Stupid little bags of testosterone

*Legion* wrote:

Why did you a**holes take this beautiful thread about teenage girls dating, and make it all about herpes?

Because you are creepy man.

*Legion* wrote:

Why did you a**holes take this beautiful thread about teenage girls dating, and make it all about herpes?

You'll find out at your next checkup

*Legion* wrote:

Why did you a**holes take this beautiful thread about teenage girls dating, and make it all about herpes?

Pregnancy, STDs on the Rise Again Amongst US Teens.

clover wrote:
athros wrote:
Falchion wrote:

Well if you don't mind hearing more details about Eldrich Maintenance Work Orders in a short-form, episodic, story format with irregular updates, I could start a new thread and stop hijacking Trichy's...

I WOULD SUBSCRIBE TO THAT!

You know, Falchion, Nanowrimo just started...

Ha! Just nice too, been meaning to try it out for years. But I'm a terribly inconsistent writer so having a deadline to pump out certain number of words by a certain date doesn't work well on me.

I seem to work best when bouncing ideas back and forth off other people and taking a seed of a story idea from that and running with it.
Keeping it in a forum format would allow for everyone to participate/contribute while keeping the stories mostly organized as it builds.

Anyway I started it here - Con-FES : Contact Falchion Eldrich Services

Back to your original thread topic on teenage dating, lamentations of parents and herpes.

This thread so amply highlights why I'm so scared of having a daughter one day, although I want one.

Minarchist wrote:

Why has no one made a herpetology joke yet? You people make me sad.

IMAGE(http://www.animalspot.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Tiger-Salamander-Images.jpg)

Because we may be nerds, but it took a super-nerd to make that connection. :p

Pretty salamander.

In an attempt to wrestle the thread back on track away from lizards, herpes and chicken blood...

Emily had a great time at the dance. She wore a dress that I thought was too short, but to be fair, I think anything she wears is too revealing. I mean, if she's going to just let everybody ogle her ankles and elbows, I just don't know what her values have come to.

She also told me, beaming from ear to ear, that she had her first kiss at the dance. After my blood pressure returned to only three times that of normal and my hands stopped flexing as if around a presumptuous pubescent punk's throat, I told her I was happy for her, and I was glad she had a good time. The only way I was able to do that was hearing Momgamer's advice in my head. If I reacted the way I wanted (shotgun in each hand as I ran screaming down the street shooting at anything that had a Y-chromosome), she would have never felt comfortable talking to me about boys again. I suppose my need to have a good, healthy relationship with Emily trumps my need to castrate those who dare lay lips upon her.

trichy wrote:

If I reacted the way I wanted (shotgun in each hand as I ran screaming down the street shooting at anything that had a Y-chromosome)

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/VK0mm.jpg)

Aww crap, you said a shotgun in *each* hand. My bad.

Seriously though, I am not looking forward to finding out I'm having a daughter for pretty much this reason. Way to keep your cool, though

I'd have stopped her and said "Honey, I know you're excited, but this is the sort of thing you tell your mother if you want this boy to stay alive."

trichy wrote:

In an attempt to wrestle the thread back on track away from lizards, herpes and chicken blood...

Emily had a great time at the dance. She wore a dress that I thought was too short, but to be fair, I think anything she wears is too revealing. I mean, if she's going to just let everybody ogle her ankles and elbows, I just don't know what her values have come to.

She also told me, beaming from ear to ear, that she had her first kiss at the dance. After my blood pressure returned to only three times that of normal and my hands stopped flexing as if around a presumptuous pubescent punk's throat, I told her I was happy for her, and I was glad she had a good time. The only way I was able to do that was hearing Momgamer's advice in my head. If I reacted the way I wanted (shotgun in each hand as I ran screaming down the street shooting at anything that had a Y-chromosome), she would have never felt comfortable talking to me about boys again. I suppose my need to have a good, healthy relationship with Emily trumps my need to castrate those who dare lay lips upon her.

I think you handled it well. Let's just hope that she doesn't continue to reveal her "firsts" to you.

Props Trichy, you're an example to us all.
You're doing a great job of taking us through the impulse / thought /response process.

Nevin73 wrote:

Let's just hope that she doesn't continue to reveal her "firsts" to you.

