OS X Mountain Lion announced

Malor wrote:

They're working toward that, since there's functionality in OS X that can now only be accessed by App Store applications. So they're headed for full lockdown eventually -- unlocked software "will run", but it won't be able to use features introduced in Mountain Lion or later. It'll be functional lockdown, while they lie through their teeth and tell you that the OS is open.

You know, this is one area where Microsoft's seemingly endless legacy support is a blessing. They would never be able to flip that sort of lockdown switch, with so many businesses relying on truly unholy homespun and fly-by-night pieces of legacy software. (If Hell is, as some faiths believe, not a place but a state of being, it was written in Win32 API.)

But, really, this is where nutbags like Stallman are proven all too right.

where nutbags like Stallman are proven all too right.

I don't think you should so lightly dismiss Stallman. He's got problems, but he saw deeper and further than almost anyone. Trivializing him, while simultaneously admitting that his life's crusade is pretty much 100% correct, strikes me as extremely, unjustifiably disrespectful.

He's a man who really and truly changed the world. He's done more for humanity than probably everyone reading these words put together. He turned copyright on its head, so that the more power that copyright is given, the more power free software accumulates. It was a move of legal ju-jitsu that will be reverberating for at least decades, and maybe centuries, even if copyright law itself changes to render his particular bit of ju-jitsu unworkable.

Dismissing him as a 'nutbag' ... I dunno, Legion. You might want to reconsider that position. I don't think all of us together have the moral authority to judge that man. I don't like him on a personal level much at all, but who the f*ck cares about my opinion, you know?

I mean, the fact that we can even be having this discussion at all can be partially attributed to Stallman. Without the GPL, we'd probably just have BSD licensing, and without the extra energy and developers that the GPL brought to free software, expanding its scope and impact so very much, many (most?) small online communities like Gamers With Jobs might not even exist.

It's kind of funny to call Stallman a nutbag on a platform that probably wouldn't exist if he hadn't been there.

Which also highlights Apple's intense hypocrisy -- they would not exist today without the BSD software stack. There is no way they'd have had the developer manpower to write an OS from scratch again without that code to build from.

And yet, they're now using that code, which was given to them for free, to lock the people who gave it to them away from their own hardware.

If there's a final proof that GPL code is freer than BSD code, I think Apple is it.

No, he's a nutbag. Sorry. He's a nutbag who's had a net positive effect on the world, and he's far less dangerously nutty than ers--but that doesn't make him any less nuts, or any more wrong about a variety of things unrelated to the one big good idea he had. (Or even things related to that one big idea. Look at the history of emacs development for some insight there.)

Just because someone has a good idea doesn't make their other ideas correct or make their personal problems any less significant. It gives us a reason to look twice before dismissing what they say, and overlook their issues at times. But that doesn't mean the issues aren't there.

P.S. Can you please talk about something without using outrageous hyperbole? It's getting a little tiresome. "[T]hey're now using that code, which was given to them for free, to lock the people who gave it to them away from their own hardware." Really? Could you possibly be [em]any[/em] more melodramatic? Do you even use a Mac? Do you have a firm understanding of what this means to people who have a pressing need to run arbitrary software on a Mac? Because I build and run software on the Mac every day, and the impact I foresee is "f*ck all".

Do you even use a Mac?

Yes. I'm typing this on one, in fact.

edit: I'm just gonna delete the rest of this. There's no point in arguing with you.

Two things:

1. Even in the completely locked down world of iOS you can still run any code you want on the machine if you build it from source and have a signing key. I assume this will continue to be the case on the Mac as well.

2. Similarly, for enterprises there are ways to deploy custom software internally that bypass the iOS app store. This is not needed on the Mac, yet, but presumably the same mechanism could be built in principle.

Hypatian wrote:

Just because someone has a good idea doesn't make their other ideas correct or make their personal problems any less significant. It gives us a reason to look twice before dismissing what they say, and overlook their issues at times. But that doesn't mean the issues aren't there.

I'm perpetually frustrated by some of the crap that comes out of the Free Software Foundation.

My feelings toward Stallman and the FSF very closely mirror my feelings towards the NRA. I am very pro-free software and I am very pro-2nd amendment rights. But too much of what comes from the biggest advocate groups for these is, yes, nutbaggery. It's very frustrating to be for a cause and watch groups advocate it in a self-destructive and unproductive manner.

So Mountain Lion is out today. Anyone have plans to upgrade? Anyone able to test it before today? Thoughts? I probably will upgrade if only because I have money sitting in my Apple account.

I will wait for the x.x.1.

Around 9:30 eastern, I submitted the three 'up-to-date' requests for the macs I've bought since 7/2 but no response to any of them yet. I will upgrade at least one immediately to see what's changed. Here's hoping they've fixed Mail's exchange problems.

ibdoomed wrote:

Around 9:30 eastern, I submitted the three 'up-to-date' requests for the macs I've bought since 7/2 but no response to any of them yet. I will upgrade at least one immediately to see what's changed. Here's hoping they've fixed Mail's exchange problems.

