Doctor Who *Spoilers Abound! We've lost Containment*

kazar wrote:
Spoiler:

I don't buy this can't change the time continuum excuse. The only fixed point is that the Ponds die in the past. That doesn't mean the doctor can't pick them up in the past and have more adventures with them, as long as they die in the past. It also just means that when they die, they need to die in the past. They can live in the present until their final years. And the Doctor can bring the father into the past to live the rest of his life with them.

Spoiler:

...except that the Doctor saw the book's final chapter, "Amelia's Last Farewell," so regardless of whether or not the event can be be changed, he's convinced it can't be and isn't willing to risk destroying the city or the Pond's lives trying to see them again. While still heartbroken, he's content knowing they lived a full life after him.

ruhk wrote:
kazar wrote:
Spoiler:

I don't buy this can't change the time continuum excuse. The only fixed point is that the Ponds die in the past. That doesn't mean the doctor can't pick them up in the past and have more adventures with them, as long as they die in the past. It also just means that when they die, they need to die in the past. They can live in the present until their final years. And the Doctor can bring the father into the past to live the rest of his life with them.

Spoiler:

...except that the Doctor saw the book's final chapter, "Amelia's Last Farewell," so regardless of whether or not the event can be be changed, he's convinced it can't be and isn't willing to risk destroying the city or the Pond's lives trying to see them again. While still heartbroken, he's content knowing they lived a full life after him.

Spoiler:

Except it is a book. There is no evidence that beyond the book there isn't more adventures. I don't think speculation counts as a fixed point in time.

kazar wrote:
Spoiler:

Except it is a book. There is no evidence that beyond the book there isn't more adventures. I don't think speculation counts as a fixed point in time.

Sooo... I take it you missed the epilogue, then?

Stele, I can't believe how fast you're plowing through all these episodes. But I'm thrilled you're enjoying it enough to keep at it. I'm eager to hear your thoughts after watching series six. I think a lot of folks consider it a mixed bag, but I think there's some wonderfully dark and spooky moments along the way, and those are my favorite sort of experiences from Moffat's run so far.

Also, once you're caught up all the way, there's that whole "who's your favorite Doctor" business.

IMAGE(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/314176_208189542645820_1168130338_n.jpg)

S5, "Cold Blood"

Spoiler:

RORY!

He can't be gone. Amy just decided she loved him two episodes back.

And WTF, piece of the Tardis. I suppose that going boom could cause a crack in time. Eek.

Looking forward to see how we get out of this one.

EDIT: Also forgot the most hilarious quote:

Spoiler:

Doctor, shedload of those creatures coming our way!

Does anybody else find it odd that Stele is spoiler tagging stuff from two years ago in a thread that has a spoiler warning in the title?

iaintgotnopants wrote:

Does anybody else find it odd that Stele is spoiler tagging stuff from two years ago in a thread that has a spoiler warning in the title?

Spoiler:

Nope, but I'm not a spoiler criticism expert.

I find it weird that we're using spoiler tags at all, with the warning in the title!

Spoiler tags are polite.

The way it's being done now is probably the best compromise. If there were more traffic, I'd suggest one thread for current discussions and another for older episodes and general Whovian discourse. But there's not enough conversation to support that.

I don't really have a good, coherent opinion of this episode. Some scattered thoughts:

Spoiler:

The overall mood of the episode was very well done, but almost excessively dark. I keep thinking of that poor 4-year-old kid doing the recaps....

It's kind of ridiculous that people would just walk into Winter Quay like they did several times. But between the setting in 30's New York and the general horror mood, I got a strong Lovecraft vibe off the show, so it doesn't bother me to assume that some irresistible supernatural force is compelling them.

That said, I agree that using the Statue of Liberty was over the top and unnecessary to the plot. If they wanted to acknowledge that, yes, they're doing an Angels episode in a city with a famous statue, they could have done a shot with an Angel on her head or something. That's a quibble, though.

Another quibble: I don't think it's reasonable for anyone to name a hotel anywhere in America Winter Quay, even in 1938. That stuck out to my American eyes/ears. On the bright side, the accents were good; if there were any non-Americans doing Americans, I missed them.

