The Playstation Vita Catch-All

DSGamer wrote:

In my opinion, other than the GameBoy games, the only games worth playing on the 3DS are Super Mario 3D Land and Pushmo. So no, the 3DS isn't strong either.

It's just that literally I can play a better version (especially with Lumines) of almost every Sony game you just mentioned on my PSP right now.

How are you determining relative quality of games that aren't released yet?

ahrezmendi wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

In my opinion, other than the GameBoy games, the only games worth playing on the 3DS are Super Mario 3D Land and Pushmo. So no, the 3DS isn't strong either.

It's just that literally I can play a better version (especially with Lumines) of almost every Sony game you just mentioned on my PSP right now.

How are you determining relative quality of games that aren't released yet?

Based on the fact I don't see myself preferring any version of those games over what I have. That's partly because I don't care much for LBP or Super Stardust. I thought they were okay on PS3. I thought they were fine on PSP. I don't need to play them again.

Otherwise it's based on the fact that I've actively disliked every version of Lumines except the original. The original was magical. I don't see lightning striking twice.

Katamari I could totally love. I prefer We Love Katamari to the original and I really like Katamari Forever. So with other games out there it's entirely possible I will like them. But it would take fundamental changes to the games you listed for me to care.

OK, that's not the same as saying the PSP versions are better than the Vita versions, but I see your take on it now. That would cool me on a system too, the difference is that I've missed every previous version of Lumines, and the only reason I don't play more Stardust on PS3 is that it's exactly the kind of game I prefer in a portable format. Katamari I'm not sure why I skipped on PSP, but now I don't regret it.

Imbarkus wrote:

As a collector, I have serious concerns at how even titles from just the previous generation of a console are being commoditized into a double-dip if you want to play them on the newest console. Nintendo, for all its failings, has at least been exceedingly fair-minded about making a new console backwards compatible with the previous generation.

So, I guess you're looking forward to being able to play all your Virtual Console purchases on WiiU? Oh wait...

Mr GT Chris wrote:

So, I guess you're looking forward to being able to play all your Virtual Console purchases on WiiU? Oh wait...

I can dig it, man. I have bought a few, and I use the term loosely because it's becoming clear to me that any access I have to these digital goods is at best a rental at best. But THAT'S why I don't trust Sony either, for pushing their digital platform with their Ridiculous PSP Go, and supporting only that platform for Vita backwards compatibility.

I mean, it would almost be better if they were going to do that to just make it a download-only platform. But they don't have the balls to screw with GameStop. They only have the balls to screw with the little guy, you and me.

Beside, look at it. Isn't it pretty? Man, I got some photoshop skills.

IMAGE(http://www.imbarkus.com/images/playstation_vita_w_psptoo.jpg)

Mr GT Chris wrote:
Imbarkus wrote:

As a collector, I have serious concerns at how even titles from just the previous generation of a console are being commoditized into a double-dip if you want to play them on the newest console. Nintendo, for all its failings, has at least been exceedingly fair-minded about making a new console backwards compatible with the previous generation.

So, I guess you're looking forward to being able to play all your Virtual Console purchases on WiiU? Oh wait...

I'd put money on it.

Imbarkus wrote:
Mr GT Chris wrote:

So, I guess you're looking forward to being able to play all your Virtual Console purchases on WiiU? Oh wait...

I can dig it, man. I have bought a few, and I use the term loosely because it's becoming clear to me that any access I have to these digital goods is at best a rental at best. But THAT'S why I don't trust Sony either, for pushing their digital platform with their Ridiculous PSP Go, and supporting only that platform for Vita backwards compatibility.

Even before the PSP Go was released it became clear that digital was the way Sony was going with their handhelds. There are still a couple of annoying omissions on the PSN store such as Crisis Core but, generally, almost every PSP game is available there. I've been all digital on PSP for a couple of years now. The only somewhat recent UMD I've bought was Persona 3: Portable and that was because I could get the disc for $5 cheaper. In hindsight, I should have just paid the extra money for the digital copy.

Anyway, I have 9 UMD games and 13 games digitally. Out of the UMD games there are probably only 1-2 that I regret not having digital access to. I also have some PS1 games that I bought on PSN. It's a good feeling to know that I can buy a Vita, plug it into my PS3, and just dump all that content on there (PS1 compatibility coming presumably). Folks who sold their Wii would know that any digital content they owned on that Wii is now gone regardless of whether they buy another Wii or WiiU. I gather Nintendo is introducing online user profiles with the WiiU so hopefully that situation will change.

