Vinnie: Merry Fencemas!

Yonder, that's pretty macabre, even by my standards.

MrDeVil909 wrote:

Yonder, that's pretty macabre, even by my standards.

I thought it was hilarious.

ZaneRockfist wrote:
MrDeVil909 wrote:

Yonder, that's pretty macabre, even by my standards.

I thought it was hilarious.

Well, yes. It was, still pretty gruesome for some though. Won't you think of the children? :p

If they came into her yard to play, by rushing under the fence, exactly what purpose did the fence serve? Was this her normal practice, then? She lets her dogs just burrow under fences to *play* with other dogs? Who taught them that? Why was it allowed?

There are all *kinds* of problems with that argument given the premise is that the neighbor had control of her dogs at all times. (Really? She had control when they went under the fence, and was not worried that they had breached something meant to contain them? Really?)

Also, "play" implies both sides were comfortable with it. If that were the case, why was the fence even needed? Did they ever come play at SR's? In the house maybe? Take walks together? Surely if it were play, then the dogs had a history of being comfortable with each other...

That dog don't hunt...

SillyRabbit, I hope Vinnie is continuing to heal.

As for all their lawsuit shenanigans: you have been blessed with stupid enemies. Be thankful.

I get the impression that, at least on some level, the neighbors must be aware that they are screwed and that their explanation of the events are straight up full retard. I also get the impression that they are flailing for an explanation that doesn't reflect the fact that they are complete and utter irresponsible asshats.

Yeah. The fact that you apparently (IIRC) have reports from other neighbours saying that their dogs were attacked should put to lie the "they just wanted to play" theory.

In talking with other "dog people", the common consensus seems to be, as distasteful as it is, that these dogs should be put down. The violence that they have displayed makes it unlikely that the ACO will have much choice.

SillyRabbit wrote:

Vinnie continues to do well. I go up twice a day and sit in his run, give him treats, rub his nose and tell him how good he is and how many people are pulling for him. I get a few tail wags and kisses, then he lays down and starts to doze off. :)

Great! I hope he continues to get better and that you and your other dogs are doing alright.

Paleocon wrote:

I get the impression that, at least on some level, the neighbors must be aware that they are screwed and that their explanation of the events are straight up full retard. I also get the impression that they are flailing for an explanation that doesn't reflect the fact that they are complete and utter irresponsible asshats.

Never go full retard. You just don't do it...

Ballotechnic wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I get the impression that, at least on some level, the neighbors must be aware that they are screwed and that their explanation of the events are straight up full retard. I also get the impression that they are flailing for an explanation that doesn't reflect the fact that they are complete and utter irresponsible asshats.

Never go full retard. You just don't do it...

That goes without saying.

IMAGE(http://www.obsessedwithfilm.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/simple-jack.jpg)

Paleocon wrote:

I get the impression that, at least on some level, the neighbors must be aware that they are screwed and that their explanation of the events are straight up full retard. I also get the impression that they are flailing for an explanation that doesn't reflect the fact that they are complete and utter irresponsible asshats.

Yeah, this is the sense I get. I just hope the fact that they're straight up lying in a legal/criminal proceeding comes back to bite them in the ass.

Quintin_Stone wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I get the impression that, at least on some level, the neighbors must be aware that they are screwed and that their explanation of the events are straight up full retard. I also get the impression that they are flailing for an explanation that doesn't reflect the fact that they are complete and utter irresponsible asshats.

Yeah, this is the sense I get. I just hope the fact that they're straight up lying in a legal/criminal proceeding comes back to bite them in the ass.

The problem with their "defense" is that since they are so obviously in the wrong, if they have a chance at all it's by composing themselves as responsible people that understand they have made a big mistake and are going to do anything in their power to remedy it and get their dogs under control. It's possible that going that route may have let them keep two of the three dogs. As is they are being irresponsible liars avoiding the consequences of their actions, and the actions of their pets. The fact that they actually think that's the better way to go is mind-boggling.

Yonder wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I get the impression that, at least on some level, the neighbors must be aware that they are screwed and that their explanation of the events are straight up full retard. I also get the impression that they are flailing for an explanation that doesn't reflect the fact that they are complete and utter irresponsible asshats.

