Doctor Who *Spoilers Abound! We've lost Containment*

Booth wrote:

Finally got around to watching the 5th episode, been busy.

I didn't mind it except for the capitalism hate, which was central to the story so kind of a bummer. I didn't mind any thing else and thought it was a cool and fairly original ending just don't care for the blame to be placed on capitalism. More like greed and corruption.

Next episode looks like one I could really like, minus the...

Spoiler:

...Missy being in it bit. Still keeping hope she is not the one in the vault.

If there's a time in the distant future where capitalism (or any other economic construct based on scarcity of resources) no longer applies to humanity, I think we should discard it. This episode showed that moment. *shrug*

If the episode makes us look at ourselves and wonder if there are aspects of society where capitalism need not apply, that's not such a bad thing either. That's not "capitalism hate". It's recognizing where capitalism may not be the right tool for the job. Hopefully we're not so stupid as to consider it a cure-all system for everything to the point where human beings only have value commensurate with their participation in it (like in the episode). Then again, we've been that stupid before.

Is it possible for a companion to

Spoiler:

save the day without almost getting killed in the process?

Been busy at work but finally watched the latest episode. It was alright, enjoyable.

I feel like this season has been a lot of just standard Who stories for me though. Not necessarily a bad thing but I'd like some 10/10 episodes thrown in there.

Rat Boy wrote:

Is it possible for a companion to

Spoiler:

save the day without almost getting killed in the process?

I missed the explanation as to why she

Spoiler:

wasn't killed.

Spoiler:

My reading was that Bill's ability to manifest a mental image of her Mum enabled her to fight off the monks' rewriting. Perhaps Bill's lynchpin position in the monks' mind control thing gave her a leg up or something. It's always been my least favourite way of the Doctor winning an episode, and I disliked it when Martha did it to The Master, and Clara's leaf did it to that planet (which was an amazingly designed and filmed episode, but whose story fizzled out), and I disliked it here. Maybe kids liked it better, and the somewhat soppy aesop works a bit better for them.

Spoiler:

I really wish they would do without the teary-eyed goodbyes when it's midseason and we know damn well neither the Doctor nor the Companion are in any real danger. Save it for the Christmas special!

Also ... Missy crying about remembering all the people she killed? It just doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel earned. Like the whole dramatic episode with Davros last season - it's a waste to use the character this way when we know she'll just turn around and stab the Doc in the back as soon as she gets the chance.

One of the many mistakes that Moffet makes is that he thinks Dr Who is fantasy rather than Sci Fi. I've seen too many episodes where plot points are resolved illogically or through "the power of love". It's lazy writing.

Spoiler:

What I gathered from the episode is that the "memory" that Bill made in her head about her mother
was something that the Monks couldn't observe. Therefore that memory was untainted by the Monks.
By focusing on only it, and projecting it to everyone through the pyramid room thingy, Bill was able to break the connection of all her other thoughts and memories that were tainted by the Monks and that the Monks were using to control the world.

That's why Bill didn't have to die. She found another way to break from the power of the Monks.

Alz wrote:
Spoiler:

Also ... Missy crying about remembering all the people she killed? It just doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel earned. Like the whole dramatic episode with Davros last season - it's a waste to use the character this way when we know she'll just turn around and stab the Doc in the back as soon as she gets the chance.

Well, maybe. I'm​ inclined to agree with you, but I'd really love to see them surprise us and go in a new direction with that character.

gore wrote:

Well, maybe. I'm​ inclined to agree with you, but I'd really love to see them surprise us and go in a new direction with that character.

Warning: Jessica Jones spoilers within

Spoiler:

I feel like Missy's alignment shift would have more weight to it if they hadn't just thrown her in mid-episode for some morally ambivalent advice. I compare it to the mid-season story arc in Jessica Jones, when she and Kilgrave are together and he tries to prove to her how he can be "good". When he does try to help, he does so in his own monstrous way and is undone by his own pathological Narcissism.

This happens naturally and feels necessary to show how when a morally bankrupt sociopath tries to be "good" to prove a point, they're undone by their corrupt motives and lack of compassion and humanity.

Being "good" isn't just a choice, it's the motives behind the choice. At this point, it still feels like a con.

i'm thinking that...

Spoiler:

...Given that John Simm shows up in this series at some point, that there's going to be some "inner battle between the id / ego sort of a thing going on in Missy's head at some point.

pyxistyx wrote:

i'm thinking that...

