Vinnie: Merry Fencemas!

Kiri wrote:
The best way to break up a fight is to grab the dogs by the hind end and pull them backwards, with a pit or any other fighting dog, it is a dangerous thing to get in the way.

I've never tried this, but in considering it, seems like would give the dog ample room to turn and bite your arm off. I tend to go for the neck, which is still quite dangerous, but hopefully limits the bite they can get on me. Neither situation do I ever want to find myself in again.

Quinton_Stone wrote:
Pepper spray is one option.

I must get some. It may just work.

That's so awful, and I hope he pulls through in good shape.

It definitely sounds like it's time for your own fangs on this one. I would normally be in full agreement on the live-and-let-live idea with the neighbor, but by lying about Vinnie, she's in essence joining her pack. She's attacking your dog just as lethally as those pitbulls did.

I'm not fond of aggression. I'd much rather work out a compromise. But there are times and places when it's needed, and this is one. She's trying to kill your dog. Leave nothing standing. (metaphorically, of course -- legal torches and pitchforks, not real ones.)

Oh, one thought: if you haven't already, go take pictures of Vinnie as soon as you can, while his injuries are most visible.

Barring pepper-spray, a breaking bar is the best way to stop something like this.

A metal bar that you can use to either (a) Whack the offending dogs around the head; or (b) stick it in the mouth of the dog biting your dog and pry open the mouth.

Of course, (b) is pretty dangerous to do, so pepper spray is probably your best option.

As for the lawsuit, also take pictures of the fence, with the marks/holes where her dogs went through. It is gruesome, but if there is blood on the ground/steps/in your car, take pictures of that. Any towels or anything like that, keep as evidence (ie, do not wash) to show the DA/Animal Control Officer. Also, note how many families with young kids are in the neighbourhood. If the border on her yard, even better. "Just be thankful that it was my dog they attacked, not little Megan."

Have the date of the prior attack, your conversation afterwards, and note that she said that she would fix the fence.

The ACO is likely pressing charges against you solely on the word of the lady that "his dog bit me!!" Be prepared for the possibility that it will not matter to him the fact that her dogs were in the process of turning your dog into a canine Stretch Armstrong. Possibly because he doesn't care, possibly because the law may not allow him to. (ie, it is entirely possible that the simple fact that he bit her is all that matters.) It may be harsh, but be prepared to show the ACO all the evidence that her dogs attack yours regularly.

Malor, I like your metaphors, and I get what you're saying.

Malor wrote:
Oh, one thought: if you haven't already, go take pictures of Vinnie as soon as you can, while his injuries are most visible.

The ACO showed up at my residence after I had already left for the vet. My good neighbor told him what vet I use and he was there by the time I left the examining room. He got picks of Vinnie. I am going to get more pics tomorrow and the surgeon said she would provide me with their close up pics showing the exposed vein and purple nerve endings (not good).

MudBunny wrote:
A metal bar that you can use to either (a) Whack the offending dogs around the head; or (b) stick it in the mouth of the dog biting your dog and pry open the mouth.

MudBunny, I'd like to possess one of these and learn how to use it.

MudBunny wrote:
The ACO is likely pressing charges against you solely on the word of the lady that "his dog bit me!!"

As I look back to what I wrote I see it's unclear ... The ACO is the one that referred me to the Co. Atty, because he thought the neighbors were going to be pressing charges for the dog bite. ACO in this county does not bring charges. So, if I want the dogs to be deemed vicious, I have to bring suit. I kinda hate that, and appreciate that my neighbors are making me countersue.

SillyRabbit wrote:
MudBunny wrote:
A metal bar that you can use to either (a) Whack the offending dogs around the head; or (b) stick it in the mouth of the dog biting your dog and pry open the mouth.

MudBunny, I'd like to possess one of these and learn how to use it.

Find a local reputable trainer and ask them. If you like, PM me your location (town) and I will ask some people I know in the dog world if they know of any reputable trainers in the area who can help you.

MudBunny wrote:
The ACO is likely pressing charges against you solely on the word of the lady that "his dog bit me!!"

As I look back to what I wrote I see it's unclear ... Animal Control advised me that the NEIGHBORS are most likely pressing charges for a dog bite. The ACO is the one that referred me to the Co. Atty.

Ahh, OK. I understand now. The neighbours (the ones with the pitbulls) are going to be trying to get charges laid against you for a dog bite.

But like I said, the ACO may have no choice, according to local city statutes, but to label your dog a dangerous dog. It all depends on the wording of the statutes and how much freedom your ACO has to interpret/apply it.

Mudbunny wrote:
But like I said, the ACO may have no choice, according to local city statutes, but to label your dog a dangerous dog. It all depends on the wording of the statutes and how much freedom your ACO has to interpret/apply it.

That's what I have to defend, my dog is fighting for his life ... to be labeled vicious is something I won't let happen.

ThatGuy42 wrote:
Agreed. It's not about the dog breed at all

While I agree with this to a point, this story is a very familiar one, and the dogs in question are never Labradors.

Any breed can be properly trained and be loving and gentle, but some take a lot more work to get there.