Yeah, this is the sense I get. I just hope the fact that they're straight up lying in a legal/criminal proceeding comes back to bite them in the ass.

The problem with their "defense" is that since they are so obviously in the wrong, if they have a chance at all it's by composing themselves as responsible people that understand they have made a big mistake and are going to do anything in their power to remedy it and get their dogs under control. It's possible that going that route may have let them keep two of the three dogs. As is they are being irresponsible liars avoiding the consequences of their actions, and the actions of their pets. The fact that they actually think that's the better way to go is mind-boggling.

I imagine it is an easier space to be psychologically for them. No one wants to think of themselves as the bad guy and some folks just can't seem to handle it even when the truth hits them with monster truck force.

I know people get antsy in long threads but settle it down please, guys.

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment.

It is entirely possible that the next-door neighbours really believe that the dogs were playing until Vinnie "started it".

I know that my old dog and his mother (they were shih-tzu/min. Schnauzer mixes) played rough enough that people seriously though that the mother was trying to kill her son. The sounds that they would make while playing, to the unfamiliar, were close enough to what you imagine it sounds like (and looks like) when one dog tries to kill another that it could *easily* be mistaken for something else.

Now, if the family next door is sure, with 100% certainty, that their dogs are the friendliest dogs in the world, and they just want to play, and they aren't familiar with dogs, or only came across the aftermath or when the fight had already started, it is not a difficult leap to make to get to "Vinnie started it. My dogs just wanted to play."

mudbunny wrote:

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment.

It is entirely possible that the next-door neighbours really believe that the dogs were playing until Vinnie "started it".

I know that my old dog and his mother (they were shih-tzu/min. Schnauzer mixes) played rough enough that people seriously though that the mother was trying to kill her son. The sounds that they would make while playing, to the unfamiliar, were close enough to what you imagine it sounds like (and looks like) when one dog tries to kill another that it could *easily* be mistaken for something else.

Now, if the family next door is sure, with 100% certainty, that their dogs are the friendliest dogs in the world, and they just want to play, and they aren't familiar with dogs, or only came across the aftermath or when the fight had already started, it is not a difficult leap to make to get to "Vinnie started it. My dogs just wanted to play."

That would be a difficult case to make even if all the dogs were at a neutral spot like the dog park. The fact that this assault happened in SR's yard pretty much puts the lie to that idea entirely. Like I said, it sounds about as credible as a well-known break in crew claiming that they busted down your door so they could fix your television set.

SR should have the law on her side. In her original post -"I spoke with the neighbor about tying down the fence so it couldn't be gone under like that again, he said he would take care of it and we both agreed to make every effort to be sure the dogs weren't out at the same time." Seems to me that this shows intent, history of aggression by the other dogs, acceptance that the pitbulls were dangerous by the owners and the need to separate the dogs. I wouldn't worry to much SR. Make sure you have your info documented. Good luck with dealing with the morons.

Thank you all for all your comments, I have a couple of updates.

First, Vinnie's temp was up a little this morning, which had me worried and he had a shiny new hole in his leg. When they took him out to clean his wounds, there was some dead tissue that had to be removed from the worst site of injury. This left a pretty big hole that shocked me pretty good. I won't get graphic but I later joked with the Dr and tech, 'you could lose your car keys in that hole" they actually laughed. He still got up and wagged his tail and gave me kisses, he ate while I was there, drank a good amount of water and was able to relax. Seemed like he was doing well in spite of it all. I was able to talk to the doc on my afternoon visit, she gave me the good news that his temp was back to normal. She said the tissue death wasn't a big surprise to her, but it is a continuing concern, could be more of it. There was a lot of muscle missing when he came in, and they did their best to 'tack down' the remaining tissue hoping it would get the blood flow it needs to survive. This is going to be an ongoing concern for several weeks as he heals. Things that aren't healing have to be removed so he won't become toxic. They're using something that encourages the growth of granular tissue, eventually the wounds will heal if that granular tissue grows healthy. I'm sure our resident docs/techs know exactly what I'm talking about even though I may not be completely accurate in my summary. Bottom line, this tough little dog still has a long way to go. But, he's doing really well considering what he's going through. And he's just sweet and quiet and calm. He hasn't uttered a sound since he's been there. I'm glad he's focusing his energy on healing.

