Baldur's Gate coming back

Playing lvl 1 characters in a 2nd edition AD&D game wasn't easy the first time - will be interesting if they skew the difficulty at all or if they just redo the assets.

trueheart78 wrote:

Playing lvl 1 characters in a 2nd edition AD&D game wasn't easy the first time - will be interesting if they skew the difficulty at all or if they just redo the assets.

Part of me is hoping for a change to 3/3.5 Edition rules. I think most people agree that was a good change, and it would be relatively easy to port it over to that, unlike 4th Edition which changes way too much to be an easy port. It would be bizarre playing Baldur's Gate in 3rd Edition though.

Redwing wrote:
trueheart78 wrote:

Playing lvl 1 characters in a 2nd edition AD&D game wasn't easy the first time - will be interesting if they skew the difficulty at all or if they just redo the assets.

Part of me is hoping for a change to 3/3.5 Edition rules. I think most people agree that was a good change, and it would be relatively easy to port it over to that, unlike 4th Edition which changes way too much to be an easy port. It would be bizarre playing Baldur's Gate in 3rd Edition though.

Boo, hiss, boo. A huge part of the appeal of Baldur's Gate was that it was 2nd edition (the Best Edition, as far as I'm concerned); it occupied a time and place in AD&D history that 3rd edition diminished, for all of its improved balance. 3E is largely about making the player feel awesome -- feats, skills, attacks of opportunity, and the rest of the substantive crunch changes all put power into the hands of the PCs. 2E, by contrast, was about making the player feel underprepared and weak; it was harsh, somewhat codified, and constantly (or nearly constantly) dangerous.

Take 2E out of BG, and you remove a huge part of the feel of the world.

2E, by contrast, was about making the player feel underprepared and weak; it was harsh, somewhat codified, and constantly (or nearly constantly) dangerous.

This is true, but it's pretty nuts at first level, when you can easily die from just one bad die roll. A longsword can do 8 points of damage, and thieves and mages can have only 8 and 6 hit points, respectively, and that's with a maximum roll and a good constitution. A fighter with an 18 constitution can have 14 hit points, meaning that he should just survive three average longsword hits, but there's a 1 in 16 chance that any two longsword hits will kill him or her, starting completely unwounded.

You can expect to do a lot of quicksaving and quickloading in Baldur's Gate.

Malor wrote:
2E, by contrast, was about making the player feel underprepared and weak; it was harsh, somewhat codified, and constantly (or nearly constantly) dangerous.

This is true, but it's pretty nuts at first level, when you can easily die from just one bad die roll. A longsword can do 8 points of damage, and thieves and mages can have only 8 and 6 hit points, respectively, and that's with a maximum roll and a good constitution. A fighter with an 18 constitution can have 14 hit points, meaning that he should just survive three average longsword hits, but there's a 1 in 16 chance that any two longsword hits will kill him or her, starting completely unwounded.

You can expect to do a lot of quicksaving and quickloading in Baldur's Gate.

This is very true. The other thing to consider here is that you can reach level 2-3 pretty readily if you take your time in Candlekeep and just outside of it; drop some xvarts, do the monk's quests, and focus on upgrading your equipment as soon as possible.

What I like, to be honest, is that every battle in BG1 feels strategic. You WILL die if you aren't pausing, thinking, and planning carefully.

Redwing wrote:
trueheart78 wrote:

Playing lvl 1 characters in a 2nd edition AD&D game wasn't easy the first time - will be interesting if they skew the difficulty at all or if they just redo the assets.

Part of me is hoping for a change to 3/3.5 Edition rules. I think most people agree that was a good change, and it would be relatively easy to port it over to that, unlike 4th Edition which changes way too much to be an easy port. It would be bizarre playing Baldur's Gate in 3rd Edition though.

What? No way! 3E wasn't a good change. Keep BG 2E like God wanted it to be!

What Ulairi said.

You think BG was bad? Try having your whole party of lvl 1s wiped out in Pool of Radiance. You didn't even have a quicksave and the character creation at the beginning took 30 minutes+ to redo.

