Vinnie: Merry Fencemas!

Another point in your favor, then. Your dogs never were adequately protected.

Too bad you can't put razor wire on top of the fence, that would take the steam out of their attempts to scale it.

Ballotechnic wrote:

Too bad you can't put razor wire on top of the fence, that would take the steam out of their attempts to scale it.

Yeah, but they were going under it, so you'd need land mines too.

SillyRabbit wrote:

I keep thinking about what TheCounselor said:

TheCounselor wrote:

The County Attorney does not represent you. He or she isn't going to press charges against her dogs for attacking your dog, and they can't press charges against her because you weren't attacked. .... If they want to charge someone, it's most likely going to be you because of her story, and you'll have to prove that she's lying at a trial. That's no easy task, no matter what the situation.

So, how then could they press charges against me when she was not attacked? When she went to the hospital with a dog bite, they had to report it. In the police report she states that her dogs got into the neighbor's yard and got in a fight with the neighbor's dog ... while trying to break up the fight, she was repeatedly bit by the neighbor's dog. While this is a lie, because I'm sure it was her own dog that bit her (and repeatedly equals exactly twice), this still does not amount to her being attacked.

I'm not trying to ask a rhetorical question, I truly want some insight to this. I feel this going to be a damn important decision of whether to go to the Co. Atty and ask for confiscation of the dogs, which is what I'm being encouraged to do, or just go talk to an attorney and end up fighting a possible confiscation of Vinnie just because of this:

Mudbunny wrote:

When dealing with bureaucracies, important to get the momentum on your side first. Also, as a rule, bureaucracies care little for who is righth or not. They care simply for following the rules established for them to follow.

. Which I find all too easy to believe.

I feel like I'm taking a risk no matter what.

I skimmed through most of the thread. I would suggest you get consult with a private attorney first and bring as much information with you as possible when you do, like vet bills from both visits, statements, pictures. I doubt that being first to talk to the prosecutor will make a difference. What will make a difference is the person with the most convincing info and the person who can communicate those to the prosecutor. Having an attorney who will know what info the prosecutor will look for and who can communicate that in legal terms is best.

That just addresses potential criminal aspects of the case. You need to see if there are civil remedies. Most of this will depend on the laws of the state you are in, but it sounds like you have the facts on your side, specifically:

They were on your property. Your neighbor would not have been bitten if she didn't have to come on your property because she could control her dogs.

Your neighbors indicated they would take steps to prevent an attack, by securing the fence. They created an reasonable expectation that you and your dog would be safe on your property. She was injured because you relied on the expectation they created.

Basically any injury she sustained was due to her own fault. Any injury you and your dog sustained was due to their fault. The biggest issue is going to be costs. This sounds like it would end up in small claims court and most small claims cases don't have attorneys because the attorney fees eat up most if not all of any potential damage awards.

In regards to:

Mudbunny wrote:

When dealing with bureaucracies, important to get the momentum on your side first. Also, as a rule, bureaucracies care little for who is righth or not. They care simply for following the rules established for them to follow.

.

I find this a little offensive, though I understand no offense was intended. I am an attorney who works for a state bureaucracy, specifically child protective services, and I don't think this is the norm. I don't pursue cases because someone came to us first or because of arbitrary guidelines. Due to professional ethics as an attorney and based on the seriousness of the cases I handle, I regularly review the evidence and information I get to assure that I'm pursuing legitimate cases.

SillyRabbit wrote:

So, how then could they press charges against me when she was not attacked? When she went to the hospital with a dog bite, they had to report it. In the police report she states that her dogs got into the neighbor's yard and got in a fight with the neighbor's dog ... while trying to break up the fight, she was repeatedly bit by the neighbor's dog. While this is a lie, because I'm sure it was her own dog that bit her (and repeatedly equals exactly twice), this still does not amount to her being attacked.

While it would be next to impossible to prove which dog actually bit her, it is her word which rarely holds up in court. At best if she were to hope to win it would be in an out of court settlement. What I think would ruin her case is the fact that she went in and tried to separate 4 dogs in a non-submissive state. It is like going and petting a grizzley bear. You are guarenteed to get bit. She obviously determined the risk of being bit was worth it to get her dogs off of your dogs, and it was her judgement call. She knew that if her dogs killed your dogs she would be in big trouble. She already knows she is in big trouble which is why she is deflecting the issue to her arm.

IUMogg wrote:

I find this a little offensive, though I understand no offense was intended. I am an attorney who works for a state bureaucracy, specifically child protective services, and I don't think this is the norm. I don't pursue cases because someone came to us first or because of arbitrary guidelines. Due to professional ethics as an attorney and based on the seriousness of the cases I handle, I regularly review the evidence and information I get to assure that I'm pursuing legitimate cases.