Spoiler:

...Given that John Simm shows up in this series at some point, that there's going to be some "inner battle between the id / ego sort of a thing going on in Missy's head at some point.

Spoiler:

IMAGE(https://media.giphy.com/media/S9LY7lsg9Evny/giphy.gif)

Ok. well..

That's probably the most tense I think I've ever been watching an episode of New Who, given that I knew what the 'twist' was from last weeks preview anyway.

Straight up spoiler so people know what I'm ranting about...

Spoiler:

Bill is shot through the chest (like - massive, no going back, see through to the far side, all my organs are missing - shot), kept alive with a mechanical heart before finally being forced into literal conversion therapy to remove her individuality and turn her into a Cyberman just in time for the Dr to turn up and see the results.

All I can say about it is...

Spoiler:

If they've chosen to kill Bill off in the manner shown. In a fate SO, SO much worse than death. After turning out one of the BEST companions the series has had in YEARS, (not to mention the first openly lesbian one!) then I am going to be so incredibly pissed off with Moffat and the series creators as a whole..

That said, I suspect (hope!) the Doctor will be probably using his regeneration energy to magic her back into existence somehow, hence the bit at the very start of the episode.

I shall reserve my full wrath until next week.

*Actually, no. I won't. I'm really f*cking angry about what happened to Bill in this episode And I'm not sure if that's because it's really GOOD writing (in which case, well played, writing team - ya got me!) or really BAD, lazy writing, in which case...

Spoiler:

It's yet another name for the "Bring Out Your Gay's" trope list of dead lesbians in TV.

I'm 99% certain it will end up being the former, but knowing that the rumour is she's just a companion for one series...

* Welp...

Spoiler:

Apparently Moffat confirmed that that's basically 'it' for Bill. Either he's lying to cover up a 'twist' or my worst assumptions were correct.

To kill her off is one thing. To put her, as a lesbian, through, what is essentially the ultimate CONVERSION THERAPY first, to make her "normal and emotionless like everyone else" ...f*cking. hell. That's either staggeringly short sighted or sickeningly twisted from a writing standpoint.

Ugh. I can't believe I've literally given myself a headache with how goddamn angry this has made me.
Sorry for the rant everyone!

The only thing I didn't like was the doctor referring to Missy always in the masculine pronoun. Loved the interactions between Bill and rag man. I think most people will see the last scene coming a mile away unless they haven't been watching who for long.

The big hole in the plot was interesting but I was sure it was going to get plugged up. The episode reminded me of a twilight zone episode but with a few changes. I know the change will be reversed probably in the next episode just like the blindness.

@pyxistyx: If this is really meant to be an allusion for conversion therapy, then surely Bill will be turned into a human again, because conversion therapy does not work in real life... I do wonder whether any of the writers even thought about those parallels, I would not give them that much credit.

I mostly liked the episode, even though the similarities between this and Genesis of the Daleks was so much on the nose that the Master didn't need to shout out the alternative episode title.

Quick question: is the next episode Capaldi's last one or the Christmas special?

I think it's very very unlikely that Bill will stay that way.

There were a lot of laugh out loud moments for me this episode (I even checked the writing credits to see if they got a guest writer). Most were the sharply witty lines from disguised Master ("Will help with the horror to come." "What horror?" "Mainly the tea."). Missy's insistence that the Doctor's name was literally Doctor Who. The way Missy dialed up the Scottish in her accent when she talked about how she was standing in for the Doctor (so it sounded to my American ears anyway). And the cybermen looking like the original laughably ridiculous low-budget cybermen from the 60s.

Though their visual portrayal of a black hole was way off, the time dilation aspect was a clever use of a real phenomenon.

Got a pretty heavy Zathras vibe from the disguised master, which was awesome.

Thank IDRIS this was a two parter. If this really is Bill's fate, they added some (much needed?) gravitas to New Who. Which makes Pyxistyx's observations all the more poignant. However, I am not sure they can cash the rather large check/cheque they just wrote, but we shall see. DoctorDonna anyone?

Oh and..

Spoiler:

Missy/Master/BFF Timelord? What about Romana!

Spoiler:

I don't think this will be Bill's fate even if she is written off the show. Kind of expecting some redeeming heroics from Missy, killing herself to save Bill, passing the doctor's test but still leaving him without his friend.