But you got a bad die roll and you took it like a man because that's the way it's supposed to be. Adventuring is supposed to be hard, mages and thieves are supposed to be pussies in the beginning. The strategy in 2nd edition comes from how you play the game, not how you build out your character. It's an elegent system for a more civilized age.

Duffman wrote:

What Ulairi said.

You think BG was bad? Try having your whole party of lvl 1s wiped out in Pool of Radiance. You didn't even have a quicksave and the character creation at the beginning took 30 minutes+ to redo.

But you got a bad die roll and you took it like a man because that's the way it's supposed to be. Adventuring is supposed to be hard, mages and thieves are supposed to be pussies in the beginning. The strategy in 2nd edition comes from how you play the game, not how you build out your character. It's an elegent system for a more civilized age.

That's right. Games aren't supposed to be fun!

Tanglebones wrote:

That's right. Games aren't supposed to be fun!

That all depends on the person. There are those who find great pleasure in actually building and earning every single bit of armor/skill, comparing numerous armor types to find the right combination that will help you out in sticky situations. Then there are those who just want it all handed to them because they want that quick, instant gratification, instant action and thoughtless gameplay. Fun is all in the eye of the beholder, challenging doesn't always = no fun, it's just not for everyone.

Redwing wrote:

Part of me is hoping for a change to 3/3.5 Edition rules. I think most people agree that was a good change, and it would be relatively easy to port it over to that, unlike 4th Edition which changes way too much to be an easy port. It would be bizarre playing Baldur's Gate in 3rd Edition though.

I actually don't think it'd be that easy to switch to. It'd be a massive amount of work; every piece of equipment, every NPC, every monster, every spell. Each individual change is small, but the differences pervade every single aspect of the game.

I think it would be cool to integrate iPad usage with the PC. Manage inventory/spells with the iPad while the action is going down on the PC monitor.

Tanglebones wrote:
Duffman wrote:

What Ulairi said.

You think BG was bad? Try having your whole party of lvl 1s wiped out in Pool of Radiance. You didn't even have a quicksave and the character creation at the beginning took 30 minutes+ to redo.

But you got a bad die roll and you took it like a man because that's the way it's supposed to be. Adventuring is supposed to be hard, mages and thieves are supposed to be pussies in the beginning. The strategy in 2nd edition comes from how you play the game, not how you build out your character. It's an elegent system for a more civilized age.

That's right. Games aren't supposed to be fun!

In D&D you're supposed to start out as scrubs and through the heroics of the adventure become heroes. Only the strong survive and the rest don't matter!

The Conformist wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

That's right. Games aren't supposed to be fun!

That all depends on the person. There are those who find great pleasure in actually building and earning every single bit of armor/skill, comparing numerous armor types to find the right combination that will help you out in sticky situations. Then there are those who just want it all handed to them because they want that quick, instant gratification, instant action and thoughtless gameplay. Fun is all in the eye of the beholder, challenging doesn't always = no fun, it's just not for everyone.

I think Malor's point was that challenging is one thing, but insta-death upon insta-death for level 1 mages isn't fun for anyone but the most nostalgic, or most masochistic among us.

I find it weird that 2nd ed. is remembered as punishing. What I remember is our team of 1st level dudes taking out a nest of Adult Blue Dragons. Couldn't do that in 3e.

Redwing wrote:

Part of me is hoping for a change to 3/3.5 Edition rules. I think most people agree that was a good change, and it would be relatively easy to port it over to that, unlike 4th Edition which changes way too much to be an easy port. It would be bizarre playing Baldur's Gate in 3rd Edition though.

Good grief, please don't say Baldur's Gate and 4th edition in the same sentence. Part of the charm of the Baldur's gate series was finding magical items. Change it to 4th Edition and that Staff of Magi you just found? It can only be used once a day (I don't think BG1 went beyond lvl 10)

Also cross out all healing potions, and remove all wands from the game if you're going 4th Edition. Not to mention a total revamp of any and every iconic weapon like the +5 Holy Avenger all Paladins want. Oh wait! There are no "Paladins" as we know them in 4th edition so its a non-issue.

Sigh.... People at WotC managed to destroy over 30 years of iconic gaming moments with this edition.

** Sorry for the Rant **

Fun is all in the eye of the beholder

It is? Wow, I didn't like that game. All this time, I've been missing out!

