Sexual harassment is a part of the fighting game culture...

He does realize these are the same thought processes that jump-started negro league baseball.

I made a thread about this in the Games section of the forum, but it didn't get much traction. It's kinda sad to see something like this get out of hand to this level. I remember trash talk happening around arcades, but never at this sort of misogynistic and extremely offensive language. The worst I ever got as an arcade kid was getting crushed and made fun of for being bad a games. I'd put my next quarter down, try to get the rematch, and if they were better so be it. But I was never treated like I was in a prison yard getting intimidated and mocked as if I was the one receiving a physical beatdown.

Stengah wrote:
Malor wrote:

So a few loud, obnoxious bullies are dominating the conversation.

Those of you in that community who are quiet about this, are complicit in the abuse.

Based on the comments (that I've read) on the PA Report and Giant Bomb articles at least, it looks like it's more than just a few. That said, accusing everyone in that community of being complicit if they aren't extremely vocal in their disapproval isn't going to lead anywhere good.

While it's certainly not fair, developers and gamers should do what they can to stomp out this sort mentality for the sake of their hobby and business. Being silent like Capcom essentially was, is not a good thing. Capcom only stated that those comments did not reflect the opinions of their company. This is their chance to effect their audience for the better. They, and possibly the entire industry, may have lost the woman involved in this event as a customer. And if you were a female gamer seeing this, I doubt they would want to endure this to enjoy a hobby that isn't a boys only club.

This whole thing reminds me of when Jeff Green was talking about the Spike TV gaming awards and how it felt like a step back for the industry. That whenever the gaming industry makes progress there are these incidents that take us a few steps back and remind us that the culture is not advancing as much as we think, holding back the overall progress of the medium.

Coldtouch wrote:

I made a thread about this in the Games section of the forum, but it didn't get much traction. It's kinda sad to see something like this get out of hand to this level. I remember trash talk happening around arcades, but never at this sort of misogynistic and extremely offensive language. The worst I ever got as an arcade kid was getting crushed and made fun of for being bad a games. I'd put my next quarter down, try to get the rematch, and if they were better so be it. But I was never treated like I was in a prison yard getting intimidated and mocked as if I was the one receiving a physical beatdown.

When I was growing up, the arcade crowd was actually a lot like the guy described. We were horrible to each other verbally - telling perfect strangers to their face that they were (insert random streak of derisive terms for gay people here) and after I was done f'ing them here I was heading to their place to do the same to their mother or sister. This is the general "I" here, not me specifically, though I did engage in my fair share of this. We'd shout and jeer at people and start clapping when someone would cry or do anything that showed they were hurt in some manner.

Also, we were about 12-16 at this time. The idea that this sort of behavior is something that should be enshrined and protected by adults is hilarious. If the point was "people will act like this, there's only so much we can do to stop it," I'd agree. But instead, he's treating this attitude as a revered and sacred thing that must be preserved for the sake of a group's identity.

Coldtouch, I'm not calling you out here, but I have a lot of frustration here and I'm afraid you're the one who said it in this thread. Please understand this is not an attack.

You say you've never heard or seen anything like this. I'll be brutally frank, I'll guess it's because you don't have boobs, are white, and not gay. I used to get crap like that all the time in the arcades back in the 80's. And more than words. There was the one guy in the college rec room who unplugged the Hogan's Alley machine and started waving his fists at me and calling me all sorts of things because I beat his score. My ex husband and the RA had to deal with him. I wasn't gunning for him. Didn't know him from Adam's Stepson and hadn't said a word. I didn't know that those three letters at the top of the scoreboard were him and I wouldn't have cared if I had.

We've had this conversation over and over in this forum. How many times do those of us who do have to face this every time we give in and try to connect with those who share our hobby have to point this kind of behavior out before enough other people realize this is real and a huge problem and we need to do something about it? Take a quick tour of www.fatuglyorslutty.com for a few glints off one facet at the top of a huge greasy, skeezy iceberg.