On the contrary. Though blood pressure levels may do-decouple, that would be a sign of absolute trust. With any luck it would be a pre-consultation, where the advice could be toward being careful, postponing, and most importantly, to share those things with mother after; not dad.

And in closing. Thank god I had boys.

Wait, he openly ogled her elbows? Without a ring? I believe you're legally allowed to hang him in Tennessee for that.

Nevin73 wrote:
trichy wrote:

In an attempt to wrestle the thread back on track away from lizards, herpes and chicken blood...

Emily had a great time at the dance. She wore a dress that I thought was too short, but to be fair, I think anything she wears is too revealing. I mean, if she's going to just let everybody ogle her ankles and elbows, I just don't know what her values have come to.

She also told me, beaming from ear to ear, that she had her first kiss at the dance. After my blood pressure returned to only three times that of normal and my hands stopped flexing as if around a presumptuous pubescent punk's throat, I told her I was happy for her, and I was glad she had a good time. The only way I was able to do that was hearing Momgamer's advice in my head. If I reacted the way I wanted (shotgun in each hand as I ran screaming down the street shooting at anything that had a Y-chromosome), she would have never felt comfortable talking to me about boys again. I suppose my need to have a good, healthy relationship with Emily trumps my need to castrate those who dare lay lips upon her.

I think you handled it well. Let's just hope that she doesn't continue to reveal her "firsts" to you.

Hey, I'm fine with that. We'll sit down, she'll tell me what happened, and I'll hug her and say, "Sweetie, I love you and I know you made this decision after careful consideration and using all appropriate precautions. Now let's get to your 32nd birthday party before the hovercake is gone!"

I have a feeling I'm about to make a lot of people really mad at me; but I think this needs to be said:

Y'all are talking like prehistoric neanderthals who seem to think women are property and need to be protected from other encroaching males.

WTF guys? Look I understand protectionism, I'm both a parent and the proud owner of a vagina. But the vast majority of attitudes in this thread are a throwback to a really patriarchal system that devalues a woman to her component parts.

Like somehow her "virtue" is tied to her being "unsullied" by male touch.

Like she's a lesser human if she experiences physical attention without your approval.

Like she's not smart enough to know what "boys want", so she has to be saved from herself.

Like "good girls" don't kiss, or pet...or f*ck.

Really, guys? From you? Y'all, as a rule, are a really non-sexist, enlightened group...and I find myself kind of horrified at this chest-thumping display of ownership over your female children.

Here's the thing; when my stepdad (who raised me) and his friends thought it would be funny to pull these same sorts of stunts when I was 13, I was furious. It suggested to me that I had no agency, that I was incapable of navigating the shoals of my own adolescences without a man to tell me how to do it, that my parents didn't trust me, or my values, or my ability to make decisions.

It is infantalizing, it is infuriating, and it is the core of paternalistic discrimination. It starts a lifetime of being told that because you have a vagina, your decisions cannot be trusted; you're too weak, and too stupid to know what those "evil boys" are up to.

Trust me; by 13, we know what boys want; and those are the years where we begin to negotiate our own power in relationships. What y'all are saying is that women shouldn't be allowed to negotiate power, they should be happy with whatever dregs of decision makes YOU comfortable, and that's just wrong.

I say it again; your daughter's vagina doesn't need to be protected by you. You need to give her the skills to negotiate her own power; but you don't need to train her to believe that power is vested in her by a man.

duckideva wrote:

I have a feeling I'm about to make a lot of people really mad at me; but I think this needs to be said:

Y'all are talking like prehistoric neanderthals who seem to think women are property and need to be protected from other encroaching males.

WTF guys? Look I understand protectionism, I'm both a parent and the proud owner of a vagina. But the vast majority of attitudes in this thread are a throwback to a really patriarchal system that devalues a woman to her component parts.

Like somehow her "virtue" is tied to her being "unsullied" by male touch.

Like she's a lesser human if she experiences physical attention without your approval.

Like she's not smart enough to know what "boys want", so she has to be saved from herself.

Like "good girls" don't kiss, or pet...or f*ck.

Really, guys? From you? Y'all, as a rule, are a really non-sexist, enlightened group...and I find myself kind of horrified at this chest-thumping display of ownership over your female children.

Here's the thing; when my stepdad (who raised me) and his friends thought it would be funny to pull these same sorts of stunts when I was 13, I was furious. It suggested to me that I had no agency, that I was incapable of navigating the shoals of my own adolescences without a man to tell me how to do it, that my parents didn't trust me, or my values, or my ability to make decisions.