Black males bite postal workers??

*Legion* wrote:
ThatGuy42 wrote:
Agreed. It's not about the dog breed at all

While I agree with this to a point, this story is a very familiar one, and the dogs in question are never Labradors.

Any breed can be properly trained and be loving and gentle, but some take a lot more work to get there.

Because those just get written up as "Dog bites mailman", whereas if it was a pitbull it goes something like "Pitbull mauls postal worker". You used to see the same thing about "Black Males" in the news.

edit: I fully admit that some breeds are less likely to do major physical harm to others simply by their size or lack thereof. A Ratdog is unlike to be able to kill a human or another dog if the other dog is large enough and not already wounded (well not until they learn to wield knives or guns anyway)

Quintin_Stone wrote:
Black males bite postal workers??

Only if you buy them dinner first and ask nicely.

Malor wrote:
It definitely sounds like it's time for your own fangs on this one. I would normally be in full agreement on the live-and-let-live idea with the neighbor, but by lying about Vinnie, she's in essence joining her pack. She's attacking your dog just as lethally as those pitbulls did.

This is the key. She has directly chosen to be an aggressor in the matter; hell, she's flat-out lying to try to save her dogs. Logic would dictate that she has no plans of truly corralling the dogs. They either need to be taken from her or put down. It's not a vindictive move on your part; it's simply to prevent any future malfeasance from occurring, including the pit bulls again escaping and inflicting lethal force against your dogs or (God forbid) you or a neighbor kid. It's simply not safe.

That being said, I wish your dog a speedy recovery and you all the best with any attorney/court proceedings.

Actually given their record I strongly suspect the dogs will be put down, no matter what SillyRabbit wishes. Most officials take a dim view of known violent dogs, and frankly it's hard to rally the community around a pitbull that has actually gone on the attack.

This is rough. I'm thinking about your dog, hope all turns out well.

I can understand why your neighbor is taking the action she is. She's afraid of losing her dogs. We all have this instinct of self preservation, but she's going too far. Basically, she's trying to save her dogs by way of killing yours and get a settlement from you on top of it all.

With the actions your neighbor has decided to take against you and your pet, your mind should be at ease about aggressively defending yourself. I don't have any legal advice for you. I have no idea how the law works in these situations, but I do know that prior history added to violent behavior will favor you drastically.

Here's the sh*tty part. Those dogs will probably have to be put down. I've met many nice pit-bulls. Hell, I practically live with two of them. Not all pit-bulls are violent, by nature, but these particular dogs seem to be. Unfortunately, there is no jail for dogs. Those dogs are dangerous.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for violent animals, because my sister was mauled by a Japanese Akita with a history of violence. She was house-sitting for some friends of the family and, one morning, the dog attacked her face. The owners had failed to tell her that the dog killed their neighbor's dog a couple months prior. They thought it was a one-off event. A fluke.

I tell you this, because, animals that are violent cannot be rehabilitated. They don't run on a thought process of right and wrong. Even if they've only attacked your dog, and it was only on two occasions, that doesn't mean they won't attack a person. If it comes down to those dogs being destroyed, you shouldn't feel bad. I know it'll suck. My sister cried when she heard the dog that attacked her was put down. It is, however, the probable outcome.

Edit:
Dammit! Tannhausered again!!

I'm sorry to hear about your situation SR. Good luck to you and a speedy recovery to Vinnie.
There's a lot of good advice in this thread.

So sorry to hear about your situation, it really sucks when folks can't take proper care of their pets. If I were in your position I would seek to have the pitbulls put down. They are clearly demonstrating aggression and you neighbor doesn't appear to want or be capable of of controlling them. As awful as this incident with your dog is, you don't want yourself or someone in your neighborhood to become their next victim. Violent attacks like this are just the sort of warning sign that no one is safe. You don't want that on your conscience if you can help it.

Hope your buddy has a speedy recovery.

My neighbor once told me that her dog wouldn't attack a hot buttered biscuit. Hell, even I would attack one of those. My other neighbor (the guy who helped break up the dogs) is claiming her dog attacked another neighborhood dog a month ago. I know I have no choice but to pursue this. I will try to find a safe place for the dogs rather than have them put down, but only if it's a place where they would be handled by professionals. I don't know if such a place exists. I believe with all my heart that we can't keep them out of my yard, and the next time, if there is one, they will kill Vinnie.

Thank you all for the well wishes, I'm taking in all the advice and honestly, I have to plan for the future of me and my dogs. I've only lived in this house since April. So far I've had a flood, a tornado, 2 dog attacks ... and my mortgage is $666. No sh*t.

Thank you all for the added info and well wishes for Vinnie.

Geez, Jut, I'm so sorry to hear this. I hope Vinnie pulls through.

You're very lucky, and from the outside looking in, I think you have a great chance of defending yourself against your neighbor. I don't envy the relationship you will have with her now, though. It sucks to have tension with neighbors.