The biggest one missing in my opinion is Lumines. It's crazy to me that the tentpole game for the original launch can't be purchased over PSN.

DSGamer wrote:

The biggest one missing in my opinion is Lumines. It's crazy to me that the tentpole game for the original launch can't be purchased over PSN.

Yes, James Mielki talked about it on 8-4 Play podcast. Basically, there are all sorts of messy rights negotiation involved in making it available digitally. Damn shame. Hope the Vita version is great.

DSGamer wrote:

The biggest one missing in my opinion is Lumines. It's crazy to me that the tentpole game for the original launch can't be purchased over PSN.

Seeing as how even the latest official firmware has been busted wide open, to the point that you can get "light custom firmware" onto any PSP in minutes, that's only a limitation until you make a backup of your own UMD (which is probably still a gray area, but as long as you keep the UMD...).

DSGamer wrote:
cyrax wrote:
Blind_Evil wrote:

I think a sharp price cut is more realistic than you think. The Vita has been outsold for a solid month in Japan by...the PSP.

Yeah, and there are many factors in play that Sony doesn't have control over, mainly the latest Monster Hunter releasing on 3DS around Vita's Japanese launch. Besides, you might as well say that Vita hasn't had success on Mars yet, relating to how success in Japan doesn't mean much for the rest of the world.

It's funny how both this thread and the 3DS thread are completely impervious to the possibility that there might be danger ahead for their handheld of choice. Weird.

I think your last comment, while cute and flip, couldn't be more wrong. Japan isn't Mars, Japan is one of their best markets (can't remember if Europe is better). It's home field or at least neutral field.

I think it's funny that you automatically assume that because we touch on the points of handheld gaming is not as dead as some people want us to believe that you don't think fans of either system knows there's a chance to fail, of course there's a chance the Vita might bomb but I think there's just as much chance that it might do better than anyone thinks it will, I stood by the fact that the reason the 3DS almost failed is it was extremely overpriced with very little in compelling software for a long time and the thing that saved the system from certain disaster is the price drop than both mario and mario kart coming out. I play IOS games as well and buy a decent amount of titles but if I have a choice between a gaming handheld or IOS gaming, IOS gaming will lose out every single time, I've seen some games that I really like on IOS devices but for the most part it doesn't offer the compelling experiences of a dedicated gaming handheld.

The issue is, it seems like it is just the old school gamers that buy into the idea that they have to make time for gaming.

The next gen does not have that history with handhelds, so they have less motivation to latch on to a device that is insanely less portable than their iPods and smartphones. My daughter likes games with deeper gameplay. That's why she plays Fable and is an Assassin's Creed fanatic. But when she is at a school, waiting to get picked up, she doesn't need a deeper gaming experience.

I am seeing this in her and her friends, and I see it repeated by tons of others with exposure to pre-teen and teen kids. Sony and Nintendo are losing that generation to iOS. And that leads to a trend no one wants to see.

We'll see. If Nintendo ever releases a proper Pokemon game, and my daughter craves a 3DS to play it, I will change my mind. But I am doubting it. A year ago I would not have.

Kinda depends how much she likes Pokemon. I am friggin' 27 years old now and still devoutly buy and devour the main-line series without a second thought. They got me when I was...12?

I agree. And she loves Pokemon immensely. She first got into it on the GBA, and then begged her way into the old GB Color games. Now she has the DS versions. She's 14. I think Pokemon is a good test. It should drag her back.

Gamestop has demo units in their stores. That is one sexy piece of hardware.

For my part, it's not that I think there's no chance of the Vita failing, it's that I see no point in discussing that. Where's the fun in talking all doom and gloom about a system that I want to be excited about because it has some really fun looking games? That's just self-defeating.

Ha, the thought of the Vita failing just made me realize that my favorite console of all time, the Dreamcast, was a failure. Sure it got Sega out of debt, but it was discontinued in less than 2 years, and sold barely over 10 million units. Yet it had one of the best game lineups I've ever seen, and some of the games on it are still the best versions of that game (Soul Calibur, Crazy Taxi, Power Stone). Would I bet upset if the same thing happened with the Vita? Hmm, I can't say "no" for sure, because I still have and still play my Dreamcast.

ahrezmendi wrote:

Would I bet upset if the same thing happened with the Vita? Hmm, I can't say "no" for sure, because I still have and still play my Dreamcast.

