Vinnie: Rest In Peace

SillyRabbit wrote:

I think the neighbor was amazing that she kept on fighting to get her dogs off Vinnie until the very end. She laid herself on top of the first dog we managed to get off of him and she held him down. She helped save Vinnie's life from what she knows was a brutal assault that would kill him. She and I were in a war zone and we were on the same side. We were both fighting to save Vinnie. I guarantee you she's as traumatized as I am.

Marsman wrote this a little while ago, and I'd meant to comment on it then.

Marsman[/url]]The neighbor is probably scared to death of her husband. He'll blame her for the loss of the dogs and make her life (more) miserable.

"I have complete control over my dogs and my weak wife lost control and couldn't stop the attack."

So, she made up the story to make it look like SR's fault.

We have no idea what household dynamics could be in play on the neighbor's side. If the wife is fearful of her husband, lying about what happened could be the only way she sees of staying safe.

In any event, screenshotting the facebook page is a good thing. While there have been posts in this thread that have been borderline inappropriate or made me uncomfortable, it's clear that nobody (even Paleocon) actually intends your neighbor or their animals harm.

And, to end on a more positive note, it's great to hear that Vinnie's continuing to heal. He must be very happy to be home with you all again.

SillyRabbit, one other suggestion I might make for the future is buying a Wi-Fi security camera and set it pointing at your neighbour's fence where the dogs came under. Depending on where you live, it might be illegal to point it at their house but the property line should be OK. In the event that their dogs ever try to come under your fence again or even just show overly strong aggression to you or your dogs while staying on their side, you will have video evidence of their tendencies which along with the Facebook transcript should go a long way to helping you win the unfortunate fight you've ended up in. The cameras aren't too expensive (usually around $150), some of them are certified for outside installation and you can set them to just stream and record the video to a PC in the house.

Yonder wrote:
Malor wrote:

Taking it semi-public like that is pretty shameful, though.

How is that any different than what SillyRabbit is doing? Something very upsetting is happening to him and he's venting to friends in a semi-public place.

Aside from the fact that the neighbour's are lying through their teeth, Facebook uses real names, it doesn't begin to compare to an anonymous Internet forum.

Glad to hear Vinnie's doing better and finally home! He truly is the wonderdog.

Your neighbors make me sick, and although it's good to be civil and adult about this, these people are clearly out-of-their-minds. Best of luck and I'm so glad to here Vinnie is doing well. I can't believe that asshole posted lies on facebook (can't believe I just said that) and has buddies asking for your address. It sounds like a scare tactic and, hopefully, nothing more.

Seriously. It is just straight up impossible to make the facts agree with their version of the story.

If my friend told me that his pit bull hopped a perimeter fence to play with his next door neighbor's undersized mutt and what ensued was the neighbor's fault, I'd tell them they were full of feces and to learn to live like a freaking adult. I hope your neighbor's friends all end up doing time for DUI.

E-Collar? Hmmm. Take a look at the Bite Not Collar. We've used that it, it works better than the E-Collar, and it's far easier on the dog. Just a thought.

We're talking about an adrenaline fueled emergency, and we're talking about an insular group making judgments second hand on that emergency. I would say the similarities between Pit Bull Mama's facebook and this thread here are pretty clear.

I trust Sillyrabbit's word because I've spent years getting to know her online personality; I have to assume it's pretty identical over there on Pit Bull Mama's side of the fence. And, hell, given the situation, it's possible she actually believes her version of the events.

That said, regardless of whose events are accurate, there was one dog seriously injured on his owner's property, by an invasive and violent animal. Even if Pit Bull Baby was coming to play and Vinnie attacked, that doesn't justify a damn thing that happened here. In my opinion, anyway.

Robear wrote:

E-Collar? Hmmm. Take a look at the Bite Not Collar. We've used that it, it works better than the E-Collar, and it's far easier on the dog. Just a thought.

Big +1 from me on this. Robear had mentioned this when one of our pups was badly injured, and it was a great choice.

IMAGE(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3389/3183782782_499158275a_m.jpg) IMAGE(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3330/3183789118_68e5d89294_m.jpg)

In the second shot, Bazino has a sad face because he's at the vet, not because the collar was uncomfortable.