Now if they could only fix Exchange's problems

Rykin wrote:
ibdoomed wrote:

Around 9:30 eastern, I submitted the three 'up-to-date' requests for the macs I've bought since 7/2 but no response to any of them yet. I will upgrade at least one immediately to see what's changed. Here's hoping they've fixed Mail's exchange problems.

Now if they could only fix Exchange's problems ;)

Yeah. I wish we could just use osx's server mail program.. oh wait...

jonfentyler wrote:

So Mountain Lion is out today. Anyone have plans to upgrade? Anyone able to test it before today? Thoughts? I probably will upgrade if only because I have money sitting in my Apple account.

I will probably upgrade this evening, barring any apocalyptic horror stories during the day—a day which I'll otherwise entirely spend reading the Ars review. I think I look forward to those as much or more than playing with the update itself.

ibdoomed wrote:
Rykin wrote:
ibdoomed wrote:

Around 9:30 eastern, I submitted the three 'up-to-date' requests for the macs I've bought since 7/2 but no response to any of them yet. I will upgrade at least one immediately to see what's changed. Here's hoping they've fixed Mail's exchange problems.

Now if they could only fix Exchange's problems ;)

Yeah. I wish we could just use osx's server mail program.. oh wait... :ninja:

Er. You mean pretty much any mail server available for UNIX-based systems? (Most of them are free, just like Exchange... oh wait...)

So..of course, I just bought my first mac yesterday. (Macbook Air). Theoretically, I should get a free upgrade. Should I upgrade?

(I'm still figuring out this silly thing. I hate how "closed garden" it is. Jesus, I could have rewritten the tcp/ip stack on a real computer in a quarter of the time to it took to get this one to accept a corrected wep key. Of course, I was already annoyed because of being immersed in the cloud of iSmug that permeates the Apple Store. )

duckideva wrote:

So..of course, I just bought my first mac yesterday. (Macbook Air). Theoretically, I should get a free upgrade. Should I upgrade?

(I'm still figuring out this silly thing. I hate how "closed garden" it is. Jesus, I could have rewritten the tcp/ip stack on a real computer in a quarter of the time to it took to get this one to accept a corrected wep key. Of course, I was already annoyed because of being immersed in the cloud of iSmug that permeates the Apple Store. )

Honestly, it sounds like you should return it and get something else you'll enjoy using.

We've got 5 Mac's at work we will be upgrading, and we're definitely waiting for a few patches to be released before doing do. Thankfully, one is completely the test bed, so if everything works on that... Then yeah, it'll all be good

I would wait for .1 release, deva.

Took the plunge and updated three iMac's and one mini server. All went well, no apparent issues.

As someone who is generally not a very hardcore user (Home machine is fairly casual use, although I do use it for graphic design work and some video editing work) what would the reasoning be for wanting to upgrade? I'm running Snow Leopard on my old iMac now. (Mid-2007, just barely makes the list). I do recall at the time there was some benefit in gaming performance that made me upgrade from Leopard to Snow Leopard that made me want to upgrade, otherwise I'm not sure if I would have noticed, really.

I see people getting so excited for new Operating Systems, not just Mac, and I don't necessarily see the benefit of wanting to do so.

fleabagmatt wrote:

As someone who is generally not a very hardcore user (Home machine is fairly casual use, although I do use it for graphic design work and some video editing work) what would the reasoning be for wanting to upgrade? I'm running Snow Leopard on my old iMac now. (Mid-2007, just barely makes the list). I do recall at the time there was some benefit in gaming performance that made me upgrade from Leopard to Snow Leopard that made me want to upgrade, otherwise I'm not sure if I would have noticed, really.

I see people getting so excited for new Operating Systems, not just Mac, and I don't necessarily see the benefit of wanting to do so.

I'm kind of the same, an OS is a tool that just lets you do the things you want, anything more or less and it's getting in the way of those things. This is why I think I don't like Win8 so much, I see the majority of the changes as getting in the way and reinventing things. As a geek I like under-the-hood improvements, but the majority shouldn't care.

An OS should be transparent, it shouldn't be a big deal, you shouldn't notice it when it's good, it should be a commodity. I think this is kind of a problem for OS makers as they do need to keep tweaking the UI to improve it, but they also need to sell it and have to shout it from the rooftops.

fleabagmatt wrote:

As someone who is generally not a very hardcore user (Home machine is fairly casual use, although I do use it for graphic design work and some video editing work) what would the reasoning be for wanting to upgrade? I'm running Snow Leopard on my old iMac now. (Mid-2007, just barely makes the list). I do recall at the time there was some benefit in gaming performance that made me upgrade from Leopard to Snow Leopard that made me want to upgrade, otherwise I'm not sure if I would have noticed, really.