It is infantalizing, it is infuriating, and it is the core of paternalistic discrimination. It starts a lifetime of being told that because you have a vagina, your decisions cannot be trusted; you're too weak, and too stupid to know what those "evil boys" are up to.

Trust me; by 13, we know what boys want; and those are the years where we begin to negotiate our own power in relationships. What y'all are saying is that women shouldn't be allowed to negotiate power, they should be happy with whatever dregs of decision makes YOU comfortable, and that's just wrong.

I say it again; your daughter's vagina doesn't need to be protected by you. You need to give her the skills to negotiate her own power; but you don't need to train her to believe that power is vested in her by a man.

+ a million. Seriously.

Do you want your daughters to be happy? Do you? Then act like it.

I will say that duckideva is absolutely right and I recognize what she is saying is utterly correct, but I also know I will feel the same damn way as trichy does when my daughter (who's 8) gets older. I feel an utterly irrational desire to "protect her" in ways I don't my 10-year-old son. Part of it may be biological, part of it is undoubtedly cultural chaff I can't get rid of, but it's still there. To be fair (wandering further off-topic), teen girls have to deal with all sorts of pressures and concerns between worrying about pregnancy and the fact that teen girls suck (I mean, the stories I hear from friends, teenage girls are effing BASTARDS to each other).

I want my daughter to be happy, and part of that will be a full life, including a sex life, but, geez, I just can't let it go.

Okay, let's be clear about something. I do want Emily to be happy. I want her to have a full life, including a sex life. But that doesn't mean that the part of me that is terrified that something bad might happen to her goes away. That doesn't mean that there isn't a part of my brain that wants to follow her around and scare off anything that might do her harm. That doesn't mean that my fears about the myriad of horrible things that have the potential to occur, regardless of the likelihood, just evaporate.

Read my last post again. Yes, I freaked out inside when she told me of her first kiss. In my mind, I remember my first kiss, and the fact that a huge part of my brain wanted to go further, MUCH further. I'm new at this parenting thing, and I live in constant fear that I'm going to f*ck it up, and a big part of that is not wanting to allow any circumstance to occur that has the slightest chance of her being hurt. That's all there in my head, and I don't know how to snap my fingers and make that go away.

But after my first post in this thread, I read some of the replies and realized that my growling and snarling in front of Emily wasn't accomplishing anything. Worse, Momgamer and some other pointed out that my behavior made it less likely that Emily, and in the future, Hannah, would be honest with me about what was going on. That was something I hadn't considered. As I said, I'm new at this. I've been part of these girls' lives for less than five years. I listened.

So when Emily came up to me and told me that she had her first kiss, all those emotions roiled up in my head. I was scared, nervous, confused, and worried. But I took a breath, set my own issues aside, and told her I was happy for her. I told her that Dillon sounds like a good guy, and I'm glad that he's making her happy. I told her that if they wanted to go to the movies tonight, I would take them, and I would sit in the back of the theater so they could have a little privacy. I said all that, and I do mean it.

I can't protect Emily from everything bad that might happen to her. I know that. But no amount of enlightened understanding will ever change the fact that I will always want to. The best I can do is realize that failing in myself, and do my damndest to make sure that those failings don't cause me to act in a way that makes my girls afraid or hesitant to be honest with me or limits their opportunity to experience life on their own terms. I'm not perfect at the parenting thing, but I'm trying.

duckideva wrote:

I have a feeling I'm about to make a lot of people really mad at me; but I think this needs to be said:

Y'all are talking like prehistoric neanderthals who seem to think women are property and need to be protected from other encroaching males.

WTF guys? Look I understand protectionism, I'm both a parent and the proud owner of a vagina. But the vast majority of attitudes in this thread are a throwback to a really patriarchal system that devalues a woman to her component parts.

Like somehow her "virtue" is tied to her being "unsullied" by male touch.

Like she's a lesser human if she experiences physical attention without your approval.

Like she's not smart enough to know what "boys want", so she has to be saved from herself.

Like "good girls" don't kiss, or pet...or f*ck.

Really, guys? From you? Y'all, as a rule, are a really non-sexist, enlightened group...and I find myself kind of horrified at this chest-thumping display of ownership over your female children.

