Kony 2012

Quintin_Stone wrote:
BadKen wrote:

It makes me very sad when we as a world full of people can't even agree to try to stop a guy as evil as Kony, by whatever means.

I think we can agree to stop Kony. It's the "by whatever means" that has people shaking their heads.

In their defense, IC has made explicitly clear that they don't support the notion of "by whatever means". But they do seem to get mucked down a bit in the nitty-gritty of the ramifications of actually attempting to capture the asshole alive. The Avengers this ain't, sadly.

There's also a bit of pushback on the continuing depiction of sub-Saharan Africa as a near-apocalyptic wasteland of rape and sadness in the Western media, and whether or not this is just a continuation of that.

Quintin_Stone wrote:
BadKen wrote:

It makes me very sad when we as a world full of people can't even agree to try to stop a guy as evil as Kony, by whatever means.

I think we can agree to stop Kony. It's the "by whatever means" that has people shaking their heads.

Yet we aren't doing that, so we're okay.

This is fascinating. If Invisible Children's specific goal ends up fizzling out, I wonder what sort of impact this will have going forward.

I do also wonder how IC will pose itself if this does lead to the capture of Kony.

MilkmanDanimal wrote:

Yeah, Kony is about as bad as you can get. That being said, my first thought when I started seeing all this going around in the last few days was sub-Saharan Africa has been a hellhole in all sorts of ways for decades; people are just noticing?

True, for good or ill. that's the flip side of what Prederick accurately points out as goodwill colonialism. it's usually fueled by a jolt out of ignorance to the situation in parts of africa.

I'm honestly really torn on this one (which is why I've held off from commenting so far). I see two concerns at war here in deciding where I stand on this:

Concern 1: The need to keep pushing the momentum built up this last year in particular of the populace actually forcing the government to genuinely represent us and our wishes is important to keep going. Part of that is getting the government to actually pursue actions relating to the will of the people rather than pander to moneyed interests. In this regard, I like what the Kony2012 movement is ostensibly trying to do: pressure our government into helping arrest a notorious violator of basic human rights.

Concern 2: As several people have shown through related articles and videos, the movement is also oversimplifying the conflict, as well as (arguably unfairly) implying that the local nations are incapable of standing up and dealing with Kony and the LRA themselves. If they can deal with Kony, then its arguable that we should let them. That kind of success over a long-term problem can be very empowering, and can yield better long-term results than a foreign nation stepping in to "save the day" (especially the US with our yeehaw cowboy reputation internationally).

So... I don't know what's better in this situation.

garion333 wrote:

This is fascinating. If Invisible Children's specific goal ends up fizzling out, I wonder what sort of impact this will have going forward.

That you can make a lot of money by setting up a "charity" and targeting the Internet generation with a Youtube video that tugs on your heartstrings.

BadKen wrote:
Aetius wrote:

The supposed "regional governments" our military units are coordinating aren't any better than the LRA itself.

Oh, so all their leaders are on the International Criminal Court's list of most wanted for crimes against humanity too?

Well it's not for lack of trying, or lack of evidence.

This may come as a shock, but the ICC is highly political and everyone in Africa knows it. The only difference with Kony is that he is currently in the weaker political position - if Kony had won the fight in Uganda, he'd be the President and Museveni would be the criminal.

It makes me very sad when we as a world full of people can't even agree to try to stop a guy as evil as Kony, by whatever means.

And what happens when such an intervention makes things even worse - which is the almost-guaranteed outcome of meddling in a situation that our government knows very little about and does not, cannot, understand? Especially when previous meddling helped create the current awful situation! It's like hiring a plumber to do open-heart surgery - it just doesn't work.

Don't fall into the classic American trap of assigning "good guy" and "bad guy" in a situation where there are no good guys. Stopping a guy as evil as Kony accomplishes nothing; it simply enables the other bad guys and disrupts the balance of power, which creates chaos and additional horror as the sides adjust to the new environment. We did the same thing in Iraq by removing our guy Saddam Hussein and now nearly a million people are dead, many of them tortured by the puppet government the United States set up or gunned down in the street by American troops for getting too close to a vehicle or checkpoint.

Farscry wrote:

Concern 2: As several people have shown through related articles and videos, the movement is also oversimplifying the conflict, as well as (arguably unfairly) implying that the local nations are incapable of standing up and dealing with Kony and the LRA themselves. If they can deal with Kony, then its arguable that we should let them. That kind of success over a long-term problem can be very empowering, and can yield better long-term results than a foreign nation stepping in to "save the day" (especially the US with our yeehaw cowboy reputation internationally).

Hasn't this guy been operating in the region for decades, with no real support from anyone? If they could in fact deal with him, why would they not have done so?

ClockworkHouse wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:
BadKen wrote:

It makes me very sad when we as a world full of people can't even agree to try to stop a guy as evil as Kony, by whatever means.

I think we can agree to stop Kony. It's the "by whatever means" that has people shaking their heads.

Aw, crap, I agree with Quintin Stone? My life is f*cking over, man.

Yeh, I mean, that dude didn't even like Attack the Block!

Oh, and regarding the whole 'by any means necessary', all of my teenage Facebook friends are more into the idea of righteous vandalism and fashion statements than the actual mechanics of the movement.

El-Taco-the-Rogue wrote:

Oh, and regarding the whole 'by any means necessary', all of my teenage Facebook friends are more into the idea of righteous vandalism and fashion statements than the actual mechanics of the movement.

That is the mechanics of the movement. Make enough noise that legislators do something.

Rush Limbaugh defending Kony and the LRA, and using Kony as a tool to demonize Obama is more headline-worthy than calling Sandra Fluke a slut. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the Fluke thing made headlines and cost him advertisers, but good lord.