I see people getting so excited for new Operating Systems, not just Mac, and I don't necessarily see the benefit of wanting to do so.

Oh man, I wouldn't recommend it unless there's something you REALLY want, like the iPhone/icloud integration or improved Safari. I think people get really used to their OS and they don't like changing so much.

Personally I only used Snow Leopard for like 2 weeks and then Lion came out and I loved it, and now I kinda miss Lion because Mountain Lion is a bit different in a couple of things. But my brother was using Snow Leopard for years and he just hated the new OS that I loved because I was a newbie.

duckideva wrote:

So..of course, I just bought my first mac yesterday. (Macbook Air). Theoretically, I should get a free upgrade. Should I upgrade?

Yeah, if you're going to keep using it, I'd upgrade now before getting used to the old OS... There's only a couple of differences but why not.

Just don't mess with the iCloud settings until you're really comfortable with it, I accidentally put some, ehhh private photos and notes that were in my phone on my work laptop...

Hypatian wrote:
ibdoomed wrote:
Rykin wrote:
ibdoomed wrote:

Around 9:30 eastern, I submitted the three 'up-to-date' requests for the macs I've bought since 7/2 but no response to any of them yet. I will upgrade at least one immediately to see what's changed. Here's hoping they've fixed Mail's exchange problems.

Now if they could only fix Exchange's problems ;)

Yeah. I wish we could just use osx's server mail program.. oh wait... :ninja:

Er. You mean pretty much any mail server available for UNIX-based systems? (Most of them are free, just like Exchange... oh wait...)

And have an awesome AD integration.. oh wait...

ibdoomed wrote:

Around 9:30 eastern, I submitted the three 'up-to-date' requests for the macs I've bought since 7/2 but no response to any of them yet. I will upgrade at least one immediately to see what's changed. Here's hoping they've fixed Mail's exchange problems.

Over 24 hours and still waiting. Sigh. I've already started saying "no it's not here yet" when anyone even looks in my door.

So far so good, the only hiccup was not having Parallels up to date before the install. There's been nothing so far of the Spotlight or Time Machine level of revolution, but having Notes and Reminders, which I use all the time on my phone (and, logically, Notification Center), is a benefit. ML finally got me to sit down and get all my iCloud settings sorted out too.

The more refined handling of document auto-saving/iCloud etc would probably be something of note, if I still used my computer for creating a lot of documents. Thankfully I'm done with school, so that may never come up!

This will probably be the case like SL, where I'm poring over the features list to see how many changes I actually notice. But for $20, I'm very content.

duckideva wrote:

So..of course, I just bought my first mac yesterday. (Macbook Air). Theoretically, I should get a free upgrade. Should I upgrade?

(I'm still figuring out this silly thing. I hate how "closed garden" it is. Jesus, I could have rewritten the tcp/ip stack on a real computer in a quarter of the time to it took to get this one to accept a corrected wep key. Of course, I was already annoyed because of being immersed in the cloud of iSmug that permeates the Apple Store. )

Definitely upgrade, but wait a few weeks for any launch issues to be sorted out. No idea what problems you had with WiFi--it's always worked immediately for me. Beyond that I'd suggest just ordering hardware directly from Apple rather than going to the store. It's easier to get the exact configuration you want and you don't have to deal with the horde of people who always seems to fill the retail stores.

EDIT:

I just upgraded to Mountain Lion on one of my Macs and the process was totally painless. The only thing I've found so far that didn't work on reboot was some changed I'd made to the Apache configs--they were saved to a backup file and I had to reapply them. Oh, and I had to reinstall the XCode command-line tools. Um, and tkdiff wouldn't start, complaining about a missing DISPLAY config (probably something macports-related). Okay so three things

Ms. Goo purchased a MBA a couple weeks ago (our first Mac- great little machine, very impressed!) but still waiting for our ML code. 24 hrs and counting.

I assume they are being carved out of virgin rainforest timber by a team of trained bullfrogs or something.

Goo wrote:

Ms. Goo purchased a MBA a couple weeks ago (our first Mac- great little machine, very impressed!) but still waiting for our ML code. 24 hrs and counting.

I assume they are being carved out of virgin rainforest timber by a team of trained bullfrogs or something.

It's definitely not an automated process. I got my first of three at 6:02am this morning. That would be 46 hours or there about. Still waiting on the other 2 submitted seconds after the first, and who knows if this is response to the first submission since there's no serial number, or even model type (imac, mini or macbook) in the details of said email.

ibdoomed: Are you sure you need additional codes? Mac OS X has always been on the honor system for multiple-machine installations.

Yeah the license is for any Mac you own, as far as I know the only reason you would need multiple codes is if you use different apple ids for the app store on different Macs.