that hasn't been done before, or if they show me how they're doing something better than what's been done, then I might start believing it's not MOTS.

IMAGE(http://i.qkme.me/35iyc0.jpg)

Scratched wrote:

Perhaps silly to say like it's a certainty, but I don't think it's being too cynical to assume 'the MMO default' until they show otherwise.

cheeba wrote:
ranalin wrote:

How can anyone make this call yet? There's not enough information yet. We have a teaser reel and people are making game mechanic and play style judgements based on the angles people are facing the camera? Pure silliness.

We have a 9:30 teaser reel that showed NOTHING new or innovative in the least. When they show they have something that hasn't been done before, or if they show me how they're doing something better than what's been done, then I might start believing it's not MOTS.

Well i'm sorry, this is a MMO, it's going to look, sound, and feel like a MMO. It has to walk and quack like a duck to be a duck so of course it's 'the MMO default'.

They already mentioned their combat and the server layout and while they're not new they're not that common either. Plus for this title they have to make sure that the ES crowd doesnt run away. The innovative bits will be in the details, not the high level stuff we have now. That's where you find out if a MMO has a chance to make it or not.

Yeah, from the the info they've released and the demos they've given so far it sounds as though ESO is going to be more in the vein of Secret World and Guild Wars 2 rather than the more traditional WoW/EQ model.

It has got active blocking so that is something different than either WoW/EQ or TSW/GW2. Also the ability to wear any armor or weapon on any class is different. (though I hope they are looking out for the proven flaws with this where people are having to run around with 6 gear sets for each of the roles they want to fill on a moments notice.)

I will play it however it looks to turn out because there is something tangible about playing in lieu of watching the gameplay vids and likewise there are games that play like crap that look good in vids. (actually there are a lot of those)

ranalin wrote:
Scratched wrote:

Perhaps silly to say like it's a certainty, but I don't think it's being too cynical to assume 'the MMO default' until they show otherwise.

cheeba wrote:
ranalin wrote:

How can anyone make this call yet? There's not enough information yet. We have a teaser reel and people are making game mechanic and play style judgements based on the angles people are facing the camera? Pure silliness.

We have a 9:30 teaser reel that showed NOTHING new or innovative in the least. When they show they have something that hasn't been done before, or if they show me how they're doing something better than what's been done, then I might start believing it's not MOTS.

Well i'm sorry, this is a MMO, it's going to look, sound, and feel like a MMO. It has to walk and quack like a duck to be a duck so of course it's 'the MMO default'.

They already mentioned their combat and the server layout and while they're not new they're not that common either. Plus for this title they have to make sure that the ES crowd doesnt run away. The innovative bits will be in the details, not the high level stuff we have now. That's where you find out if a MMO has a chance to make it or not.

That right there is the problem. The EQ/WoW MMO model is played out. I have a feeling they're going to try to make this a subscription based game and if they do, it will be a failure. I don't think the MMO hasn't grown since WoW peaked and now each new MMO is taking each other. There is a core group of MMO players that pick up each one, play for a month and then move on to the next. I don't see anything that makes me think this game is that different (on a fundamental level) than the rest of the MMOs out there. I don't think the ES brand really lent itself to a MMO and I feel back for the guys making it (Steve Escalante was very kind to me when I worked with him) but this is not going to turn out well. They need to be building something that doesn't play like what the other fantasy MMOs play like and they are not doing that.

Their big hope is to have that game be F2P from day one with a premium subscription on top of that. If they don't....well I hope the game does well for the employees sake.

Ulairi wrote:

I don't see anything that makes me think this game is that different (on a fundamental level) than the rest of the MMOs out there. I don't think the ES brand really lent itself to a MMO and I feel back for the guys making it (Steve Escalante was very kind to me when I worked with him) but this is not going to turn out well. They need to be building something that doesn't play like what the other fantasy MMOs play like and they are not doing that.

Except that, according to all the info out there right now, ESO does appear to play significantly different than the standard fantasy MMO. Recent MMO's are moving away from the standard "stand still and unload the same half dozen skills over and over" model that WoW/EQ popularized in favor of more action oriented combat and greater skill customization, and ESO appears as though it's continuing with that evolution. Whether they actually succeed in creating a good system (such as GW2) or not (Tera) is yet to be seen, but claiming that it appears to be just "more of the same" is baffling given what they've revealed of the game so far.

If anything I'm FAR more incredulous that they, as a new studio, will be able to successfully pull off some of the claims they are making about server functionality, instancing and dynamic events.

I'm with ranalin on this one, the sort of innovation you're going to see in an MMO isn't going to be shown in trailers and teaser reels. I have my doubts about ESO as well, but assuming it's going to fail based on those short snippets alone is well premature.

I'm skeptical as well... and I'm trying not to sound like a cheerleader in this thread but I'm severely annoyed by how common it is becoming to yell "LOL FAIL" whenever a new MMO is introduced, before anyone has actually played the game.

ruhk wrote:

I'm skeptical as well... and I'm trying not to sound like a cheerleader in this thread but I'm severely annoyed by how common it is becoming to yell "LOL FAIL" whenever a new MMO is introduced, before anyone has actually played the game. :?

Or any game really, people are inferring way too much from trailers these days, even the 9 minute teaser reel was just a trailer gone large. They're advertisements, they're not there to provide information, they're there to make the lizard part of your brain decide it wants to buy stuff.