Here's the thing; when my stepdad (who raised me) and his friends thought it would be funny to pull these same sorts of stunts when I was 13, I was furious. It suggested to me that I had no agency, that I was incapable of navigating the shoals of my own adolescences without a man to tell me how to do it, that my parents didn't trust me, or my values, or my ability to make decisions.

It is infantalizing, it is infuriating, and it is the core of paternalistic discrimination. It starts a lifetime of being told that because you have a vagina, your decisions cannot be trusted; you're too weak, and too stupid to know what those "evil boys" are up to.

Trust me; by 13, we know what boys want; and those are the years where we begin to negotiate our own power in relationships. What y'all are saying is that women shouldn't be allowed to negotiate power, they should be happy with whatever dregs of decision makes YOU comfortable, and that's just wrong.

I say it again; your daughter's vagina doesn't need to be protected by you. You need to give her the skills to negotiate her own power; but you don't need to train her to believe that power is vested in her by a man.

I have two daughters, one turns 5 next week, the other turns 8 in March. I agree with what you said above whole-heartedly.

And yet, at the same time, I try not too hard to think about the things that could happen to them in the future and the various mine-fields that they may have to negotiate (because sometimes, we humans haven't evolved much past monkeys) because it completely and utterly terrifies me.

In the same way that my mother texted me in a panic on tuesday morning to make sure that Hurricane Sandy hadn't lifted my house away in some sort of Wizard of Oz style maneuver (note that I live in Ottawa, the strongest wind we got was about 60 km/hour), I can't help but worry and panic.

I am going to do my best to give her all the tools, strength and confidence to make her own way in the world, no matter what others will do, but sometimes making jokes like the above is the only way that I can deal with the future.

trichy wrote:

... So when Emily came up to me and told me that she had her first kiss, all those emotions roiled up in my head. I was scared, nervous, confused, and worried. But I took a breath, set my own issues aside, and told her I was happy for her. I told her that Dillon sounds like a good guy, and I'm glad that he's making her happy. I told her that if they wanted to go to the movies tonight, I would take them, and I would sit in the back of the theater so they could have a little privacy. I said all that, and I do mean it.

But see; that's how you do it. That is the right response. Go you.

As a guy who was sexually active too early in life, I will be schooling my boys to wait, the same way I would school my female offspring to wait. Not for any protection against being spoiled, but because it usually doesn't end up being worth it. The act is held up to be some trophy for high school boys, and it ends up being a huge worry and hassle; not mention being awkward and embarrassing when it becomes clear that you don't know what you're doing. Of course, with the internet, our children will probably have a much better idea of what needs to be done, than we did.

For girls the worry and hassle carries on after the boy gets to wear the pin on his chest for all of his buddies to see (read, brag stupidly, and make sh*t up). She has to deal with counting days to the next lunar cycle, morning after pills, etc...

Also, we beg a little forgiveness since we were raised by people who had their values implanted prior to any sexual or feminist revolution. The next generation will be the one to see the benefits of those movements. Our parents were enlightened after having their values installed, and perhaps didn't fully overcome them. My parents can now, say, what should be the outlook, but their actions still show they're small town people with 40s-50s values installed.

As an aside; date rape is a serious issue; and most girls I know/knew who weren't physically coerced, but were emotionally coerced to have sex when they didn't want to, came from super protective fathers who had never let those girls develop the ability to say NO to a man.

No is one of the most powerful weapons. (It doesn't hurt to have some serious physical training so one can enforce NO when when needs to.) Let your girls say NO to you, let them give you barriers that you should not cross; whether it's decisions about their wardrobe, or what sort of makeup they're attempting (gods save us from blue eyeshadow), their ability to dominate and takeover the bathroom and the phone...whatever; pick an unimportant battle and let them win it.

They don't need to be protected; they need to feel safe in themselves, and learn the power that comes from being an actualized human responsible for making their own decisions. You can do that. You can give them that power. But it means you have to lay down the mantle of Protector of Virginity, and pick up the mantle of Defender of Agency. Also, enroll them in Krav Maga, so they have the tools to eliminate any physical threat from someone who doesn't understand the word "NO".

trichy wrote:

I'm new at this parenting thing, and I live in constant fear that I'm going to f*ck it up...

You only f*ck it up if you quit trying to do it.