Secondly, I had a chance encounter with the neighbors last night. I have not wanted to have any interaction with them and really have been avoiding them. But, I was in the yard with Josie on her leash, they came out in their back yard (no, I didn't invite them to play!). When I looked over, she waved and smiled, I waved and started making my way back up to the house to go inside. She came over to the fence and ask how Vinnie was, I gave her an update, asked how her arms were, she showed me her wounds. I didn't get a good look, she raised them in front of her and turned them over a few times and put them back down. She then says, very sweetly and humbly, and I paraphrase "I know how these wounds happened, I know why ... we spoke to the Co. Atty today and he told us that since our dogs came on to your property, probably nothing would happen except we'd be responsible for your vet bills, and we could have your dog put down, but I don't want that, I just want my dogs to come home". I just played it cool and didn't respond. About that time it thundered and Josie kind of tensed up and the man asked her if she was afraid of storms too and I said "She never was before, now she's afraid of everything, we all are, we are absolutely traumatized" and I looked at the girl, straight in the eye, and said "you and I saw the same thing, I know you have to be traumatized too" and she admitted that she was, then repeated she just wanted her dogs to come home. I said "I understand, I do" and told them I needed to get josie in the house.

So, don't everybody get too upset, I'm not posting for outrage, but just to let you know what I'm dealing with here. I assume she's, at best, exaggerating what she was told or, at worst, out and out lying that she was told she could have my dog put down. In my head I don't think I have to worry about that happening, in my heart I feel like Vinnie's life lies in the balance on two fronts. I think I have a line on a good atty. Wish me luck.

Glad to to hear that Vinnie is making progress, and more importantly is getting opportunities to show you some love (as well as you to him). It sounds like he is in great hands.

I'm also really impressed with just how well you are handling all of this. I think the high ground, by not aggressively making enemies out of your neighbors is really the right way to go long term. It seems like there is a good chance that they really won't get their dogs back. As violent and aggressive as they seem to be, it is a sad situation when anybody loses their pets.

From what I can tell, you have gone about this in a very fair way, and allowing the system to work will probably be in your best interest right now. Since these are your neighbors, aggressively trying to have their dogs put down could make for really rough times ahead. But if you let it play out, and that is the result, hopefully it will minimize the strain there. Overall, I'm just really impressed with how well you are dealing with this. It's so easy to get worked up for vengeance. It takes a pretty good soul to be a sympathetic as you have been to your neighbors.

I hope everything works out the best for everyone involved.

Thank you for the words of support Jayhawker, I'm really trying to hold it together. I'm a huge animal rescue advocate and have spoken out against the persecution of pit bulls. It hurts my soul to be in the position I'm in. But, it is what it is. I've been talking to all kinds of people to try to get a full picture of what can/should happen.

mudbunny wrote:

I know that my old dog and his mother (they were shih-tzu/min. Schnauzer mixes) played rough enough that people seriously though that the mother was trying to kill her son. The sounds that they would make while playing, to the unfamiliar, were close enough to what you imagine it sounds like (and looks like) when one dog tries to kill another that it could *easily* be mistaken for something else.

I just wanted to comment on this because my three dogs play this way together too. They make the most horrible noises, barking, growling, snarling. I've joked that it sounds like they're killing each other. None of my dogs has ever had even the slightest injury from these play sessions. From the moment these dogs came into the yard, I never heard a bark or growl, the only sounds any of the dogs made was Vinnie's whimpers and screams toward the end of the battle when he was nearly killed. The silence of the attack is remarkable to me. It wasn't total silence, I was screaming for help as was the neighbor chick, and we were screaming at each other as we tried to work together to break this up, the dogs were pretty much silent, intent on what they were doing as a pack. This was never about playing.