You've hit it on the head in one respect - this crap drives away a great many gamers. Not just females. As I mentioned above, anyone with a strong ethnic background or an alternative sexuality is in the same place. Having people just "man up" and take it isn't the answer. It's not fair. Why does anyone have to put up with that kind of atmosphere just to stand there with the rest of the players?

oilypenguin wrote:
DanB wrote:

Worst PR for CAPCOM ever.

On the one hand, Capcom can hardly be held accountable for what some idiot says on a reality TV show.

Totally and you pay for a reality show and you get weirdos. Still, I'll bet someone in CAPCOM's marketing dept. is not happy at all.

I think we can all agree that the atmosphere created by hate speech is unacceptable for fighting games and games at large.
As loathe as I am to point it out, does beardo mcgee have some base point that is twisted by his misogynistic viewpoint?
Does esporting things take away from the head to head, almost hood mentality (stole that from the latest giantbombcast which briwefly discusses the incident)?
I don't think so, but I can see the case being made for it.

boogle wrote:

I think we can all agree that the atmosphere created by hate speech is unacceptable for fighting games and games at large.
As loathe as I am to point it out, does beardo mcgee have some base point that is twisted by his misogynistic viewpoint?
Does esporting things take away from the head to head, almost hood mentality (stole that from the latest giantbombcast which briwefly discusses the incident)?
I don't think so, but I can see the case being made for it.

I bit of trash talk, trying to psyche out your opponent, keeping the pressure up is probably fine but if you cross the line into something discriminatory then that obviously isn't fine.

Talking smack can be done without using sexist, homophobic or racial slurs.

edit: tannhausered.

Let me add that if you can't do better than calling someone gay, nigger or bitch you're really not that smart or creative. It's a poor man's insult.

I was never part of the arcade scene, but if you watch Arcade Hustla on YouTube you'll see NYC players talking about crazy stuff that happened. One guy, called Arturo, had a gun pulled on him and held to his head - he was 13 or so.

I'm not part of the fighting game community, I just watch the videos and keep an eye on what's going on. But the way this has been portrayed seems to have skillfully ignored the people speaking out against sexism on Shoryuken, as well as the fact the Street Fighter team in the competition was totally legit, no hint of anything unpleasant whatsoever.

On the point of ethnic gamers and sexuality, from what I can glean a lot of the gamers in the FGC are black. There are also a lot of Asians. And, it might be a one-off, but one of the most respected pro players is a flamboyant gay dude called Ricky Ortiz, who plays in ridiculous 1970s sunglasses and calls himself a 'fierce bitch'. One poster on Shoryuken said that they community doesn't attack Ricky because the man has proved himself and will destroy anyone who talks sh*t.

The scene needs to change, absolutely. I'd be more likely to go to real meet-ups if I felt it would be friendlier. But it isn't all bad.

I kept hoping that MLG would somehow manage to get Capcom to let them use their games, maybe legitimize that scene to some degree and filter out assholes like this, but the community keeps resisting and doing so very loudly. I never quite understood why until I started seeing notes on twitter about this asshole and his behavior on that show.

Pathetic. I did watch some bits of the most recent EVO and Destruction tournaments when they were on, and some other fighting game stuff here and there. I think I'll be skipping any fighting game events in the foreseeable future and emailing capcom about the why. I expect it'll accomplish absolutely nothing but I don't know what else to do.

DanB wrote:
boogle wrote:

I think we can all agree that the atmosphere created by hate speech is unacceptable for fighting games and games at large.
As loathe as I am to point it out, does beardo mcgee have some base point that is twisted by his misogynistic viewpoint?
Does esporting things take away from the head to head, almost hood mentality (stole that from the latest giantbombcast which briwefly discusses the incident)?
I don't think so, but I can see the case being made for it.

I bit of trash talk, trying to psyche out your opponent, keeping the pressure up is probably fine but if you cross the line into something discriminatory then that obviously isn't fine.

And if your opponent is easily distracted by that drivel than they're not much of an opponent.

Hell, you should know better than most, Boogle. How often did I get you trying to come hunt me down instead of stabbing anyone useful in TF2?