Don't treat that as advice. It's flowing upstream. My kids are younger than yours. It's just my outlook.

Our society needs to re-evaluate what success, old, used up, spoiled, perfect.... mean.

duckideva wrote:
trichy wrote:

... So when Emily came up to me and told me that she had her first kiss, all those emotions roiled up in my head. I was scared, nervous, confused, and worried. But I took a breath, set my own issues aside, and told her I was happy for her. I told her that Dillon sounds like a good guy, and I'm glad that he's making her happy. I told her that if they wanted to go to the movies tonight, I would take them, and I would sit in the back of the theater so they could have a little privacy. I said all that, and I do mean it.

But see; that's how you do it. That is the right response. Go you.

I see this thread as a way to vent those initial feelings, so it's going to come off really unbalanced.

SixteenBlue wrote:
duckideva wrote:
trichy wrote:

... So when Emily came up to me and told me that she had her first kiss, all those emotions roiled up in my head. I was scared, nervous, confused, and worried. But I took a breath, set my own issues aside, and told her I was happy for her. I told her that Dillon sounds like a good guy, and I'm glad that he's making her happy. I told her that if they wanted to go to the movies tonight, I would take them, and I would sit in the back of the theater so they could have a little privacy. I said all that, and I do mean it.

But see; that's how you do it. That is the right response. Go you.

I see this thread as a way to vent those initial feelings, so it's going to come off really unbalanced.

This. I'd rather act like a maniac Neanderthal pounding the ground around my full length hoop gown-wearing daughter here, and like a decent dad with Emily. I vent here so I can be calmer with her.

duckideva wrote:

As an aside; date rape is a serious issue; and most girls I know/knew who weren't physically coerced, but were emotionally coerced to have sex when they didn't want to, came from super protective fathers who had never let those girls develop the ability to say NO to a man.

No is one of the most powerful weapons. (It doesn't hurt to have some serious physical training so one can enforce NO when when needs to.) Let your girls say NO to you, let them give you barriers that you should not cross; whether it's decisions about their wardrobe, or what sort of makeup they're attempting (gods save us from blue eyeshadow), their ability to dominate and takeover the bathroom and the phone...whatever; pick an unimportant battle and let them win it.

They don't need to be protected; they need to feel safe in themselves, and learn the power that comes from being an actualized human responsible for making their own decisions. You can do that. You can give them that power. But it means you have to lay down the mantle of Protector of Virginity, and pick up the mantle of Defender of Agency. Also, enroll them in Krav Maga, so they have the tools to eliminate any physical threat from someone who doesn't understand the word "NO".

Jen (their mom/my fiancee) is a firm believer in the NO aspect. She guarantees their privacy, and has made sure the girls understand that there are things in their life that are their decision (makeup for Emily, the design and layout of their room, the privacy of their phone, etc.). At first I didn't understand, but I do realize that giving them the opportunity to make decisions and take control over aspects of their lives helps get them to the point where they can do that in more drastic situations.

trichy wrote:

... I told her that if they wanted to go to the movies tonight, I would take them, and I would sit in the back of the theater so they could have a little privacy. ...

Clever Machiavelli.
Privacy would be them sitting at the back, and you sitting at the front.
You've created the illusion of privacy. Go You.

Ooops. That was Neanderthal man-dad me speaking.

One thing I think needs to be pointed out here is a distance between "feel/think" and "do/say". Trichy, from my perspective, you did good. You let the lizard rage inside, but handled things on the outside with aplomb.

But this is where it gets difficult. You've got more work to do, and it sounds like everyone else here needs to take a knee here, too.

One question I have - have you and your wife discussed limits or how you want to approach supporting this growth with birth control/education/structure of any kind? You don't have to just cave in and let the chips fall where they may. You and your wife need to come up with your family's approach, then sit down with the girls and discuss it so everyone is on the same page. Take their input, and work this all out together. There, you can calmly and graciously express your lizard-brain, and listen to the responses from their immature-princess-brains and maybe your wife wants to trot out a little MomZilla of her own. You all work together to set up resources, boundaries, and consequences -- NOT PUNISHMENTS. This needs to happen before there are many more chances to break those rules before they're set. And this conversation is not going to happen just once. Things will change as they get closer to graduation and grown-up and you're gonna have to have a system that changes with them. It does not matter so much what your family chooses as boundaries - what matters is that they're shared between all of you so you call can work to keep them.