SillyRabbit wrote:

From the moment these dogs came into the yard, I never heard a bark or growl, the only sounds any of the dogs made was Vinnie's whimpers and screams toward the end of the battle when he was nearly killed. The silence of the attack is remarkable to me. It wasn't total silence, I was screaming for help as was the neighbor chick, and we were screaming at each other as we tried to work together to break this up, the dogs were pretty much silent, intent on what they were doing as a pack. This was never about playing.

In some of the background reading I was doing for the "Ban the Breed" thread I remember this coming up. One of the dangerous things about pits is they can become intensely aggressive and attack with no warning signs. A German Shepard by contrast, might give a light bite, growl, put its ears back, etc to display danger. Perhaps even more unsettling than loud aggression.

You're a better person than me SR, if this happened to my dog I don't think I'd settle for anything less than the pits being put down.

Paleocon wrote:

I get the impression that, at least on some level, the neighbors must be aware that they are screwed and that their explanation of the events are straight up full retard. I also get the impression that they are flailing for an explanation that doesn't reflect the fact that they are complete and utter irresponsible asshats.

My guess is she knew husband would be upset with her and didn't tell him the full truth either, at least not at first.

Hope doggy keeps doing OK...

I wonder if your neighbour really has a leg to stand on. The reason dogs are put down after attacking a human is because a dog that attacks a person is likely to attack a person again. Your dog didn't attack a person. Your dog was being attacked by three dogs and was snapping at anything it could to save its life. Even if your neighbour can prove that your dog bit her and not hers, can she really prove that your dog is likely to attack a person in the future?

The fact that you say your traumatized can actually work in your favour. You may be able to sue for emotional damage beyond just vet bills if you want to go that far.

Ballotechnic wrote:

You're a better person than me SR, if this happened to my dog I don't think I'd settle for anything less than the pits being put down.

Agreed. I still advocate taking them to the cleaners, but I am nothing if not impressed with how well you're handling this. Keep it up, this is going to be along fight.

Ah I see what they are doing here. They aren't actually planning on pressing the whole "Vinnie bit me and needs to be put down" thing, because they know that if they go to court they will be screwed. They are using it as a bluff to scare you out of wanting this thing to go to court.

Yonder wrote:

Ah I see what they are doing here. They aren't actually planning on pressing the whole "Vinnie bit me and needs to be put down" thing, because they know that if they go to court they will be screwed. They are using it as a bluff to scare you out of wanting this thing to go to court.

*ding*

I would be very suspicious of their motives, but I suspect it's too late. Once someone has gone to the authorities it's tough to stop the train.

They haven't got a leg to stand on. Prior history of aggressive behavior, a simple comparison of dental patterns will prove which dog did the biting (ask your vet), repeated history of trespass onto your property. What they can do is intimidate you, which is what she was going for with the 'we can have your dog put down' line. Avoiding contact with the neighbors is definitely a good idea. Good luck and best wishes, its going to get ugly before its over, your neighbors come across as self-centered idiots that won't hesitate to play dirty.

Not having any legal advice to offer, I just want to let you know that I'm hoping for the best for you and Vinnie.

Yonder wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

do tazers work on dogs?

Probably, and that seems like a much better option than a gun (to me, with no gun experience).

It seems to me that with fast moving dogs in a situation like this a novice shooter would be as likely to shoot their own dog instead of or in addition to the attacking dogs (although hollowpoint rounds drastically reduce this risk). I also would be very very worried about your neighbor's reaction to you pulling a gun on her dogs. Seems like it would be likely for her to get in between you and her dogs, or try to wrestle it from you, or other similar ridiculousness.

From what I recall of non-lethal force training, tasers and OC spray are both "less than effective" against non-human targets. Tasers tend to be the better of the two, but both have a roughly equal chance of just pissing the target off. To that end, and while I'm way late, I'd suggest sticking to something along the lines of aluminum bat or e-tool.

mudbunny wrote:

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment. [edited for space!]

I dunno, wouldn't that be like a bunch of pyromaniacs playing hide-and-seek at a gas station, and then a pack of matches walks in saying "Boy it's warm! Who wants to play Boggle?"