That makes you a weirdo. And I say that as huge Dreamcast fan, as it brought me back to console gaming.

The reason it is worth discussing is that there are people with a 3DS's that are looking at a large chunk of change missing from their pockets, and not a lot to play. If the Vita sells half as well, is it going to really be worth a day one investment to the averagegamer? Is that something worth discussing here?

ahrezmendi wrote:

For my part, it's not that I think there's no chance of the Vita failing, it's that I see no point in discussing that. Where's the fun in talking all doom and gloom about a system that I want to be excited about because it has some really fun looking games? That's just self-defeating.

This isn't Gamefaqs or 4Chan. I think we can be more nuanced than "it's a failure" or "it's going to be amazing and I'm pre-ordering".

Speaking only for myself my skepticism about the future of dedicated handhelds is actually more a worry that they won't sell well enough to get games like they have in the past. The PSP, DS and GBA had amazing libraries. Libraries strong enough that you could just play those systems and never really need a console attached to a TV depending on your preference.

So I like to talk about the state of the market partly because I find it interesting and partly because I hope it does well in spite of my pessimism. Why does it matter? It matters if you spend $250 on the Vita and no games you want ever get made for it. That matters. So that's worth discussing.

ahrezmendi wrote:

Ha, the thought of the Vita failing just made me realize that my favorite console of all time, the Dreamcast, was a failure.... Would I bet upset if the same thing happened with the Vita? Hmm, I can't say "no" for sure, because I still have and still play my Dreamcast.

Sure. As I've said time and again I fully plan on playing my PSP for the foreseeable future. I could be playing it for the next decade given how long it takes me to finish a JRPG or SRPG. But you can still be concerned that the next console may not have a future and thus may not be worth your money. Once again, we should be capable of having a nuanced discussion.

Jayhawker wrote:
ahrezmendi wrote:

Would I bet upset if the same thing happened with the Vita? Hmm, I can't say "no" for sure, because I still have and still play my Dreamcast.

That makes you a weirdo. And I say that as huge Dreamcast fan, as it brought me back to console gaming.

No, I would be weird if I desired the Vita failing so it would become the next Dreamcast. That is not what I said though, now is it?

DSGamer wrote:

Arguments for nuanced discussion

I didn't say we couldn't have a nuanced discussion, I simply stated why I prefer to focus on the positive rather than the negative.

Lothar wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
cyrax wrote:
Blind_Evil wrote:

I think a sharp price cut is more realistic than you think. The Vita has been outsold for a solid month in Japan by...the PSP.

Yeah, and there are many factors in play that Sony doesn't have control over, mainly the latest Monster Hunter releasing on 3DS around Vita's Japanese launch. Besides, you might as well say that Vita hasn't had success on Mars yet, relating to how success in Japan doesn't mean much for the rest of the world.

It's funny how both this thread and the 3DS thread are completely impervious to the possibility that there might be danger ahead for their handheld of choice. Weird.

I think your last comment, while cute and flip, couldn't be more wrong. Japan isn't Mars, Japan is one of their best markets (can't remember if Europe is better). It's home field or at least neutral field.

I think it's funny that you automatically assume that because we touch on the points of handheld gaming is not as dead as some people want us to believe that you don't think fans of either system knows there's a chance to fail, of course there's a chance the Vita might bomb but I think there's just as much chance that it might do better than anyone thinks it will,

That's not true. I imagine that most people on here have a more nuanced opinion of the handheld gaming landscape. But what I'm reading is a lot of defensiveness which I can't quite comprehend.

Lothar wrote:

I stood by the fact that the reason the 3DS almost failed is it was extremely overpriced with very little in compelling software for a long time and the thing that saved the system from certain disaster is the price drop than both mario and mario kart coming out. I play IOS games as well and buy a decent amount of titles but if I have a choice between a gaming handheld or IOS gaming, IOS gaming will lose out every single time, I've seen some games that I really like on IOS devices but for the most part it doesn't offer the compelling experiences of a dedicated gaming handheld.

Bolded the part that is basically what I'm saying. The Vita is overpriced to me and nothing interesting is coming out outside of Katamari. So the same thing is true for it. If this changes then I'll jump on it. I'm a gadget ho. But there's nothing I can't already do on the PSP.

ahrezmendi wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:
ahrezmendi wrote:

Would I bet upset if the same thing happened with the Vita? Hmm, I can't say "no" for sure, because I still have and still play my Dreamcast.