Play the player, not the game, etc etc...

1Dgaf wrote:

But the way this has been portrayed seems to have skillfully ignored the people speaking out against sexism on Shoryuken, as well as the fact the Street Fighter team in the competition was totally legit, no hint of anything unpleasant whatsoever.

"Skillfully ignored"? More like enthusiast press isn't really filled with real journalists. I don't think those who speak out against it are being ignored so much as they may not be known about.

I also believe that we're not all so stupid as to assume that one guy, regardless of what he said and what the people in his chat were saying, represents everyone in the community. He went and inserted his foot into his mouth, hard, and I don't think he's quite realized it because he's quite possibly socially retarded. I meant that literally. It appears he lives in a microcosm that has allowed him to come to a place where the things he said, while said in the heat of the moment and were perhaps embellishments on what he really feels, were still okay in the grand scheme of things and didn't need to "properly" apologize.

Anyway, clearly there's an issue, but I don't think most of us here were making the assumption that fighting game fans are all like him.

4xis.black wrote:
SpacePPoliceman wrote:

Is it shocking that the guy who thinks rape threats are acceptable looks, himself, like a rapist? I say no. f*ck these troglodytes.

I've heard that the majority of rapists don't generally look different from non-rapists. Regardless, f*ck those troglodytes is right.

"Looks like a certain specific culturally constructed idea of the appearance of a rapist" lacked a certain brevity and punch.

garion333 wrote:

I also believe that we're not all so stupid as to assume that one guy, regardless of what he said and what the people in his chat were saying, represents everyone in the community...
Anyway, clearly there's an issue, but I don't think most of us here were making the assumption that fighting game fans are all like him.

Certainly not, but it's fair to say that he represents a clear type in fighting game culture, and game culture at large.

I'd really love to see some tables turned on these types and their paper thing justifications. Like, next time "this is just the real me, man" gets invoked, someone pisses on their leg and says "What? This is just the real me, too."

garion333 wrote:

Anyway, clearly there's an issue, but I don't think most of us here were making the assumption that fighting game fans are all like him.

I am, in fact, making this assumption. And that's speaking as a fighting game fan. Not 'all' but certainly a significant percentage. However, I think most of those people are just behaving like that in the context of that environment. If the atmosphere were to change, I think that most people would change with it and go with the flow.

The scene can be toxic and will continue to be toxic until sponsors start throwing money at the right people and more importantly, stop throwing money at the wrong people.

And so we're reminded of one of the reasons why Gamers With Jobs exists.

oilypenguin wrote:

The scene can be toxic and will continue to be toxic until sponsors start throwing money at the right people and more importantly, stop throwing money at the wrong people.

This is why I wish Capcom would let MLG use their games. But every time talks come up the fighting game community throws a massive fit and it never happens.

LouZiffer wrote:

And so we're reminded of one of the reasons why Gamers With Jobs exists.

And I'm thankful it does.

Kannon, on a specific level, I liked stabbing you because it was hard. Heavies get easy after a bit.
I know trash talk works (re: methrage) but the point still stands how do you embrace trash talk and regulate it?
Hell real leagues struggle with this.
I think, the only way to go about it is to call them a small dicked bigot and move on. Piss on their lawn and then go play with the respectful kids.
But that doesn't stop a 14 year old from dumbly looking up to them and that f*cking sucks.

momgamer wrote:

Take a quick tour of www.fatuglyorslutty.com for a few glints off one facet at the top of a huge greasy, skeezy iceberg.

Yikes. Suddenly, my Live account seems a whole lot less appealing.

I wonder how aggressive the Live community management team is at enforcing its harassment policy?

momgamer wrote:

Coldtouch, I'm not calling you out here, but I have a lot of frustration here and I'm afraid you're the one who said it in this thread. Please understand this is not an attack.