Ulairi wrote:
ranalin wrote:
Scratched wrote:

Perhaps silly to say like it's a certainty, but I don't think it's being too cynical to assume 'the MMO default' until they show otherwise.

cheeba wrote:
ranalin wrote:

How can anyone make this call yet? There's not enough information yet. We have a teaser reel and people are making game mechanic and play style judgements based on the angles people are facing the camera? Pure silliness.

We have a 9:30 teaser reel that showed NOTHING new or innovative in the least. When they show they have something that hasn't been done before, or if they show me how they're doing something better than what's been done, then I might start believing it's not MOTS.

Well i'm sorry, this is a MMO, it's going to look, sound, and feel like a MMO. It has to walk and quack like a duck to be a duck so of course it's 'the MMO default'.

They already mentioned their combat and the server layout and while they're not new they're not that common either. Plus for this title they have to make sure that the ES crowd doesnt run away. The innovative bits will be in the details, not the high level stuff we have now. That's where you find out if a MMO has a chance to make it or not.

That right there is the problem. The EQ/WoW MMO model is played out.

Nope the problem is assuming that when the title MMO is used that it involves the EQ/WoW model.

Redwing wrote:
ruhk wrote:

I'm skeptical as well... and I'm trying not to sound like a cheerleader in this thread but I'm severely annoyed by how common it is becoming to yell "LOL FAIL" whenever a new MMO is introduced, before anyone has actually played the game. :?

Or any game really, people are inferring way too much from trailers these days, even the 9 minute teaser reel was just a trailer gone large. They're advertisements, they're not there to provide information, they're there to make the lizard part of your brain decide it wants to buy stuff.

I both agree and disagree with you two on this. Yes, ads are there to make us want to buy things. And yes, people definitely look at new games, and expect failure. But that said, especially in this genre, there are a *lot* of companies/publishers/devs trying to cash out on an MMO, and not every historically single player franchise needs or should want to make that jump. So to me, in a lot of these cases, the "it's gonna bomb" mentality is really rooted in the lackluster showing of games who overpromised and under-delivered(WAR, AOC) or tried too hard to be something that it really wasn't cut out for(TOR). Throw that on the backdrop of the 10 million sub gorilla, and it's very easy to be cynical about new properties.

AnimeJ wrote:

I both agree and disagree with you two on this. Yes, ads are there to make us want to buy things. And yes, people definitely look at new games, and expect failure. But that said, especially in this genre, there are a *lot* of companies/publishers/devs trying to cash out on an MMO, and not every historically single player franchise needs or should want to make that jump. So to me, in a lot of these cases, the "it's gonna bomb" mentality is really rooted in the lackluster showing of games who overpromised and under-delivered(WAR, AOC) or tried too hard to be something that it really wasn't cut out for(TOR). Throw that on the backdrop of the 10 million sub gorilla, and it's very easy to be cynical about new properties.

Oh for sure, and I mostly agree with this. I just think people are expecting way too much from trailers, and to be a filthy out-of-context paraphraser aimed at no one in particular, "I think this is gonna suck" based on speculation alone doesn't really add much to the conversation.

video on misconceptions...

Well apart from an hour or two of free SWTOR im a complete MMO newbie so im keen to give this a go.

IF GWJ made a guild/casual group wha't's the feeling on which alliance to join ?

http://tamrielfoundry.com/player-fac...
(bottom right- you can see the rough early favourite is the Nord faction)

I guess it comes down to what race you enjoyed when playing TES games, but also you have to take into account the fact that the PvE areas will be locked into your regions, ie if you are sick of mountains then you probably won't want to join the Ebonheart pact.

Personally im torn between Daggerfall and Aldmeri. i love playing as an archer in Skyrim but hated the look of the TES elves so I preferred a Breton or Redguard archer.
I guess we need more info on racial abilities before we can make an informed choice. IF the elves dont look ugly as sin Im inclined to go Bosmer, if they do then redguard or breton.

Im going to say that i think the Ebonheart will be the biggest faction - all the newer/younger Skyrim lovers-Nords and Morrowind nostalgia Dunmer types
They will hate the Aldmeri dominion who will be probably the Elven MMO types allied with Skyrim Khajit lovers (plushies:)
So that leaves the small number of Orcheads, and bretons- people who want to be magicians but dont want to be elves and redguards

whats everyone opinion so far ?

Brownypoints wrote:

whats everyone opinion so far ?

My go-to character has always been the Breton (preferrably Atronach born, for kicks). That's why I've been eyeing the Covenant, but I'll probably just follow suit and join what other goodjers join.

As for the elves in Skyrim... I'd have to disagree with you. Sure, they don't look pretty by our standards, but they look alien, and foreign. And that's what I liked in Skyrim, they weren't just pretty humans with pointy ears.

Anyone hear anything about the business model? I'm hoping for a one time thing like Guild Wars... Not a fan of subscriptions, myself...

Yeah,you're right, I agree that having non pretty elves is a plus for TES, I just didnt want to be one myself.
No word on the business model as far as i know, pretty sure everyone around here agrees that a monthly subscription base model will be a mistake.
Ok I put my vote down on the Covenant too.

I'll inevitably give this a shot, and will go the Orc or Breton route when I do.

As per usual, I will probably be the only person I know playing an argonian. If I play, I mean.

I want my Kat Burglar to come alive in TESO.
Kitteh will LIVE!

Bosmer, as per usual. Hopefully they find a way of working in the Wood Elves' ritual cannibalism.

No one will be safe!

Cannot wait to be able to weigh in on this.