I think Malor's point was that challenging is one thing, but insta-death upon insta-death for level 1 mages isn't fun for anyone but the most nostalgic, or most masochistic among us.

You know, I'm not exactly sure what my point was. I don't want 3E BG. 2E is the right way to handle it. I guess I was trying to point out that 2E is fun, but it's also ridiculously difficult at low levels, by design. It's not really a very good game system until you reach third or fourth level. It's excellent after that, but the early going is brutal.

Maybe I'm trying to be realistic about what we're asking for? Reminding everyone that, while 2E is the 'proper' rule system for that game, we're also being masochistic by wanting it that way?

Okay, I think I found my way to the point: BG is best as-is, but don't look at it through rose-colored glasses.

Tanglebones wrote:
The Conformist wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

That's right. Games aren't supposed to be fun!

That all depends on the person. There are those who find great pleasure in actually building and earning every single bit of armor/skill, comparing numerous armor types to find the right combination that will help you out in sticky situations. Then there are those who just want it all handed to them because they want that quick, instant gratification, instant action and thoughtless gameplay. Fun is all in the eye of the beholder, challenging doesn't always = no fun, it's just not for everyone.

I think Malor's point was that challenging is one thing, but insta-death upon insta-death for level 1 mages isn't fun for anyone but the most nostalgic, or most masochistic among us.

I think the difference between smart adventurers and dead adventurers are people who refuse to run away to live another day. I've played all editions of D&D and upping the power curve for low level characters is one of my biggest pet peeves. The best stories come from these crazy adventures and with higher power curves and all the rest of "modern" game design it has gone away from emergent storytelling towards "I wish I was a fantasy author" storytelling and I boo and hiss at you, good sir!

Malor wrote:
Fun is all in the eye of the beholder

It is? Wow, I didn't like that game. All this time, I've been missing out!

I think Malor's point was that challenging is one thing, but insta-death upon insta-death for level 1 mages isn't fun for anyone but the most nostalgic, or most masochistic among us.

You know, I'm not exactly sure what my point was. I don't want 3E BG. 2E is the right way to handle it. I guess I was trying to point out that 2E is fun, but it's also ridiculously difficult at low levels, by design. It's not really a very good game system until you reach third or fourth level. It's excellent after that, but the early going is brutal.

Maybe I'm trying to be realistic about what we're asking for? Reminding everyone that, while 2E is the 'proper' rule system for that game, we're also being masochistic by wanting it that way?

Okay, I think I found my way to the point: BG is best as-is, but don't look at it through rose-colored glasses.

low levels are easier in 2E than in 1E. They could always introduce the 20 point kicker than came into effect with HackMaster 4E.

low levels are easier in 2E than in 1E. They could always introduce the 20 point kicker than came into effect with HackMaster 4E.

Not familiar with that... is it like negative hit points? Or do they just add 20 hit points to everyone?

Ulairi wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:
The Conformist wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

That's right. Games aren't supposed to be fun!

That all depends on the person. There are those who find great pleasure in actually building and earning every single bit of armor/skill, comparing numerous armor types to find the right combination that will help you out in sticky situations. Then there are those who just want it all handed to them because they want that quick, instant gratification, instant action and thoughtless gameplay. Fun is all in the eye of the beholder, challenging doesn't always = no fun, it's just not for everyone.

I think Malor's point was that challenging is one thing, but insta-death upon insta-death for level 1 mages isn't fun for anyone but the most nostalgic, or most masochistic among us.

I think the difference between smart adventurers and dead adventurers are people who refuse to run away to live another day. I've played all editions of D&D and upping the power curve for low level characters is one of my biggest pet peeves. The best stories come from these crazy adventures and with higher power curves and all the rest of "modern" game design it has gone away from emergent storytelling towards "I wish I was a fantasy author" storytelling and I boo and hiss at you, good sir!

I know we've talked about this before, but honestly - the fun of the D&D game (or any other P&P RPG) does not come from the ruleset. It comes from the players you're with, and the situations you create as a group. I bet I could have a f*cking blast with RIFTS or Tunnels and Trolls, or V:TM, or damn near any system, with the right people. With the wrong people, any 'one true system' will fall flat.

