GAH! I Preordered SWTOR and need some form of validation!

gregrampage wrote:

Life's too short to spend it on a game you're not even really enjoying.

*sigh* I fear you are right, and my playtime in SWTOR will slowly dwindle as I lose interest for actual FUN games.

Why is this a sad thing for me? Because my brother and friends ARE enjoying SWTOR.

Valmorian wrote:

Why is this a sad thing for me? Because my brother and friends ARE enjoying SWTOR.

So what's the problem? At least for the moment.

The trick would seem to be recognising the point where you're paying a sub and not enjoying it, and jumping off.

Scratched wrote:
Valmorian wrote:

Why is this a sad thing for me? Because my brother and friends ARE enjoying SWTOR.

So what's the problem? At least for the moment.

The trick would seem to be recognising the point where you're paying a sub and not enjoying it, and jumping off.

Um, because I play with them? They won't play the sorts of multiplayer games I like. Too competitive.

Personally I think MMO's have damaged people's ability to accept loss in a game.

Valmorian wrote:

Personally I think MMO's have damaged people's ability to accept loss in a game.

I think people have damaged MMOs to where they no longer really entail losing or having losses. The first MMOs were much more brutal affairs with PvP everywhere, PK anywhere, player looting, level and skill loss. People simply couldn't handle them.

ZaneRockfist wrote:
Valmorian wrote:

Personally I think MMO's have damaged people's ability to accept loss in a game.

I think people have damaged MMOs to where they no longer really entail losing or having losses. The first MMOs were much more brutal affairs with PvP everywhere, PK anywhere, player looting, level and skill loss. People simply couldn't handle them.

except for the games that have that right now. Darkfall, Mortal Online, (some f2p one i cant remember), and upcoming Archage.

ranalin wrote:

except for the games that have that right now. Darkfall, Mortal Online, (some f2p one i cant remember), and upcoming Archage.

Which are all niche games that account for a very, very insignificant part of the MMO market.

ZaneRockfist wrote:
ranalin wrote:

except for the games that have that right now. Darkfall, Mortal Online, (some f2p one i cant remember), and upcoming Archage.

Which are all niche games that account for a very, very insignificant part of the MMO market.

AoC has fun & brutal PvP and is a little bigger than the MMOs Ran mentioned.

Mex wrote:

I hope this doesn't get moved to the MMO sub-forum, because - can we get some opinions about this game from people who generally don't play MMOs?

Thinking about jumping in, but I feel like MMO veterans might be jaded about the genre...

I have only played a few other mmo's and never to the lv cap or end game content. I've been really enjoying swtor. It helps I'm a star wars fan so being in that world is enjoyable. I'm also not taking the game too seriously. I'm lv 30 and have mostly played solo and have done no pvp. There are heroic quests you get that need 2-4 people and i mostly run those with pubbies and it has been fine. I like the story and that things are fully voiced. It keeps me engaged. Most of the mechanics are typical mmo but I'm not bored with them since I haven't played a lot of mmo's. I'm looking forward to trying some other classes to see what their stories are like.

ZaneRockfist wrote:

I think people have damaged MMOs to where they no longer really entail losing or having losses. The first MMOs were much more brutal affairs with PvP everywhere, PK anywhere, player looting, level and skill loss. People simply couldn't handle them.

You can have loss in combat without having a loss in equipment/items/xp. The thing I see is that 90%+ of all MMO combat ends up with the player winning. Hell, the vast majority of the time you never even drop below half health.

I actually think that the trinity in SWTOR is a fresh take. Because mostly its not tank and spank in melee range. Sure, there are melee opponents and some classes can close the gap or pull opponents in, but most are medium or long ranged and the trooper archetype is designed to withstand ranged fire.

Of course people are going to gravitate to what they are used to and later level group content may not exploit the exception, so YMMV. But solo questing with a companion offers a variety of successful avenues to explore in encounters.