Professionalism isn't necessarily the norm in government work. I've seen plenty of crappy service from government agencies that would have gotten a person fired in a heartbeat at a normal company. And there are plenty of DA that will push a case that is horribly hopeless: Duke Lacross spring to mind immediately.

SillyRabbit,
About the differences in behavior of your "pack" and the neighbors, the pits weren't doing normal domestic dog things, it sound a lot like they were hunting, not merely establishing dominance (dominance fights generally don't go that far unless both animals are very aggressive and evenly matched) or protecting their territory.

Yeah, I just want to reemphasize lawyering up. You need an attorney and paperwork filed by noon. Do not let this wait. Do not let this go to the end of a business day. Take time off work if you need to. Time is of the essence, and the faster you move, the more it will benefit you. When all is said and done, you are in the right, and they have no recourse. Destroy them.

Best wishes and speedy recovery to Vinnie!

kazar wrote:
SillyRabbit wrote:

So, how then could they press charges against me when she was not attacked? When she went to the hospital with a dog bite, they had to report it. In the police report she states that her dogs got into the neighbor's yard and got in a fight with the neighbor's dog ... while trying to break up the fight, she was repeatedly bit by the neighbor's dog. While this is a lie, because I'm sure it was her own dog that bit her (and repeatedly equals exactly twice), this still does not amount to her being attacked.

While it would be next to impossible to prove which dog actually bit her, it is her word which rarely holds up in court. At best if she were to hope to win it would be in an out of court settlement. What I think would ruin her case is the fact that she went in and tried to separate 4 dogs in a non-submissive state. It is like going and petting a grizzley bear. You are guarenteed to get bit. She obviously determined the risk of being bit was worth it to get her dogs off of your dogs, and it was her judgement call. She knew that if her dogs killed your dogs she would be in big trouble. She already knows she is in big trouble which is why she is deflecting the issue to her arm.

I'm not sure it would be that difficult to determine which dog bit her. The physical evidence is certainly there and the difference between a pit bull bite and a bite from a smaller breed would be pretty evident by the bite patterns. No bite pattern = no injury.

I wouldn't waste time though. Get your lawyer to subpoena pictures of her wounds.

TheCounselor wrote:
Ballotechnic wrote:

Too bad you can't put razor wire on top of the fence, that would take the steam out of their attempts to scale it.

Yeah, but they were going under it, so you'd need land mines too.

Razor wire/barbed tape strung between the posts 2-4 inches below ground and buried....

When someone suggested an invisible fence that stops dogs were they referring to an M16 planted on the property line wired to a motion sensor?

Blue Puma wrote:
TheCounselor wrote:
Ballotechnic wrote:

Too bad you can't put razor wire on top of the fence, that would take the steam out of their attempts to scale it.

Yeah, but they were going under it, so you'd need land mines too.

Razor wire/barbed tape strung between the posts 2-4 inches below ground and buried....

An important question, is the fence on the property line or off? If it's offset within the neighbor's yard, it's going to be up to the neighbor to mess with it.

do tazers work on dogs?

Paleocon wrote:

do tazers work on dogs?

Probably, and that seems like a much better option than a gun (to me, with no gun experience).

It seems to me that with fast moving dogs in a situation like this a novice shooter would be as likely to shoot their own dog instead of or in addition to the attacking dogs (although hollowpoint rounds drastically reduce this risk). I also would be very very worried about your neighbor's reaction to you pulling a gun on her dogs. Seems like it would be likely for her to get in between you and her dogs, or try to wrestle it from you, or other similar ridiculousness.

My parents were both farm kids. My dad worked with cattle his entire youth. So they first catagorize animals as Useful or Not Useful. Admittedly, they find cute, loyal dogs in the Useful catagory. We even had a Cocker Spaniel for several years. That being said, there were a few things they taught their kids as general knowlege about animals. Always keep an eye on bulls, don't ever let strays in the house, and always assume a pitbull is mean. They really had a bias against pitbulls because, more often than not, pitbulls were mean and aggressive.

I say get yourself an attorney and explore options. There's no way the county would side with you neighbor on this if you put up a decent defense. The photos would speak for themselves. Its like a bully telling a teacher the nerd he was hitting bruised his knuckles on purpose and should get detention for it.

Grenn wrote:

Its like a bully telling a teacher the nerd he was hitting bruised his knuckles on purpose and should get detention for it.

That sounds reasonable. Broken capillaries are no joke.

Silly Rabbit, I'm sorry to hear about Vinnie and hope that he's able to recover...how is he feeling today?

Do your neighbors rent or own? When their homeowners/renters insurer gets wind of this incident/history their costs will sky rocket. And I'd bet you a bag of donuts that they found a "friendly" vet to list the dogs as Boxers or instead of Pits just to keep the insurer in the dark. Happens all the time.