You said you would do this movie, and I would follow through on that. But next time I, personally, would not be sitting at the back of the theater. Maybe a couple rows back, or a few seats over. Not because I necessarily thought they were going to try to make the ground-bound equivalent of the Mile High Club, per se. But I never cloaked my participation in their lives as chaperonage. I hung out with their boyfriends/girlfriends in my own right.

Another thing that's falling through the cracks here is perspective. No one's wrong or right in this mess. Everyone's viewpoint has to be addressed.

Trichy's lizard-brain is valid. Maybe I'm weird because I was both parents to my kids when they were that age, but I spent more time than I care to think about wanting to use something like Galactic Punt on a rogue's gallery of punks and bimbos-in-training of all ages and genders. Trichy's desire to be a good parent is valid, and sometimes that means putting the hammer down. His wife's inevitable eyerolls are also a valid reaction, and her viewpoint on this needs to be brought in. Again, just keep the feel/think part behind the do/say part.

Emily and Hannah and their need to grow up in ways that help them be comfortable with their entire body and mind is valid. Ducki's got that right.

Another thing that needs to be thought about here is Dillon's growth. His pants-feelings and any other kinds of feelings are also valid. They're not going away no matter how much lizard-brain gets inflicted on him. He needs to be taught the limits, and helped to understand how to manage them just as badly as Emily does.

And not just for Emily's sake, but for his own. As annoying as it is, he has every right to be the little bag of testosterone that God/Nature/FSM has made him. You're not his family, but you can help him by engaging him in a similar manner. Talk to the boy. Learn something about him. Help him understand your concerns, so you two can work together to make Emily happy. Just focus on keeping communication real, and keeping everyone within the agreed-on boundaries. Basically, treat the bag of testosterone part with the respect due any larval human, and help him avoid the stupid.

I know you don't want to think about this now, but you are going to HAVE to have this skill of making friends with boyfriends (and the skill of letting them phase their way out of your life when Emily breaks up with them). One day, it is entirely possible that one of those "boyfriends" will turn into a "fiance". At some point after that, he'll get wound up in a white-silk cocoon and after a flurry of cake-tastings and tulle he will emerge as a "son-in-law". Then you two are stuck with each other for the rest of your life. It would be nice if you had something to talk about at Thanksgiving dinner. I'm just sayin'.

They don't tell you that part when you take that cute little squishy-monkey home. That one day they're going to grow up and go out and choose another child for you. I like to think I have a pretty good relationship with my current official son-in-law, but he's not going to be alone for much longer. My eldest son asked me for advice on saving for a ring this week, and my elder daughter's boyfriend has asked me for permission to propose to her on New Year's.

momgamer wrote:

Unadulterated parenting brilliance.

I hear what you're saying, and I can say that Jen and I have discussed how to deal with a lot of those issues. It's not an easy topic, but it's one that we are coming up with a plan to deal with before it becomes a problem, rather than afterwards. I don't want to be the parent that puts their kid on birth control because they've started having sex. Rather, I'd prefer to know that if Emily does start having sex (and yes, I died a little inside typing that. Unevolved? Maybe. Honest? Holy f*ckweasels yes), she's protected already.

I don't know if being new to the role makes this easier or harder. On the one hand, Emily seems to be more willing to talk with me openly because I came into her life when she was a bit older. I think it would be harder to discuss boys and birth control with a man who changed your diapers. On the other hand, there's a very real part of me that wants to stomp my feet and proclaim that it isn't fair, that I only got the sweet, nonhormonal Emily for a year.

duckideva wrote:

Y'all are talking like prehistoric neanderthals who seem to think women are property and need to be protected from other encroaching males.

Well duh.

I understand, respect, and agree with what you're saying, but I think you're picking at this specifically as opposed to, say, the worry of a child getting hurt climbing a tree or going camping or yatta yatta. A parent's natural instinct is to be protective of their child, and sometimes those instincts go overboard. This issue is no different.

I can also say I've felt the over-protection from my own mother, who told me she almost freaked out when she saw a lady friend of mine from College hug me, and has told me she doesn't want me to find a woman or anything of the sort because I'm "hers". The implications sound worse than they actually are when I type it, but I only make the point that the door can, in fact, swing both ways.