Can't wait to get caught up on Who. Busy season at work and don't have much free time. I work at a fireworks store so the mad rush should be over soon...

Do you think that the makers of Dr Who will every tune the horror back to levels where its OK for the whole family, including children to watch again?

Of course horror and a high body count have always been a part of Who but Sleep no more and to a lesser extent World enough and time both contain scenes that are too much for the majority of very young children.

With Moffat leaving, I would suspect...possibly maybe? Most of that horror stuff generally comes from either him or Mark "League of Gentlemen" Gatiss.

Right now I'm going with the theory...

Spoiler:

The Doctor uses his energy to deus ex machina 'regenerate' Bill (I'm wondering if the kid that shows up briefly in that trailer is supposed to be her - plus, her brief voice over at the start), thus forcing his own regeneration in time for Christmas

Also semi confirmed theory for the christmas special:

Spoiler:

There's a really good chance that the theory that David Bradley will be appearing as the first Doctor is true :O. Some set photos have apparently leaked which apparently confirm this.

pyxistyx wrote:

Also semi confirmed theory for the christmas special:

Spoiler:

There's a really good chance that the theory that David Bradley will be appearing as the first Doctor is true :O. Some set photos have apparently leaked which apparently confirm this.

Spoiler:

IMAGE(https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/harrypotter/images/e/e6/Filch_in_Deleted_Scene.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110716163645)

Doctor Falls spoilers:

Spoiler:

That finale was a set of good parts that didn't quite gel for me. I wanted a bit more from the Master / Missy bit - seeing John Simm regenerate into MIssy would have capped it for me I think. I was floored by the cute girl from episode one coming back, but reading up on it makes it seem less of an ass pull, and that episode set up rules that were followed consistently here.

There's a bit of overlap with Clara in the last series here - Moff's having it both ways with Bill both dying and not dying which kills some of the pathos of the death, though riding off into the sunset with her girl at least feels less unfair than Bill being fridged as a cyberman. I can see why they do it without feeling satisfied by it, I guess.

Ultimately I feel that Bill deserved a few more series, and it's a shame she won't get them.

Spoiler heavy take from a mate of mine

Bill

was distracted by house guests... going to watch shortly. crossing all of the fingers.

Ok, yeah, that was pretty good.

Spoiler:

Relieved they resolved Bill's story in a non-unpleasant way (that was suitably telegraphed in past episodes, and wasn't a complete deus ex machina...ish. ). That was always going to be my biggest sticking point. And the door is left open for her to show up again later should they want to make it work somehow, which is great.

Disappointed Missy didn't get her big redemption scene...Although, on thinking about it, she kinda did, it's just the Doctor didn't get to see it. What was it he said - doing the right thing when there's no one around to witness it? I have to assume that was deliberate, right?

Yay! Was right about David Bradley showing up. Didn't quite expect it to be at the end of THIS episode though. Cool!

Hope someone remembers to go back for Nardol and the kids :O !

Looking forward to my Lady Doctor at Xmas ...I mean, the number of times Gender comes up over the last few episodes it MUST be fairly likely, right? Either that or they are the biggest, meanest teases of all time.

My thoughts:

Spoiler:

After as much time as they spent on the Doctor/Missy relationship and its growth potential in the last few episodes, i was pretty sad that they only really had the two scenes together. I had high hopes for the Doctor regeneration not coming from his own wounds, but from saving Missy (who was selflessly saving Bill if i could really have everything line up perfectly).

And what did she put in his hand? Did that ever pay off?

That said, i'm really glad that they spent so much time with Bill, and specifically visually found a way to both let her act while also never letting the audience forget that she's in the suit. She has been fantastic this entire run and i wouldn't be at all sad if next season was The Doctor taking a break to regenerate while she went around the universe with companion Heather, calling herself Doctor Who.

Re: The Master/Missy

DudleySmith wrote:
Spoiler:

That finale was a set of good parts that didn't quite gel for me. I wanted a bit more from the Master / Missy bit - seeing John Simm regenerate into MIssy would have capped it for me I think.

Spoiler:

There's no way Missy is his next regeneration. It would mean they would have to use an earlier incarnation of the Master the next time they inevitably use the character, and a villain fighting the resentment of knowing they'll eventually be won over by their do-gooding foil is too good a story hook to pass up.