How is this f*cking idiot the #1 radio show in the U.S.? I'm seriously embarrassed for this country.

Jeff-66 wrote:

How is this f*cking idiot the #1 radio show in the U.S.? I'm seriously embarrassed for this country.

What, you some commie-lovin Merica-hating Muslim or somethin?

IMAGE(http://www.dba-oracle.com/images/red_neck_car.jpg)

KrazyTacoFO wrote:
Jeff-66 wrote:

How is this f*cking idiot the #1 radio show in the U.S.? I'm seriously embarrassed for this country.

What, you some commie-lovin Merica-hating Muslim or somethin?

IMAGE(http://www.dba-oracle.com/images/red_neck_car.jpg)

KrazyTaco wins the internet!

even the horse in the background has a look of incredulity.

H.P. Lovesauce wrote:

When we have the opportunity to remove a little bit of evil, isn't that a little bit good?

Didn't I hear that in 2003?

Jeff-66 wrote:

How is this f*cking idiot the #1 radio show in the U.S.? I'm seriously embarrassed for this country.

As the blogger Atrios notes from time to time, much of the right wing just delights in doing stuff that pisses off liberals. Rush is their voice.

Ugandans react with anger to Kony 2012 video.

AlJazeera wrote:

People I spoke to anticipated seeing a video that showed the world the terrible atrocities that they had suffered during the conflict, and the ongoing struggles they still face trying to rebuild their lives after two lost decades.

The audience was at first puzzled to see the narrative lead by an American man – Jason Russell – and his young son.

Towards the end of the film, the mood turned more to anger at what many people saw as a foreign, inaccurate account that belittled and commercialised their suffering, as the film promotes Kony bracelets and other fundraising merchandise, with the aim of making Kony infamous.

One woman I spoke to made the comparison of selling Osama Bin Laden paraphernalia post 9/11 – likely to be highly offensive to many Americans, however well intentioned the campaign behind it.

The event ended with the angrier members of the audience throwing rocks and shouting abusive criticism, as the rest fled for safety, leaving an abandoned projector, with organisers and the press running for cover until the dust settled.

Now, in deference, KONY 2012 was not for the Ugandan people, but for Americans who otherwise wouldn't have paid 5 milliseconds attention to the problem. But on the other hand, if the people you're trying to help aren't thrilled with your efforts....

Aetius wrote:

This may come as a shock, but the ICC is highly political and everyone in Africa knows it. The only difference with Kony is that he is currently in the weaker political position - if Kony had won the fight in Uganda, he'd be the President and Museveni would be the criminal.

The ICC has warrants out for many in the Sudanese government. As a matter of fact, they issued a warrant for the Minister of Defence at the start of this month. Interestingly, Museveni made a speech recently where he accused the ICC of targeting African leaders.

I'm not naive enough to assume that any organisation is free of political interference but I don't think the facts on the ground back the assertion that the ICC is a "highly political" body or that everyone in Africa sees it as a defender of the winner of the brutal conflicts. Museveni, for one, disagrees with you on the latter point (while agreeing with you on the first ).

If there was anything good to come of this, it would be a ground swell of public support for the US to actually to become a signed up member of the ICC. On the whole bringing war criminals in front of a court is, to my mind, a good and noble goal.

Axon wrote:

If there was anything good to come of this, it would be a ground swell of public support for the US to actually to become a signed up member of the ICC. On the whole bringing war criminals in front of a court is, to my mind, a good and noble goal.

That will never happen, regardless of public support. The American military has committed far too many war crimes, and will absolutely not tolerate being judged and sentenced by others. Most Africans don't see the ICC as supporting the winners of conflicts necessarily, they see it as attacking whichever warlord or leader is currently out of favor with the West - hence the warrant for Al-Bashir.

I accept your points to a degree, Aetius, but let us leave the merits of the ICC for another more relevant thread as I think we've both made our point and further discussion will only derail the main topic. When a more apt thread arises, I'll be there .

As for Kony, Invisible Children and the topic at hand, it seems Charlie Brooker on last nights 10 o'Clock Live may have found a rather revealing angle behind the video.

Charlie Brooker is the man.

That was pretty spot on.

Skweezy was pretty spot on too.

NSFW. Get past the first part and he says some interesting things.

It's far too late at night for me to properly sift through and process the mix of issues in the following, in the meantime as reading material;

Invisible Children Funded By Antigay, Creationist Christian Right.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...

SAN DIEGO – A co-founder of Invisible Children, the group behind the “KONY 2012” video on alleged atrocities by an African warlord, has been arrested for being drunk in public and masturbating, according to the San Diego Police Department.
Jason Russell, was taken into custody after he was found masturbating in public, vandalizing cars and possibly under the influence of something, said Lt. Andra Brown, NBCSanDiego.com reported.

I work with a few people who've interacted with the IC founders and the impression they've had for years is that they're pompous, opportunistic narcissists.

That certainly seems to be the case, doesn't it.

Um. What the what?

Come on, happens to all of us. *hic*

Rexneron wrote:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...

SAN DIEGO – A co-founder of Invisible Children, the group behind the “KONY 2012” video on alleged atrocities by an African warlord, has been arrested for being drunk in public and masturbating, according to the San Diego Police Department.
Jason Russell, was taken into custody after he was found masturbating in public, vandalizing cars and possibly under the influence of something, said Lt. Andra Brown, NBCSanDiego.com reported.

I work with a few people who've interacted with the IC founders and the impression they've had for years is that they're pompous, opportunistic narcissists.

That sucks. I know a few people that have volunteered with IC and they're great people.