I'm burned out on MMOG's and I still bought TOR.. its exactly what I suspected and I just play off and on a bit... I will keep an eye on the game as I probably will let my sub lapse once I get through my time cards.. I do think that a "Space Expansion" might be the trick to really turn this game into something special.. Tie Fighter in an MMOG environment would be right up my alley.. or even better Privateer in a MMOG world with a meaningful and dynamic economy would be special.

Valmorian wrote:

You can have loss in combat without having a loss in equipment/items/xp. The thing I see is that 90%+ of all MMO combat ends up with the player winning. Hell, the vast majority of the time you never even drop below half health.

Huh? What MMOs are you playing? obviously your 90% is hyperbole, but even that aside if you really feel that way and not just trying to trash a genre you don't like, I am guinely confused as I play almost every MMO that comes out and feel the exact opposite about the genre. Dungeons, Raids, PVP, you generally learn what to do by failing and dieing.

WiredAsylum wrote:

Huh? What MMOs are you playing? obviously your 90% is hyperbole, but even that aside if you really feel that way and not just trying to trash a genre you don't like, I am guinely confused as I play almost every MMO that comes out and feel the exact opposite about the genre. Dungeons, Raids, PVP, you generally learn what to do by failing and dieing.

No, actually, I don't think my 90% IS hyperbole. In every modern MMO I've played the vast majority of combats have been against creatures which are grossly inferior to my character and I will win 90%+ of the time. Honestly. How many times did you die in WoW in the first, say 30 levels? Consider each death and compare it with the number of creatures you've killed.

My WoW character has the following ratio 18,280 to 388, working that out it means I've died ~%2 of the time in my combats with mobs.

Valmorian wrote:
WiredAsylum wrote:

Huh? What MMOs are you playing? obviously your 90% is hyperbole, but even that aside if you really feel that way and not just trying to trash a genre you don't like, I am guinely confused as I play almost every MMO that comes out and feel the exact opposite about the genre. Dungeons, Raids, PVP, you generally learn what to do by failing and dieing.

No, actually, I don't think my 90% IS hyperbole. In every modern MMO I've played the vast majority of combats have been against creatures which are grossly inferior to my character and I will win 90%+ of the time. Honestly. How many times did you die in WoW in the first, say 30 levels? Consider each death and compare it with the number of creatures you've killed.

My WoW character has the following ratio 18,280 to 388, working that out it means I've died ~%2 of the time in my combats with mobs.

OK if you want to count minions and trash mobs, look at half life, COD, or whatever fps de jur has your current fancy and do the same math. You slaughter trash minions by the thousands in COD with out dieing. So are they just as terrible as MMOs?

Now talk PC to boss and player to player.

Valmorian wrote:
WiredAsylum wrote:

Huh? What MMOs are you playing? obviously your 90% is hyperbole, but even that aside if you really feel that way and not just trying to trash a genre you don't like, I am guinely confused as I play almost every MMO that comes out and feel the exact opposite about the genre. Dungeons, Raids, PVP, you generally learn what to do by failing and dieing.

No, actually, I don't think my 90% IS hyperbole. In every modern MMO I've played the vast majority of combats have been against creatures which are grossly inferior to my character and I will win 90%+ of the time. Honestly. How many times did you die in WoW in the first, say 30 levels? Consider each death and compare it with the number of creatures you've killed.

My WoW character has the following ratio 18,280 to 388, working that out it means I've died ~%2 of the time in my combats with mobs.

Then you may need to revise this to say current WoW instead of current MMOs. I died more times i can count on my way up to 30 in WoW, but that was at launch.

SWTOR is the first mmo that's launched that i thought things were too easy. Even then i died way more than 2% on my way to 50.

I also play what some would call hard core mmos and it's impossible to not die multiple times in a day.

I think we might be getting off topic here.

While personal experiences and tastes can differ, I'd rather you guys didn't devolve into an argument about the basics of MMO mechanics. But I'm not a mod, so have at it. I just didn't want things to get all internet-ragey over what amounts to a 'YMMV' issue.

The long and the short of it is this, TOR is a WoW-model MMO with some good story lines, a ton of voice acting and a few changes to existing systems. The core game play is basically the same.

Thus if you're sick of games that play like WoW, you're going to get sick of the game play in TOR. Unless of course, you are a star wars or bioware nerd and the story is enough to get you through.