That makes you a weirdo. And I say that as huge Dreamcast fan, as it brought me back to console gaming.

No, I would be weird if I desired the Vita failing so it would become the next Dreamcast. That is not what I said though, now is it?

That's not what I was saying. You are a weirdo if you are still playing your Dreamcast. That's not a bad thing, but it automatically puts you in a crazy small demographic.

And it was meant in jest, even though I forgot the .

ahrezmendi wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

Arguments for nuanced discussion

I didn't say we couldn't have a nuanced discussion, I simply stated why I prefer to focus on the positive rather than the negative.

Is that your personal preference or the preference for everyone in this thread? That's the question. Because there is a vibe from some people that discussing the possibility of the Vita failing is dragging the thread down and that we should go away. GameGuru has already gone away. He's smarter than me.

DSGamer wrote:

GameGuru has already gone away. He's smarter than me.

That was the 3DS thread, I think.

DSGamer wrote:
ahrezmendi wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

Arguments for nuanced discussion

I didn't say we couldn't have a nuanced discussion, I simply stated why I prefer to focus on the positive rather than the negative.

Is that your personal preference or the preference for everyone in this thread? That's the question. Because there is a vibe from some people that discussing the possibility of the Vita failing is dragging the thread down and that we should go away. GameGuru has already gone away. He's smarter than me.

I don't mind when it's part of the conversation, but I do mind when it becomes the entire conversation. It wouldn't be the first time. I'm not saying that has happened yet, but let's be mindful. There are plenty of other threads to discuss portable gaming negatives in great detail.

DSGamer wrote:

Based on the fact I don't see myself preferring any version of those games over what I have.

This is where I'm at with the Vita as well. It is a very sexy machine, and I really want to own one, but the lackluster launch library (to me) isn't making this a day one purchase. I still have at least 20+ UMD games that I truly enjoy and can play without a Vita. If some of those IPs were available for the Vita at launch I would change my tune. It's entirely possible that the current Vita launch titles are top notch and will blow the doors off your hinges but I am not looking forward to them myself (though I should do myself a favor and go try a demo unit like some of you have).

EDIT: I wasn't bashing the Vita or trying to bring down the excitement for it's launch. I'm sure I'll own one someday soon, and if I somehow ended up with one at launch I wouldn't be disappointed, I'm just not in a rush to be a launch day owner.

Dyni wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
ahrezmendi wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

Arguments for nuanced discussion

I didn't say we couldn't have a nuanced discussion, I simply stated why I prefer to focus on the positive rather than the negative.

Is that your personal preference or the preference for everyone in this thread? That's the question. Because there is a vibe from some people that discussing the possibility of the Vita failing is dragging the thread down and that we should go away. GameGuru has already gone away. He's smarter than me.

I don't mind when it's part of the conversation, but I do mind when it becomes the entire conversation. It wouldn't be the first time. I'm not saying that has happened yet, but let's be mindful. There are plenty of other threads to discuss portable gaming negatives in great detail.

I'm being mindful. If I don't care about something I probably won't visit the thread. Right now where I'm at with the 3DS is I'm losing faith and pretty much done. So I'll likely walk away from that thread until the system gets a redesign. I still have hope for the Vita, so I'll be visiting this thread with discussion of all varieties. For not there is nothing to hold or see so it's all the business end of things and how it's doing in Japan, etc. Soon we can actually talk about the system itself.

Fyedaddy wrote:

EDIT: I wasn't bashing the Vita or trying to bring down the excitement for it's launch. I'm sure I'll own one someday soon, and if I somehow ended up with one at launch I wouldn't be disappointed, I'm just not in a rush to be a launch day owner.

Given my track record of gadget lust there's a high chance of me owning it within weeks of launch as well. If Katamari is amazing and PSP backwards compatibility is clean and easy and I can get all of my PSP saves easily transfered to the Vita all bets are off.

I'm happy with my purchase of the PSP. My first PSP died on me two days before my warranty expired. My current one has sat nearly unused since I stopped playing Monster Hunter Freedom 2. I don't need to have backwards compatibility for the Vita, especially if they end up having PSP, PS1, and PS2 games for Vita on PSN.

I am a little excited for the Vita, but I don't think handheld gaming is going where it needs to. I always felt that developers tended to try and make their games the same way they would for a console rather than making it for the handheld itself. With the Vita that probably won't matter since a developer can design a game with controls that play exactly like a console game.

If the Vita does get a lot of integration with PSN and the PS3 then I will very likely end up getting it.