I'm clearly overstating things, but it sounds like the neighbour shouldn't have dogs. A 4x4 (foot?) kennel without sufficient water just isn't enough for a dog, they need some space to actually move around and get some exercise. I remember the pens my grandmother had when she still had the Keeshonds from her showing days, they were huge (well, to a kid), in the shade, and the dogs always had water and a pen each. Pitbulls or not, the dogs are not in a good environment.

I hope Vinnie recovers and it's good to hear you escaped without much harm to yourself.

Sending positive waves.

I hope your poor pup pulls through. Your neighbor is a vile person who doesn't properly care for her pets, and is a danger to the community.
I would bake a delicious cake and bring over a case of beer to the guy who helped break up the fight. He could have gotten seriously hurt just like Vinnie.

I talked with a friend of mine who went through all manner of shadowy military training and he told me that grabbing the dog by the hind legs is one of the worst things you could do. He suggested grabbing by the FRONT legs. I know this sounds dangerous and it is. It requires full commitment. Go in big or not at all. Once you have the front legs grabbed, pull in opposite directions perpendicular to the axis of the spine. This causes intense pain in the dog as their joints are not suited to moving in the cruciform direction. Should it not let go, about 10-20 pounds of pressure in that direction will snap the dogs shoulders and collapse the lungs. If the dog is attacking your dog (or a person), the best way to achieve this is from behind the attacking dog. Grab both legs, put your knee in its back, and pull like your dog's life depends on it. It should look like pulling the drumsticks off a turkey.

Don't know if I can add anything to the discussion, but I hope it turns out okay for you and Vinnie. Hope he recovers quickly!

Aries wrote:
Geez, Jut, I'm so sorry to hear this. I hope Vinnie pulls through.

Whoa. Who are you calling "Jut"?

In Korean slang, "Jut" is a pretty disrespectful way of saying "titty". You call a Korean woman that and expect to get a world class beatdown from he entourage of musclebound meatheads.

Paleocon wrote:
Grab both legs, put your knee in its back, and pull like your dog's life depends on it. It should look like pulling the drumsticks off a turkey.

I can do this. I just visualized myself applying this move. It's no more dangerous than what I was already doing ... ok, well it is a bit more dangerous. But still, I can see this working. I'm not real sure I'm strong enough to do this to one of the massive pitties, but I think I'll be doing some strength training to be prepared. What I was doing yesterday, which was pulling at the neck, hitting the head, kicking the ribs ... barely phased these guys. The images of yesterday are haunting me. I think they always will.

I'm going up to see Vinnie now, I'll send him all of your well wishes. Thank you, everyone.

No matter who bit your neighbor (and it certainly sounds like one of hers), shouldn't that be treated differently than an attack on a human? I don't know the laws here. I understand that a dog that just goes off and bites people needs to be euthanized, but when a dog bites someone who has waded into the middle of a dog fight? It just seems like the two cases would be treated differently.

Anyway, my best. I've had similar situations arise, though never to this severity. I hope everything works out for you and your dog. Keep us posted.

Paleocon wrote:
Aries wrote:
Geez, Jut, I'm so sorry to hear this. I hope Vinnie pulls through.

Whoa. Who are you calling "Jut"?

In Korean slang, "Jut" is a pretty disrespectful way of saying "titty". You call a Korean woman that and expect to get a world class beatdown from he entourage of musclebound meatheads.

I knew SillyRabbit as her character names before I knew her forum name -- they all started with "Jut"

Sending really positive vibes your way.
I wish I had some advice for you, but like everyone else is saying, be ready for a fight and go on the offensive. At this point there's no way you all are getting out of this without someone losing their dog, just be sure it's not yours.

The decision to sue and what to sue over are two separate decisions. She knew she had to sue when she got her arm torn up. She knew that the only way suing could end well for her is if she blamed your dog.

I also know from personal experience that normal people can't really protect their dogs from that kind of situation. You would have had to have kept Vinnie on a leash and stayed with him whenever he was outside, ready to pull him back inside at a moment's notice until you were very sure the fence was fixed. I had a similar situation where I was walking my German Shepard and my neighbor's little dustmop came tearing down the driveway and bit my dog on the leg. My dog just kind of looked at it as if to say, "are you kidding?," but my neighbor was running right after his dog and immediately started shouting accusations that my dog somehow attacked his.

I wish you the best. It's not a good situation and I know how hard it can be.

Poor Vinnie, what a bunch of crap! Best of luck with this BS situation. Those pits would be seeing an early grave if they messed with my animals, but I'm sure the best course of action is to stay calm and think things through. I know it's best to follow "proper" legal action, but the system always seems to break down (even more so) when animals are involved.

If your neighbor still has dogs after this event (not sure if she has more than those three or what) then I think you need to completely replace that fence to ensure the safety of you and your dogs.

A fence on the dirt just isn't dog proof. If a dog doesn't go through it it's because it chooses not to, not that it can't. Even if the fence is pinned to the ground well, over time the dogs may dig at it or push against it and knock it loose again (probably what happened).

Whether you go with Chainlink, wood, or a brick wall you need to start out with a concrete foundation in order to have a fence that dogs can't dig under or skirt under. It doesn't need to be much of a foundation, say four inches wide and 4-6 inches deep.