You say you've never heard or seen anything like this. I'll be brutally frank, I'll guess it's because you don't have boobs, are white, and not gay. I used to get crap like that all the time in the arcades back in the 80's. And more than words. There was the one guy in the college rec room who unplugged the Hogan's Alley machine and started waving his fists at me and calling me all sorts of things because I beat his score. My ex husband and the RA had to deal with him. I wasn't gunning for him. Didn't know him from Adam's Stepson and hadn't said a word. I didn't know that those three letters at the top of the scoreboard were him and I wouldn't have cared if I had.

No offense taken and honestly, I'm glad you pointed this out. Perhaps I was simply lucky in that I fit the social preconception that went with the culture. Maybe the places/environments I went to were a larger factor that contributed to my ignorance. Others in this thread have shared their personal experiences, and its quite shocking to me. My friends always wanted people to keep playing and challenge us, rather than shaming them and rubbing their face in it. If my post came off as trying to excuse or dismiss/downplay these bullying actions, I did not intend that and apologize.

momgamer wrote:

We've had this conversation over and over in this forum. How many times do those of us who do have to face this every time we give in and try to connect with those who share our hobby have to point this kind of behavior out before enough other people realize this is real and a huge problem and we need to do something about it? Take a quick tour of www.fatuglyorslutty.com for a few glints off one facet at the top of a huge greasy, skeezy iceberg.

Probably a lot more or as much as possible, mostly due to the fact that people aren't always exposed to the worst part of the culture and can avoid it. Or they are a case like me, where I know the existence of improper behavior, but don't know how extreme it is and how much of an effect it has on those who have to endure it. I bet Bungie and Infinity Ward would like my money, but their communities are not something I want to be part of. I have never bought a Halo or CoD or Gears game because I don't want to deal with the multiplayer voicechat nonsense, and this is coming from someone who would spend hours playing multiplayer quake CTF/TF. I've been on the fence about buying a console just to get access to MvC 3 and the new mortal kombat, but if I'm going to hear junk like this Aris guys spouts forget it. If I do play multiplayer these days, it's on PC with a limited list of people who I know aren't going to act like awful human beings and the PC gives me the tools to mute, kick, or ban the worst of the worst.

Eh.

I've always perceived trash-talking to be the purview of the weak. Strong fighters need to concentrate hard on reading their opponents and executing their moves. Trash-talking just distracts them from that. Ergo, the only reason you have for trash-talking is because your mind has nothing better to do - because you suck.

The best response to trash-talking is a sound beating followed by "Good game," even when it obviously, obviously wasn't.

boogle wrote:

Kannon, on a specific level, I liked stabbing you because it was hard. Heavies get easy after a bit.
I know trash talk works (re: methrage) but the point still stands how do you embrace trash talk and regulate it?
Hell real leagues struggle with this.
I think, the only way to go about it is to call them a small dicked bigot and move on. Piss on their lawn and then go play with the respectful kids.
But that doesn't stop a 14 year old from dumbly looking up to them and that f*cking sucks.

Agreed. I think the trash talk thing is easy to state, but hard to codify into rules:

Don't spout hatespeech (Sexist, racist, homophobic, you get the drift...). It shows your lack of creativity.
Don't call for the assault (physical or otherwise) of your opponent (Or their avatar.) It shows your lack of skill.
Don't take it outside of the game. It shows your lack of respect.

Edit to respond to LarryC:

Works really well in some games, not others. I trend towards playing the "Ablative pointman" in multiplayer games, I.E being someone who is so utterly infuriating to the opponent that they devote disproportional resources to crushing me, and me personally, letting my team have a much easier time.

Now, this is easily done through gameplay alone in some cases... but alltalk voice comms or similar make it much, much easier. And I do it without being a hateful and miserable human being. Hell, compliments that other people perceive as patronizing (Even when they aren't) do a bang-up job.

...To say nothing of how easy it is when playing a physical game, like Paintball.

oilypenguin wrote:
garion333 wrote:

Anyway, clearly there's an issue, but I don't think most of us here were making the assumption that fighting game fans are all like him.

I am, in fact, making this assumption. And that's speaking as a fighting game fan. Not 'all' but certainly a significant percentage. However, I think most of those people are just behaving like that in the context of that environment. If the atmosphere were to change, I think that most people would change with it and go with the flow.