I saw that Dragon's Crown was using cloud saves a while back, but I imagine that you need to buy the game for each system.

It would be awesome if every Vita game was available on PSN to play on PS3 and could also be played on your Vita. I imagine Sony would never do that though because they would probably feel that it would undercut the need for owning a Vita in the first place.

Gimpy_Butzke wrote:

I am a little excited for the Vita, but I don't think handheld gaming is going where it needs to. I always felt that developers tended to try and make their games the same way they would for a console rather than making it for the handheld itself.

This is actually part of why I kvetch about handheld gaming. I loved the GBA. Especially the SP. I still feel like that was more or less the perfect gaming portable. Super compact and played games that were well-suited to portable gaming. I would welcome a return to handheld gaming being the home of 2D and retro-style games.

Jayhawker wrote:
ahrezmendi wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:
ahrezmendi wrote:

Would I bet upset if the same thing happened with the Vita? Hmm, I can't say "no" for sure, because I still have and still play my Dreamcast.

That makes you a weirdo. And I say that as huge Dreamcast fan, as it brought me back to console gaming.

No, I would be weird if I desired the Vita failing so it would become the next Dreamcast. That is not what I said though, now is it?

That's not what I was saying. You are a weirdo if you are still playing your Dreamcast. That's not a bad thing, but it automatically puts you in a crazy small demographic.

And it was meant in jest, even though I forgot the .

Oh, ha, I gotcha now. Yes, I am weird, but weird in a totally awesome way, just like all of us in the "still play our dreamcast" club.

Re: Positive and negative discussions et. al -

This is absolutely a personal preference for me. I'm not trying to exclude anybody from any discussion, but I do remember there being some posts to the effect of "you're raining on our parade", so I understand the concern.

Disillusionment is powerful, and it's hard to keep up hope for one thing when everything else is not doing so well. What I'm trying to avoid, personally, is becoming negative without evidence of it being warranted. Since it has been argued as a positive, let's get nuanced:

GameGuru posted a link to Sony's Q3 results reports, saying that they were in even worse shape than Nintendo. The devil is in the details, Nintendo only manufactures and sells gaming products, while Sony manufactures and sells a humongous range of products, from LCD displays to gaming products and everything in between. Looking at the numbers, here's how things play out:

Nintendo expects an annual operating loss of $575 million US, and Sony expects an annual operating loss of $1.1 billion US from their Consumer Products & Services division (the division housing the PlayStation brand). If you read through the PDF, you'll find that $813 million of that loss is from equity loss in S-LCD shares, leaving only $300 million US in losses from other areas, including the PlayStation brand. Where Sony lost money on the PlayStation 3 hardware is included in deterioration of operating results, which includes restructuring charges ($13 million US), and expenses related to LCD panels and LCD television assets ($27 million US).

If we discount the $813 million US in losses due to investment losses, then Nintendo is looking at losing $575 million US, while Sony is only looking at losing $300 million US due to poor performance from gaming related products. All of this is further aggravated by the now stronger Yen, so both companies are seeing a drop in profits because a large portion of their revenue is losing value in the currency exchange.

What's my point in all this? Sony is not losing to Nintendo, regardless of what 3DS vs. Vita sales may appear to indicate. The Vita has gotten off to a rocky start, but then again so did the 3DS. The Vita is launching at the same price point as the 3DS did, but the Vita sports significantly better (and thus, more expensive) hardware. It also sports a much better launch library, at least for markets outside of Japan. Did the loss of Monster Hunter hurt Sony? Absolutely, but they're very likely working on getting something to replace it, and thus improve their numbers in the Japanese market. It's premature to think that the Vita is going to follow the same trend as the 3DS just because it showed a drop in sales in Japan after the first few weeks, that's a very weak signal for how the device will fare overall for the company.

DSGamer wrote:
Gimpy_Butzke wrote:

I am a little excited for the Vita, but I don't think handheld gaming is going where it needs to. I always felt that developers tended to try and make their games the same way they would for a console rather than making it for the handheld itself.

This is actually part of why I kvetch about handheld gaming. I loved the GBA. Especially the SP. I still feel like that was more or less the perfect gaming portable. Super compact and played games that were well-suited to portable gaming. I would welcome a return to handheld gaming being the home of 2D and retro-style games.

Does that not apply to the DS? It seems like the 3DS hasn't really picked up where the DS left of but I thought the DS had a ton of great games that understood what they were being developed on.