Taidaan wrote:

My personal recommendation for a defensive weapon tool goes to this sucker:

IMAGE(http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-15879359145117_2112_10151806)

Ooohhhh!!!! I like that. A stabby, choppy hammer thing. What is it and where can I get one?

Parallax Abstraction wrote:

SillyRabbit, one other suggestion I might make for the future is buying a Wi-Fi security camera and set it pointing at your neighbour's fence where the dogs came under. Depending on where you live, it might be illegal to point it at their house but the property line should be OK. In the event that their dogs ever try to come under your fence again or even just show overly strong aggression to you or your dogs while staying on their side, you will have video evidence of their tendencies which along with the Facebook transcript should go a long way to helping you win the unfortunate fight you've ended up in. The cameras aren't too expensive (usually around $150), some of them are certified for outside installation and you can set them to just stream and record the video to a PC in the house.

Outstanding idea. Not sure about the coverage including any of her yard, though. Seems like she could complain that you're invading her right to do what she wants on her property without being filmed, and she'd probably have a point.

Marsman wrote:
Taidaan wrote:

My personal recommendation for a defensive weapon tool goes to this sucker:

IMAGE(http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-15879359145117_2112_10151806)

Ooohhhh!!!! I like that. A stabby, choppy hammer thing. What is it and where can I get one?

Its called the Annihilator Wrecking Bar

RichyRambo wrote:
Marsman wrote:
Taidaan wrote:

My personal recommendation for a defensive weapon tool goes to this sucker:

IMAGE(http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-15879359145117_2112_10151806)

Ooohhhh!!!! I like that. A stabby, choppy hammer thing. What is it and where can I get one?

Its called the Annihilator Wrecking Bar

That spike on the bottom looks like it might have some blowback if wielded in the scrum of snapping dogs. And I quote from 1 reviewer on Amazon:

The spike at the handle end can be a blessing and a curse. If carefully used, it is extremely handy for spliting boards apart or letting someone know that the last creme-filled dounut is yours. When incorrectly used, you can cause puncture wounds up and down you legs and it goes through standard leather boots. A naturally clumsy person should never be allowed to use this tool for the safety of themselves and the others around them.
HedgeWizard wrote:

*Amazon review, among other things*

Someone must not have video game experience (i.e. poor hand-eye coordination), because that spike isn't as sharp as it looks. Actually carried the Annihilator around work today (never got to use it, too little to demolish), and yes that point is awkward, but using the top as a support grip to aid in the driving of a particular direction reduces the risk of self-inflicted injury. Another way to avoid injury: practice makes perfect! Oh, uh, not that I'm implying practice on overly aggressive canines or anything... that's game-day material. Use wood or cinder blocks (or, regrettably, the drywall its supposed to be used against) to test it on!

The Facebook issue seems like it is an attack on your person as well as Vinnie's, given your description of events: "He's got friends that are angry and asking for my name and address." His angry friends aren't going to show up on your door looking to deal with your cute [and awesome] dog; they're going to want to cause trouble with Vinnie's owner.

Glad to hear Vinnie is home and doing well! You should get a PayPal donation thing set up, so we can all chip in for dog treats and shotguns![/joke]

Taidaan wrote:

The Facebook issue seems like it is an attack on your person as well as Vinnie's, given your description of events: "He's got friends that are angry and asking for my name and address." His angry friends aren't going to show up on your door looking to deal with your cute [and awesome] dog; they're going to want to cause trouble with Vinnie's owner.

Glad to hear Vinnie is home and doing well! You should get a PayPal donation thing set up, so we can all chip in for dog treats and shotguns![/joke]

They must be morons then if they can't figure out what neighbor means.

Been a couple of days since an update. I hope that Vinnie and all of you are still mending well.
Keep us informed.

Yay for a shout-out on the podcast!

Dr_Awkward wrote:

Been a couple of days since an update. I hope that Vinnie and all of you are still mending well.

Second.

Polliwog wrote:

Yay for a shout-out on the podcast!

Dr_Awkward wrote:

Been a couple of days since an update. I hope that Vinnie and all of you are still mending well.

Second.

Third.

IIRC, today was the day they were to either go before a judge or meet with the County Attorney (can't remember which, don't have time to look for it). I'll be praying and checking for updates!