For me, I was never a big fan of that style of game play, it's kind of boring.

"But penguin," you say, "You've been playing WoW for the last year and you're the friggin' Sith GM in TOR! How can you say you don't like that game play?"

Well, good question, fictional question asker! I stick around because I'm enjoying the story and because I love the people I play with. I signed up for a year of WoW, knowing we were having a baby 6 months into it, because I wanted to keep hanging out with my guildies. The second M of MMO is why I stick around, that's my focus.

So Val, if the game play isn't doing it for you and you don't have anything else to hang your hat on, I'm sorry. I wish I could validate your purchase for you especially considering how much I'm personally enjoying it. No one likes to throw away $60. But if there's one thing I've learned from buying just about every fighting game that's been released in the last decade and then both being crap at it and because of that only playing it twice, it's that sometimes you need to take that $60 hit to remind yourself to stop buying games in a genre you don't like. As much as I'd like to "hope" that a game will click for me like Tekken did waaaaay back in the day, I realized that the chance was so remote I needed to stop spending my money until I got some hands on time =)

Looking back over your posts, Val, it seems like you know what you want and you feel a social pressure to keep playing because people you know continue to play it. Been there and it sucks. My solution was simply to not participate and as a consequence have yet to get through the TERRIBLE first town of NWN2.

So good luck, sir. I wish you the best of luck in your future gaming choices.

oilypenguin wrote:

I think we might be getting off topic here.

While personal experiences and tastes can differ, I'd rather you guys didn't devolve into an argument about the basics of MMO mechanics. But I'm not a mod, so have at it. I just didn't want things to get all internet-ragey over what amounts to a 'YMMV' issue.

Hear, hear.

(Wait, you're the Sith GM? Aren't you supposed to tell everyone that losing an argument online is for losers? Don't go being all awesome, Oily. I can't afford the time to run an alt...)

There are lots of story "boss" encounters in SWTOR where I have died. And that is even with a companion.

Around a quarter of the time I don't realize I am about to fight a story "boss" so I start fighting him and his hidden underlings kill me before I can get the "boss" down to 1/4 hp. So I respawn and kill off the underlings first and then probably die before I can pop a hp potion or even despite popping a hp potion. So I respawn and kill the "boss" without much difficulty because he has no helpers plucking away at me.

This same scenario happens with regular fights too. Either I am fighting 3 and another 3 respawns behind me or my companion. Or I am fighting 3 and focus on the guy with mega hit points rather than picking off his minions first.

In other words, I die a lot in SWTOR with just regular questing.

ranalin wrote:

Then you may need to revise this to say current WoW instead of current MMOs. I died more times i can count on my way up to 30 in WoW, but that was at launch.

SWTOR is the first mmo that's launched that i thought things were too easy. Even then i died way more than 2% on my way to 50.

I also play what some would call hard core mmos and it's impossible to not die multiple times in a day.

The character that I am citing I started at launch. Virtually every MMO I've played is the same with regard to character death.

WiredAsylum wrote:

OK if you want to count minions and trash mobs, look at half life, COD, or whatever fps de jur has your current fancy and do the same math. You slaughter trash minions by the thousands in COD with out dieing. So are they just as terrible as MMOs?

Now talk PC to boss and player to player.

Well of course, that's my point. My friends won't play TF2 because it's "too competitive". Same with any multiplayer game. They also don't play PvP in MMOs, nor do they do raid bosses.

They're not alone in this. There's a lot of people for whom games are an escape and one in which while there is the illusion of challenge, the challenge really isn't that great at all.

oilypenguin wrote:

Looking back over your posts, Val, it seems like you know what you want and you feel a social pressure to keep playing because people you know continue to play it. Been there and it sucks. My solution was simply to not participate and as a consequence have yet to get through the TERRIBLE first town of NWN2.

This is it pretty much in a nutshell. All of my friends and family who are interested in video games are primarily interested in games with heavy story and/or MMOs. This gets into my other pet theory, that games suffer for story and vice versa. That is, the more story there is in a game, the less of a "game" it becomes.