Unfortunately the pitbulls will most certainly be put down. Dogs that show that level of aggression and pack mentality need complete isolation in order to have somewhat "normal" lives. But the organizations that can provide that are few and far between and already inundated with requests to take more in.

A friend of mine got a pit in a rescue years ago. It got along fine with the family and their other dog for 8 years. Then when the other dog got old, out of the blue, the pit just up and murdered it. While out on a walk and completely unprovoked, the pit latched itself onto its neck and snapped it.

A companion it shared food with and slept with for 8 years.

Yonder wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

do tazers work on dogs?

Probably, and that seems like a much better option than a gun (to me, with no gun experience).

It seems to me that with fast moving dogs in a situation like this a novice shooter would be as likely to shoot their own dog instead of or in addition to the attacking dogs (although hollowpoint rounds drastically reduce this risk). I also would be very very worried about your neighbor's reaction to you pulling a gun on her dogs. Seems like it would be likely for her to get in between you and her dogs, or try to wrestle it from you, or other similar ridiculousness.

Yeah, that's why I suggested a cattle prod earlier in the thread. More club like, multiple uses and keep some distance. If it will jerk a fully grown cow around it should really attract the pits attention.

A thought I just had -- your dogs are probably picking up on your fear of the backyard, more than being scared themselves, so you might have better luck if you take them out the front, where you won't be terrified. That should relax them and let them act more normally outside.

Rabbit,

I have no advice to give beyond what you have already received.

As one whom has heard your dogs barking in the background during raids, I hope Vinnie recovers and send prayers and love to you and your pack. I can only imagine how traumatic this whole event has been. You guys will be in my thoughts.

Not really helpful now but when our neighbors pitbull attacks another neighbors dog they stick their finger in the butt to get it to let go. Things you learn in the suburbs. And since this is GWJ I know the finger->butt reference would be cheered.

An indefensible attack, sounds like a secret ninja technique. The variety of applications and imagery this conjures is just priceless i.e. bear attacks, shark attacks, muggings...

Eezy_Bordone wrote:

Not really helpful now but when our neighbors pitbull attacks another neighbors dog they stick their finger in the butt to get it to let go. Things you learn in the suburbs. And since this is GWJ I know the finger->butt reference would be cheered.

If it's part of your neighbors' procedural handbook that "when my dog attacks another neighbor's dog I should put my finger up its butt," I don't know that I'd consider it a point in favor of their owning a pit.

Ballotechnic wrote:

An indefensible attack, sounds like a secret ninja technique. The variety of applications and imagery this conjures is just priceless i.e. bear attacks, shark attacks, muggings...

Try finding a sharks butt during an attack!

I have nothing to add to the already excellent advice given here, but I hope Vinnie is doing better and I hope your neighbours lose the right to own pets.

They sound incredibly irresponsible and dishonest.

MrDeVil909 wrote:
Ballotechnic wrote:

An indefensible attack, sounds like a secret ninja technique. The variety of applications and imagery this conjures is just priceless i.e. bear attacks, shark attacks, muggings...

Try finding a sharks butt during an attack!

If you wait long enough you'll find it.

Nosferatu wrote:
MrDeVil909 wrote:
Ballotechnic wrote:

An indefensible attack, sounds like a secret ninja technique. The variety of applications and imagery this conjures is just priceless i.e. bear attacks, shark attacks, muggings...

Try finding a sharks butt during an attack!

If you wait long enough you'll find it.

Yeah, but you will be approaching from the inside, I would say that's a little late!

:p

On the other hand, the shark will never see it coming.

What a horrible story. The owner of the pits is absolutely responsible, and that should sideline any silliness about her injuries. Find yourself a good lawyer and take them to the cleaners, though I hope there's an injunction against them already that they can't have their dogs in the yard off leash. Beyond that, I'd suggest talking to a dog trainer to find out how to make your dogs feel comfortable in the yard again. Most of it is time, but maybe something can accelerate the process. I know if I thought it would help I'd pee along the entire border of my yard. There's gotta be something you can do.

Anyone who thinks it's acceptable to lock their dogs in a 4x4 outdoor jail ought to spend a few years in the human equivalent: Solitary confinement in a federal prison. When they get out, see how well-adjusted they are. Take a breed created specifically for its ability to maul and mix it with neglect and an inability to exercise and it's a recipe for disaster every time. Some (that is, a lot of) people are so cruel to animals they're supposed to care for and it mystifies and enrages me all at once. I wish the best for Vinnie; If the same thing happened to me I would lose any ability to control my actions against the neighbor. Their house would probably be a smoldering crater by now.

I'm going to go hug my two little buddies.