RichyRambo wrote:

Its called the Annihilator Wrecking Bar

"Gift-wrap available."

SR, hope all is going well for you and Vinnie.

Yes please give us an update when you can SR, all of the posters, plus us silent reader non posting types definitely want to know how Vinnie is doing.

I came real close to posting something similar to this earlier. If it's on your property, you have every right to kill an animal you deem a threat. I personally would have taken one out, in hopes the others would back off.

As for her getting bitten, even if it was your dog, and she could prove it, your dog was only trying to defend itself from an unprovoked attack. In trying to survive, he can't risk the moment it would take to figure out if she's there to help him, or help them (as they are her dogs).

Anyways, glad things are looking OK. Hope your dog recovers quickly.

Thank you all again, so much, for your concern. I've known you were out there pulling for me and Vinnie. He's doing fantastic. His open wounds continue to get a little smaller each day. Today when I came home and let him out of the crate he was absolutely bouncy. He jumped up on me and romped around. That shoulder wound still hasn't healed over, but it's looking good. I had to make him settle down so he wouldn't hurt himself, though I did let him stand up on his hind legs and stretch against me for a sec. This guy has a spirit that can't be beat. He wants to romp and play, which is awesome, but he's not ready yet.

I had a big surprise when I got to my meeting with the Co. Atty: my neighbors were waiting outside the office. Turns out the Co Atty decided he wanted to meet with us all at once. I really felt bad about this because they had a private session with him and I had not. I thought it was a huge mistake ... but, as time goes by and I reevaluate the meeting, I think he may have done the right thing.

To cut it down to the basic conclusions the Co. Atty had come to: (and there were some major BS moments from the neighbors that the Co. Atty. isn't buying so I'm not gonna go into)
- this was a dog fight on my property, any resulting human injuries were a result of trying to break up the dog fight
- this is not a case of a vicious dog attack
- this is a dangerous situation, there have been 2 unresolved dog fights, there cannot be another. The neighbors have got to keep their dogs out of my yard. If they don't, I have the right to kill them (the dogs) and if I don't kill them, they can be confiscated and ordered destroyed
- the neighbors have no criminal charges to bring
- I can press charges of animals running at large: according to the Co Atty, this would probably result in a fine and possibly requirements on how the dogs would be kept. An atty advised me that this could also mean the judge orders the animals destroyed.
- the Co. Atty thinks that the law can't resolve our problem, he sees the bigger picture. He would rather we come to some resolution that will ensure the dogs can't come into my yard, and that there can be peace in the neighborhood.

The Co. Atty. wants me to decide whether or not I want to press charges, and has told them to do whatever they can to be sure their dogs are confined to their own yard.

In the meantime, we have agreed to call each other before letting our dogs out.

I'm afraid of retaliation from prosecution. I'm heart sick to think that I have this choice. I'm thinking about going to the neighbors to let them decide if I press charges. I'm thinking, pay the vet bills and install a 6 ft privacy fence to my specifications and I won't press charges. My insurance agent has assured me that if they file a civil suit they will defend it and won't pay them a dime.

SillyRabbit wrote:

I'm thinking, pay the vet bills and install a 6 ft privacy fence to my specifications and I won't press charges. My insurance agent has assured me that if they file a civil suit they will defend it and won't pay them a dime.

Sounds like this would be my plan. The vet bills had damn well better come out of the neighbor's pocket.

So glad to hear Vinnie is on the mend!

Outstanding...seems like an overall "win" to me, at least in terms of that meeting! Some relatively tough choices to make now, but it sounds like the ball is in your court, and the county attorney is a reasonable fellow.

I'm inclined to agree about putting up the fence and not pressing charges. As cathartic as it would be to bring the law to bear on them, and as much as they deserve it, it would cause a lot of tension that would have the effect of prolonging the situation. On the other hand, this business of calling her every time you want to take your dogs out will get real old, real fast.

Not sure there's much point in asking the neighbor whether you should press charges against her (?!??). Based on the story so far, I think I can safely give you her answer: "No, you shouldn't press charges against me, my babies didn't do anything wrong!" That's purely your decision to make.