The double-suicide scene was powerful, despite the Green King Kong in the background. Again, it started to cross the line for me when I thought about kids watching. I know it would give my 7-year-old nightmares to watch. I realize that other episodes have been scary and given the characters lots of peril, but there's something very different about suicide. It's darker, more inevitable and bleak. To have them pop back up, then pull the rug out again was extra manipulative. Again, very well done, but still. This is the part I'm still processing the most, unsurprisingly.

I found Grayle interesting. (I liked the trader guy in Dinosaurs on a Spaceship in the same way.) His subplot existed only to develop the conflict with the Angels, so it risked feeling superfluous, but I thought they did a good job transitioning away from him. It does, however, make me think this story would have worked better in the old-series 4-part format, with more time and 4 acts. That would let them both flesh out Grayle as more than a device, and still move him out of the way for the main event. (It might not work strung out across 4 weeks, though.)

If they don't visit Bryan during the Christmas episode and own that promise the Doctor broke, they're totally chickening out.

Stayed up late finishing S5 last night.

Spoiler:

Aww Rory waited for 2k years. Good man.

I think both my and my wife's favorite part was the flashback to "Flesh and Stone." We had both said that was weird of the Doctor to come back and hold her hands and give that long speech when it happened, and wondered how he caught up with the others in the control room so quickly. Such a cool moment.

The Doctor really does suck at dancing.

The TARDIS is the perfect wedding present. It is all 4 things: new, old, borrowed, blue! :cool:

Looks like it will be a couple weeks before we catch up still. In-laws coming Fri and staying for a week so unlikely we will watch any episodes in that time. We might be able to crush s6 the next 3 evenings, but I don't think we can do that plus 4 or 5 episodes of 7, whatever it's on now. Ah well.

Doctor Who: High on emotion, Low on sense. I've given up on it being logically consistent. Shame really. I guess it's all frosting now, no more cake.

Atomicvideohead wrote:

Doctor Who: High on emotion, Low on sense. I've given up on it being logically consistent. Shame really. I guess it's all frosting now, no more cake.

It's a fantasy show, of course it's low on sense or logic.

Atomicvideohead wrote:

Doctor Who: High on emotion, Low on sense. I've given up on it being logically consistent. Shame really. I guess it's all frosting now, no more cake.

Since when has Doctor Who been 'logically consistent' ? It's about a bloke in a trans-dimensional box travelling through time and space.

I will agree though that some of Moffatt's stuff is up its own backside admiring itself in a mirror, preening about how clever it all is. That unpleasant aftertaste ruined the second season of Sherlock for me, it felt like everyone had to be nodding along about how smart it was, kidding themselves that they could see the Emperor's new clothes.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

Spoiler tags are polite.

IMAGE(http://www.washtenawvoice.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/images_1109/real.jpg)

davet010 wrote:
Atomicvideohead wrote:

Doctor Who: High on emotion, Low on sense. I've given up on it being logically consistent. Shame really. I guess it's all frosting now, no more cake.

Since when has Doctor Who been 'logically consistent' ? It's about a bloke in a trans-dimensional box travelling through time and space.

I will agree though that some of Moffatt's stuff is up its own backside admiring itself in a mirror, preening about how clever it all is. That unpleasant aftertaste ruined the second season of Sherlock for me, it felt like everyone had to be nodding along about how smart it was, kidding themselves that they could see the Emperor's new clothes.

Logically concistent with itself. I don't care about reality when I'm watching fantasy. But all the changing rules about the angels that have alreayd been pointed out, the things that Kazar has pointed out about -- hey ! time travel solves all this.

Just giant gaping holes. It's fine if you want a giant statue to move. Just don't make it the Statue of liberty. Make it the sphinx. Or David. Play by your own rules. And when you win, then I'll think you're clever. Otherwise stop cheating and acting like it's clever.

I have trouble suspending disbelief if the needle keeps jumping off the LP of your story, so to speak.

But yeah I'll still enjoy it and watch it. But not as much. Because it's dumb and can only engage the lower functions of my brain. And I dislike the pretense that it seems to have that it engages higher than that.

Atomicvideohead wrote:

Doctor Who: High on emotion, Low on sense. I've given up on it being logically consistent. Shame really. I guess it's all frosting now, no more cake.