The scene can be toxic and will continue to be toxic until sponsors start throwing money at the right people and more importantly, stop throwing money at the wrong people.

My response was a bit myopic in that I was responding specifically to 1Dgaf who was defending the community. My experience with fighting game communities is such that I've always viewed MOBA communities as the latest evolution of the fighting game community. But not everyone who plays LoL is a jerk, just as not everyone who is into fighting games is like Mr. Douchebag.

However, I don't watch fighting game tournaments. What I've seen of SC2 and MOBA tournaments is pretty tame compared to the online communities. Sounds like the fighting game community, in person and offline, is more vehement overall??

DanB wrote:

I bit of trash talk, trying to psyche out your opponent, keeping the pressure up is probably fine but if you cross the line into something discriminatory then that obviously isn't fine.

I think it's important to note this Aris guy was on the same team as she was, so even though it was unacceptable regardless, the arguments that this is just normal trash talking can be thrown out the window. It kind of shows you how insular the hardcore gaming crowd still is though, that a guy can say that if he isn't allowed to be a horrible misogynist it would ruin the spirit of the community or whatever and very few people are willing to call him out on it as complete nonsense.

Also, just in case anyone here listens to the Bombcast, there has been some controversy on this week's episode how it sounds like they are justifying his actions. Jeff Gerstmann sometimes posts at Something Awful and clarified:

MonsterDunk wrote:

So... you're probably right about that, it comes off a bit weird. I think the discussion probably would have made a bit more sense if we had started with the "yeah, f*ck that guy" part of the conversation and worked into what I was getting at. Instead we went at it the other way around because we had already spent the hour or so before recording the podcast talking about how f*cked up everything that came out of the dude's mouth was. So I think I was already into trying to understand how in the f*ck that guy thought that was an OK attitude to take, because we had already had the "obviously, this guy is a piece of sh*t" part of the conversation off-mic.

I thought about making some heavy edits to that section but after listening back to the whole thing today, I decided against it. Just know that I'm not trying to defend that idiot.

obirano wrote:
LouZiffer wrote:

And so we're reminded of one of the reasons why Gamers With Jobs exists.

And I'm thankful it does.

Non-discriminatory high-fives and harassment-free butt pats for everyone!

I thought that was how it was presented on the bombcast. /shrug

http://gambit.mit.edu/updates/2011/0...

Found this in the comments section of the Giantbomb article. Its probably old news to some of you, but I never saw the video before or knew that a project like this existed.

Kannon:

It probably works for the casual groups or younger gamers. Maybe I'm just biased, but trash-talking getting the better of a team just means that they're a bad team. Not that you can't have fun playing around and such. I'm sure that's fun in its own way, but as you say, not to the extent that you're propagating hate speech.

Where I used to play, if you're generic trash-talking, you're ear-marked for death; not because you're annoying, but because you're easy prey - food for leveling in DotA. Not that I don't see trash-talking; just that it's a mark of the mediocre.

Really good, top-leveling trash-talking involves serious mind games, like naming the entire squad variations of a guy's girlfriend's hobbies when you know he's just been through a bad break-up. It's subtle, but disconcerting enough to throw a guy off his game; and most people won't even know it's going on.

Coldtouch wrote:

http://gambit.mit.edu/updates/2011/0...

Found this in the comments section of the Giantbomb article. Its probably old news to some of you, but I never saw the video before or knew that a project like this existed.

Me neither.

(Read the article first. Totally NSFW language.)

garion333 wrote:

My response was a bit myopic in that I was responding specifically to 1Dgaf who was defending the community.

I wasn't defending the community entirely, I was point out important aspects that had been ignored or not researched properly. I think it was the Giant Bomb piece that Kleppek wrote which lumped SRK into one sexist bunch (while misspelling the name of the website, too boot).

I was one of the people posting against this on Shoryuken and - before a couple of days before she quit the game - I sent a message to Capcom asking if they treated their female staff the same way that she was being treated.