I tend to agree with Thin_J, the vet bills shouldn't be your responsibility. You might consider striking a "deal" with her...you won't press charges if she'll pay the vet bills.

SillyRabbit wrote:

To cut it down to the basic conclusions the Co. Atty had come to: (and there were some major BS moments from the neighbors that the Co. Atty. isn't buying so I'm not gonna go into)

Aw c'mon, tell us all about the BS moments! That's the fun part!

I wonder what the boyfriend's Facebook page looks like now...

Anyway, I'm glad to hear Vinnie's doing better, too. You know, I just remembered...a couple Christmases ago, I arrived at my uncle's to find my cousin there with his dog, whom my other cousin, a vet, had recently finished patching up. As best they could figure, the dog had been out roaming around and was shot with a 12-gauge. As he was crawling home, he also fended off an attack by some wild animal before my cousin found him in a heap on his porch. "Tan, third-world mutt," just like Vinnie.

Vet cousin hadn't been able to save one of his legs, but they were frantically draining various open wounds and fighting infection while I was there. Today the dog is happy and healthy (-1 leg)...I don't tell this story to "one-up" Vinnie's ordeal (don't think I would have succeeded if I did), just to express my confidence in the toughness of these dogs and my optimism that Vinnie will be fine.

This is exactly the positive news I was hoping for. Like most here, I was pretty sure that the CA was going to have to take your side. His emphasis that their dogs are at risk of being put to death, whether by you or the authoities is exactly the message they needed to hear.

My only advice would be to think long and hard about allowing them to keep those dogs at their home. It's a tough decsion. But you have to be pretty darn sure that those dogs will not get out an attack your dogs, or anyone else in the neighborhood. I'd say this was the one unfair result of the meeting. This should not be on your plate. There seems to be plenty of information that those dogs need to be gone.

But this could be a blessing, if having those dogs put down is something you want to avoid. I'd consider demanding the couple give the dogs away as part of any deal in which you do not press charges. It just seems too likely that they will get out, and they will attack somebody, or some dog. You really have to decide if you might feel responsibility for that. I'd discuss this with your other neighbors in order to get a feel for where they stand.

Personally, I think the fact that you feel a need to call in advance in order to let your dogs out should be enough for you to realize that those dogs are not a good fit for their owners or your neighborhood.

But I don't envy your situation, and I appreciate the seriousness in which you are taking this. I wish nothing but the best for you and your dogs. Regardless of what decisions you make, you've made it pretty clear that you are looking at every side in an as objective manner that I doubt most, including myself, could muster.

Glad to hear things are going well SR. Its really good to hear that Vinnie is recovering so quickly.
If a fence and vet bills are part of the deal for you not pressing charges then be sure to have them take care of these things quickly. No procrastination.
Also make sure you know how long you have before your option to press charges runs out.

Dr_Awkward wrote:

Glad to hear things are going well SR. Its really good to hear that Vinnie is recovering so quickly.
If a fence and vet bills are part of the deal for you not pressing charges then be sure to have them take care of these things quickly. No procrastination.
Also make sure you know how long you have before your option to press charges runs out.

This. Find out how long you have to decide. Then you can negotiate with the pitbull owners. Be sure to set a deadline for completion of the fence, one that gives you enough time to press charges if they aren't going to live up to their end of the agreement. Short of that, they will procrastinate and delay and potentially never actually spend the money needed for the fence, leaving your animals at risk.

A 6' privacy fence may not be what you need. You might consult with a professional pitbull breeder, and see what they think is a suitable fence, one that will keep the pitbulls from scaling/bashing/digging their way through.

Make sure to specify a time limit on when they can get the privacy fence up. Jackasses like your neighbors will agree to it to save their vicious animals, but will be deadbeats about holding up their side of the bargain. Tell them the fence needs to be up in a week or you're getting their dogs destroyed.

edit: on second thought, I'm with Jayhawker on this one. Those dogs can not live next to you. Either they leave or they die. It is simply horrifically unjust to make Vinnie and the other dogs have to endure being terrorized that way.

While I, and others here, think it's a good idea that those dogs are gone from next to your house, you're obviously a dog lover... Make sure you make a decision that you can live with comfortably, and don't take our advice simply because it sounds sensible. But also be a hardass and don't let them know that.