My mom doesn't want me having sex, period. The only difference is she hasn't had much to worry about due to my own failures at dating, most of which are a result of, yes, bad parenting.

To me, and it has already been said, this thread was created seeking advice, and in the end Trichy has actually handled things better because of the advice he has received. It has also been a good model for those that have daughters and now they can think of this when their daughters are old enough to be dating.

But we're GWJers. We also joke around. I myself should be taken with a grain of salt since I don't have kids. When my niece reaches dating age I won't be living with her and my relationship will be very different, so even though these protective instincts are also in me, the situation and what I have to deal will not be the same. In fact, it's easier for me to joke because I'm the Uncle, not the parent. What I say has no bearing on the child, but her relationship with her mother will be.

If you go through the serious advice, I don't think you'll find anyone saying "Don't trust or respect her". I don't think you'll find anyone seriously suggesting the opposite, either.

Despite what I said, I actually think Trichy did a very good job listening to how happy his daughter was and not being overprotective about it. Everything you said about trust is key, and I think he has been an example to us all.

EDIT: Momgamer you are awesome in your wisdom. And I mean that in the actual "awe" sense.

trichy wrote:

This. I'd rather act like a maniac Neanderthal pounding the ground around my full length hoop gown-wearing daughter here, and like a decent dad with Emily. I vent here so I can be calmer with her.

Which I kind of figured was the point of the thread, right? To vent and then have a little laugh at the stress of raising a child that can make his or her own decisions.

trichy wrote:
momgamer wrote:

Unadulterated parenting brilliance.

I hear what you're saying, and I can say that Jen and I have discussed how to deal with a lot of those issues. It's not an easy topic, but it's one that we are coming up with a plan to deal with before it becomes a problem, rather than afterwards. I don't want to be the parent that puts their kid on birth control because they've started having sex. Rather, I'd prefer to know that if Emily does start having sex (and yes, I died a little inside typing that. Unevolved? Maybe. Honest? Holy f*ckweasels yes), she's protected already.

I don't know if being new to the role makes this easier or harder. On the one hand, Emily seems to be more willing to talk with me openly because I came into her life when she was a bit older. I think it would be harder to discuss boys and birth control with a man who changed your diapers. On the other hand, there's a very real part of me that wants to stomp my feet and proclaim that it isn't fair, that I only got the sweet, nonhormonal Emily for a year.

First off - you would have been hosed in the hormone department starting at about age 8, actually. That's when underlying changes start. Mother Nature spends those years setting up the Properties sheet and then hits the "Apply" button when it's time for her monthlies/oogaba to arrive.

And it is not an easy topic. It honestly never will be. But it's incredibly important and I'm glad to hear you guys are working on it. Don't think of the birth control as just an automatic thing, or even an endorsement of behavior. The stakes on this behavior are real, and they are real high. She needs to learn treat even the possibility of it with the importance commensurate with it's awesome power to help, hinder, and create a life, and do it responsibly. And yes, that means she needs to take control of it by using good sense, No!, self-defense classes, and contraception.

I will also say I am the person who sewed little pockets with condoms in them into my then 17-year-old daughter's bras when she was dating her now husband. I didn't do it to be a tyrant; it was to help her (and him) understand they needed to take this seriously. I don't know if it was the best answer or not, but she doesn't hate me for it and he laughs. They will have been married 3 years on December 5th, and they're just now starting to talk about the possibility of having children.

It's not perfect. My younger son was in Special Ed growing up, and they don't date cheerleaders. If you live in the same town, that carries into adult life. He's why we have "Rule 2" in my house - don't go with the crazy. It's a running joke, but it's also household shorthand to remind them of all the times we did discuss these things as he was growing, the consequences of the many times he's broken it, and that he should keep them in mind when he's out on the town. While he was growing up we had one pregnancy scare, one girl who tried to foist someone else's child on him, and my very cute 2 year old grandson with someone else he's not with anymore.

In case you're wondering, "Rule 1" is "Don't do stupid things!" in the context of many adventures like throwing spent fireworks in a fire to see what they do or filling an inflatable monkey with acetylene, floating it downriver and then igniting it by hitting it with a Roman Candle round. No one wonders why I have gray hair after they've met my kids, for some reason.

momgamer wrote:

filling an inflatable monkey with acetylene, floating it downriver and then igniting it by hitting it with a Roman Candle round.

Hmmmm, intriguing.