But I suspect that would raise even more ire.

How about you get your friends to move to Keller's Void and you all join one of our two guilds?

It sounds like you would like to do some of the more challenging content or pvp but your friends are very casual. Each of the GWJ guilds carter to both playstyles and we often have pvp groups running and will soon be raiding as well.

I've died quite a few times already. To regular enemies sometimes. I'm only level 12 too. :/

Well, I didn't even make it the full month. I am SO done with MMO mechanics. You know it's a bad sign when you are falling asleep while in combat and you still win.

I'm starting to struggle with interest, as well. The lack of challenge, the push-button "go here, win this, win that, move on" mechanics, and the utterly vapid combat are all pretty damning. The story and character development remain interesting.

TheHipGamer wrote:

I'm starting to struggle with interest, as well. The lack of challenge, the push-button "go here, win this, win that, move on" mechanics, and the utterly vapid combat are all pretty damning. The story and character development remain interesting.

Dont get the vapid combat part... Every time im in a FP or Op or for that matter a pvp match im in awe at how it's always fun to watch and almost always different.

ranalin wrote:
TheHipGamer wrote:

I'm starting to struggle with interest, as well. The lack of challenge, the push-button "go here, win this, win that, move on" mechanics, and the utterly vapid combat are all pretty damning. The story and character development remain interesting.

Dont get the vapid combat part... Every time im in a FP or Op or for that matter a pvp match im in awe at how it's always fun to watch and almost always different.

I've not tried PVP -- I generally don't care for it -- so perhaps that's what's missing. In the single-player missions, it's usually "walk into this room, click the same 5 buttons 500x until all the enemies are dead, move on". Maybe that's an MMO-specific thing, but compared to games like Sykrim, Dark Souls, or heck, KOTOR? It's very, very dry.

TheHipGamer wrote:
ranalin wrote:
TheHipGamer wrote:

I'm starting to struggle with interest, as well. The lack of challenge, the push-button "go here, win this, win that, move on" mechanics, and the utterly vapid combat are all pretty damning. The story and character development remain interesting.

Dont get the vapid combat part... Every time im in a FP or Op or for that matter a pvp match im in awe at how it's always fun to watch and almost always different.

I've not tried PVP -- I generally don't care for it -- so perhaps that's what's missing. In the single-player missions, it's usually "walk into this room, click the same 5 buttons 500x until all the enemies are dead, move on". Maybe that's an MMO-specific thing, but compared to games like Sykrim, Dark Souls, or heck, KOTOR? It's very, very dry.

You can play it that way but you're not very effective, and while i havnt played Dark Souls yet Skyrim and KOTOR combat plays very much the same way. You use the best skill you have depending on the amount of resource pool you have for the situation at hand. Rinse/Repeat. The difference i see is that the animations we have from SWTOR are a lot more fluid and change depending on your surroundings. Which makes the Rinse/Repeat part more enjoyable for me and keeps it from the vapid category.

ranalin wrote:

Every time im in a FP or Op or for that matter a pvp match im in awe at how it's always fun to watch and almost always different.

I used to do some PvP in MMOs but found that gear and level mattered far too much. If I lose in a PvP battle in TF2 I know it's because the player I'm up against outplayed me, or I made a fatal mistake in how I played. In an MMO that CAN happen if we are relatively equally matched, but I have been on both sides of the "Die because your equipment/level is inferior" problem in MMOs and it's harmful to the fun for me.

Valmorian wrote:
ranalin wrote:

Every time im in a FP or Op or for that matter a pvp match im in awe at how it's always fun to watch and almost always different.

I used to do some PvP in MMOs but found that gear and level mattered far too much. If I lose in a PvP battle in TF2 I know it's because the player I'm up against outplayed me, or I made a fatal mistake in how I played. In an MMO that CAN happen if we are relatively equally matched, but I have been on both sides of the "Die because your equipment/level is inferior" problem in MMOs and it's harmful to the fun for me.

With the seperation of level 50s (first level that allows expertise gear) from everyone else that problem goes away in SWTOR.