Nevin73 wrote:

I think it would be cool to integrate iPad usage with the PC. Manage inventory/spells with the iPad while the action is going down on the PC monitor.

This would be awesome. An iSpellbook!

I have to admit I was half-joking myself. I think I've read, again, somewhere, that the BGEE developers are keeping the ruleset in tact.

And yeah, nostalgia plays a huge part in my love for 2E rules. That's what I played when I played PnP, all the PC games I grew up playing were 2nd Edition. So when BG came around, I knew the rules inside out.

I actually kind of like low-level 2nd edition to a point, because once you do level up, you really feel it -- generally speaking, it makes a big difference once you hit second level....as a mage, unlocking some of those 2nd level spells (which unlock at your 3rd character level), like stinking cloud, makes a huge difference in the game at that point. By the time you can learn fireball at 5th level, it's pretty fun.

Third edition, on the other hand, never clicked with me. I get intimidated by all the possible character creation choices, and feats, etc....it seems like it's really easy to gimp your character if you don't know what you're doing, and I'm the first to admit that I can't be bothered to learn all the rules properly. I get paralyzed trying to start a new game of NWN2 because I don't want to create a character, play for 20 hours and then figure out that I screwed something up.

I guess it's just time for you 3rd edition guys to get off my lawn.

Also - I just started a new game of BG using BGtutu. I lol'd when my 1st level archer got killed by the very first wolf I met outside Candlekeep.

Malor wrote:
Fun is all in the eye of the beholder

It is? Wow, I didn't like that game. All this time, I've been missing out! :-)

It is!!!! All fun as a whole is directly located within that series! And I'll be damned if fun can go anywhere else! A world with fun (Other than that located within EOTB) shared everywhere is a world I bid a good day to sir!

Ulairi wrote:

I think the difference between smart adventurers and dead adventurers are people who refuse to run away to live another day. I've played all editions of D&D and upping the power curve for low level characters is one of my biggest pet peeves. The best stories come from these crazy adventures and with higher power curves and all the rest of "modern" game design it has gone away from emergent storytelling towards "I wish I was a fantasy author" storytelling and I boo and hiss at you, good sir!

This is so true!! I played Final Fantasy XI for around 6-7 years. The most fun I've ever had with a game and the community within. And that's because we had SO many stories and adventures of trudging through dangerous areas, dying and downing a level. My invis. wearing off and having a heard of mobs chase me throughout the zone, it was just amazing. There aren't many games that capture that experience anymore.

They'll prise my THAC0 out of my COLD DEAD HANDS! That is all.

Baldur's Gate is also coming for the Mac. Is anyone else getting creeped out by the voyeuristic pictures on the site? The iPad pictures were of people (that you don't see) holding an iPad and playing the game. Now the Mac pictures show us a person (that's you don't really see) on a Mac playing the game. In fact, these pics seem more like mock-ups all the time.

Baldur's Gate: Screenshot Edition

Bullshot, you say?

Also: Duffman should be playing in the home game that takes place at my house! Except that we're on hiatus as the DM and host both had children born in February.

You could even carpool!

Malor wrote:

You can expect to do a lot of quicksaving and quickloading in Baldur's Gate.

I wonder how that'll work on iOS.

Tanglebones wrote:
The Conformist wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

That's right. Games aren't supposed to be fun!

That all depends on the person. There are those who find great pleasure in actually building and earning every single bit of armor/skill, comparing numerous armor types to find the right combination that will help you out in sticky situations. Then there are those who just want it all handed to them because they want that quick, instant gratification, instant action and thoughtless gameplay. Fun is all in the eye of the beholder, challenging doesn't always = no fun, it's just not for everyone.

I think Malor's point was that challenging is one thing, but insta-death upon insta-death for level 1 mages isn't fun for anyone but the most nostalgic, or most masochistic among us.

Magic users deserve death. Sneaky backstab death.

Aristophan wrote:

The iPad pictures were of people (that you don't see) holding an iPad and playing the game. Now the Mac pictures show us a person (that's you don't really see) on a Mac playing the game.

It gets sexier with every new platform! PC screenshots will be just some random shots of Evony girls.