The older series weren't too terribly concerned with logical consistancy, either. There are multitudes of inconsistencies, plot holes and contradictions in those episodes, but a sort of objective post hoc canon has emerged from decades of fan rationalization.

ruhk wrote:

The older series weren't too terribly concerned with logical consistancy, either. There are multitudes of inconsistencies, plot holes and contradictions in those episodes,

Quite.

but a sort of objective post hoc canon has emerged from decades of fan rationalization.

Um...not quite.

That's why I said "sort of."

I like the show, but I would welcome the writers placing a moratorium on the big emotional, drawn out self-sacrificing death scene by a main character for at least a season. They've gone to that well so often over the past couple of years that it no longer has any impact on me. Or at least say that no companion will be dead more than once per season.

Spoiler:

So there's no explanation about how the Statue of Liberty (or its replacement) was a giant weeping angel. I guess they could go back in time to 1938 and... oh... the paradox-eating giant fruitbats ate that version up. Or they didn't. Something made it go away though. I suppose we'll never know.

At least the daleks have been consistent throughout the Whoverse, though. On that we can all agree!

*shifty eyes*

LouZiffer wrote:
Spoiler:

So there's no explanation about how the Statue of Liberty (or its replacement) was a giant weeping angel. I guess they could go back in time to 1938 and... oh... the paradox-eating giant fruitbats ate that version up. Or they didn't. Something made it go away though. I suppose we'll never know.

Spoiler:

There was a brief mention of the Angels "infecting" non-Angel statues and turning them into Angels, but it was sort of a throwaway line and easily missed. It's basically just an evolution of the "contagious" nature of the Angels introduced in Time of The Angels/Flesh and Stone.

Apparently the book from this weeks episode is being released in e-book format. How wonderfully meta.

Radical Ans wrote:

Apparently the book from this weeks episode is being released in e-book format. How wonderfully meta.

OK, that is awesome. Considering that I have all the Richard Castle Books, we can safely say I'm a sucker for books based on books in TV shows.

Amy will do just about anything for Rory... (spoiler for "Angels Take Manhattan")
http://bit.ly/QVWZu6

EDIT: Sorry for the double-post. I didn't realize no one else had posted in the past four hours!

Whoa whoa whoa...

Holy season 6, Batman.

Ok not done yet. And may not get done, guests incoming tomorrow... dammit. Let's see if I can scramble together my thoughts from the last two evenings.

Christmas episode... Dumbledore! Scrooge! Snow. Not sure what else there is to say.

Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon, with super guest star Mark Sheppard:

Spoiler:

Dead Doctor. 1100... huh?
And poor River. Now she's seen him die. Of course he saw her die the first time he met her. What a relationship.

Now... the kid is a time lord apparently? And Amy has that missing time... Wife and I guess that she really was out for months and had the baby already and maybe that's even the kid. Although time lord kid, I dunno.

The Doctor's Wife:

Spoiler:

Sexy!
Fun episode. Have always said the TARDIS was living, so definitely cool to see that played out. Sad about all the other TARDISes... TARDESi? uh... anyway, sucks that they're all smashed. Last Doctor, last TARDIS.

The Rebel Flesh/The Almost People:

Spoiler:

Whoa, dopplegangers. OK cool, now there's a way for the Doctor to die but not die! We think we've figured out the premiere.
But then... the flesh, John Smith, goes and dies at the end. WTF.
And finally we get an idea what's going on with Amy. Was wrong about the longer time of her being not there in Day of the Moon. She was hooked up to the machine and never back for the last 4 episodes. Still driving, but not really there. And finally that makes sense of the TARDIS's pregnant/not readings. :cool:

Sadly it's way late and we can't watch the next "to be continued..." episode. Hopefully can squeeze it in tomorrow before our guests arrive, but there will be little time the next week.

Anyway loving it all so far. Dumbledore and Mark Sheppard back to back was almost too much awesome guest star fun. Wife and I still think we have part of the premiere figured out now, but excited to find out if we're right or not. Might be another 8 days before we can watch though.

Looks like you're ready to see a good man go to war. One of my fav eps.

Radical Ans wrote:

Looks like you're ready to see a good man go to war. One of my fav eps.

It may very well have the best intro of any of the episodes in the new series. It's at the very least in the top three or so.

Also, I dunno if any of y'all are reading the Who/Star Trek: Next Generation crossover comics, but they're a lot of fun!