NBA Season 2011-2012

Blind_Evil wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
That's the kind of thing a GM that comes from the San Antonio family tree would do. :)

He's from the OKC organization, but your point still stands.

Cupboard's gonna be bare as hell on Orlando. My initial reaction is that they didn't get enough, but they have lost so much leverage. Dwight is now known to be effing nuts, has a bum back, and the other teams know they need to deal him. Big shame all around for that organization. They'll likely bounce back, but it could be an ugly half decade.

The OKC GM is from the Spurs. Like I said, the family tree.

B Dog wrote:
If this is accurate, then the Lakers are trading Andrew Bynum and a first-round pick for Dwight Howard. That's unbelievable.

Actually, given the Lakers' trade history, perhaps I should say, that's predictable.

Do you mean unbelievable in a bad or good way? Say what you will about Howard, but this is a steal for LA, I think.

DSGamer wrote:
Do you mean unbelievable in a bad or good way? Say what you will about Howard, but this is a steal for LA, I think.

I agree that it's a steal. I was being snarky.

The Lakers have a long history of acquiring big men without having to give up much of anything at all. See Wilt, Kareem, Pau and now, it appears, Dwight.

Without giving up anything at all? Bynum's the second best center in the league <,<

And the Gasol trade has been good for the Grizzlies, too.

To me, the remarkable thing is how little the Magic get back for their big men leaving. Shaq was a somewhat unexpected free agency departure. This trade, though, I dunno. Can't help but think they should have taken whatever they could get from Houston if it was still on the table.

Blind_Evil wrote:
Without giving up anything at all? Bynum's the second best center in the league <,<

And the Gasol trade has been good for the Grizzlies, too.

Bynum is nuts and has already had tons of injury problems.

Its a hijacking. At first I was like ok 3 picks maybe this makes sense.

Draft picks the Magic will receive are Nuggets (2014), 76ers (2015) and Lakers (2017).

They got away with 1 pick and its in 2017..... wow... and they are all lottery protected.

Blind_Evil wrote:
Without giving up anything at all? Bynum's the second best center in the league <,<

And the Gasol trade has been good for the Grizzlies, too.


OK, perhaps "not much of anything at all" is overstating it a bit in this case. But there have been a number of trades over the years involving the Lakers and big men that have been very, very favorable to the Lakers. I'm not saying it's a conspiracy or anything, just noting that it has become commonplace and, hence, predictable.

And while the Gasol trade has been good for the Grizzlies, it was seen as very lopsided the time. But your point is taken.

jowner wrote:
Blind_Evil wrote:
Without giving up anything at all? Bynum's the second best center in the league <,<

And the Gasol trade has been good for the Grizzlies, too.

Bynum is nuts and has already had tons of injury problems.

Its a hijacking. At first I was like ok 3 picks maybe this makes sense.

Draft picks the Magic will receive are Nuggets (2014), 76ers (2015) and Lakers (2017).

They got away with 1 pick and its in 2017..... wow... and they are all lottery protected.

Could say the same of Dwight. Back surgery is no joke, particularly for an athletic rim protector type.

It's an upgrade for the Lakers, but to act like Bynum has no value is crazy. I think 20 teams would trade their best player for him straight up without a second thought.

Blind_Evil wrote:
jowner wrote:
Blind_Evil wrote:
Without giving up anything at all? Bynum's the second best center in the league <,<

And the Gasol trade has been good for the Grizzlies, too.

Bynum is nuts and has already had tons of injury problems.

Its a hijacking. At first I was like ok 3 picks maybe this makes sense.

Draft picks the Magic will receive are Nuggets (2014), 76ers (2015) and Lakers (2017).

They got away with 1 pick and its in 2017..... wow... and they are all lottery protected.

Could say the same of Dwight. Back surgery is no joke, particularly for an athletic rim protector type.

It's an upgrade for the Lakers, but to act like Bynum has no value is crazy. I think 20 teams would trade their best player for him straight up without a second thought.

I'm not a huge fan of Bynum and I think going from him to Howard is a sizeable upgrade. Like honestly Orlando couldnt of just held them hostage and get some more picks? another 1 plus a 2 for currency. Theres not a chance LA balks at that because they know this makes them instant serious contender.

Other teams must be dumbfounded by the deals the Lakers seem to be able to pull off.

jowner wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of Bynum and I think going from him to Howard is a sizeable upgrade. Like honestly Orlando couldnt of just held them hostage and get some more picks? another 1 plus a 2 for currency. Theres not a chance LA balks at that because they know this makes them instant serious contender.

Other teams must be dumbfounded by the deals the Lakers seem to be able to pull off.

I think LA was a serious contender before the trade. Going from Sessions/Blake to Nash at point is a bigger upgrade than Bynum to Howard. LA doesn't have many picks to trade, really, and even those they do aren't worth much as they're all but guaranteed to be between 27-30 in the first round and 57-60 in the second round.

The trade makes a ton of sense for all teams involved except the Magic, and that should tell you something about the amount of leverage they had here. Their option was to sniff around for other deals, which they've been doing since last December (to no avail), or let Dwight walk via free agency after next year. That's not a good bargaining position, and you certainly can't hold anyone hostage from there.

Blind_Evil wrote:
It's an upgrade for the Lakers, but to act like Bynum has no value is crazy. I think 20 teams would trade their best player for him straight up without a second thought.

It's not that Bynum has no value, it's that most people expected the Lakers to give up a helluva lot more for Dwight Howard than what is being reported.

So the trade sums up as this:

Lakers
Give Up: Bynum & 1st
Acquire: Howard

Nuggets
Give Up: Harrington, Afflalo & 1st
Acquire: Iguodala

76ers
Give Up: Iguodala, Vucevic, Harkless, & 1st
Acquire: Bynum & Richardson

Magic
Give Up: Howard & Richardson
Acquire: Harrington, Afflalo, Vucevic, Harkless, & 3 1sts

Blind_Evil wrote:
jowner wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of Bynum and I think going from him to Howard is a sizeable upgrade. Like honestly Orlando couldnt of just held them hostage and get some more picks? another 1 plus a 2 for currency. Theres not a chance LA balks at that because they know this makes them instant serious contender.

Other teams must be dumbfounded by the deals the Lakers seem to be able to pull off.

I think LA was a serious contender before the trade. Going from Sessions/Blake to Nash at point is a bigger upgrade than Bynum to Howard. LA doesn't have many picks to trade, really, and even those they do aren't worth much as they're all but guaranteed to be between 27-30 in the first round and 57-60 in the second round.

Right so you figure Orlando could ask for more picks and LA would give them up. Anything more is better then nothing especially when its picks that cost you no money. Who knows what you might be able to do with them in the future to move up in a draft for example.

To put this into context the deals months ago being floated around involved Gasol and Bynum and people still thought that was an upgrade for the Lakers. Fast forward now and they are laughing.

Just read that Chris Duhon and Earl Clark may be headed to the Lakers as well. It either makes the salaries work or provides Orlando with more cap relief. Or both.

B Dog wrote:
Blind_Evil wrote:
It's an upgrade for the Lakers, but to act like Bynum has no value is crazy. I think 20 teams would trade their best player for him straight up without a second thought.

It's not that Bynum has no value, it's that most people expected the Lakers to give up a helluva lot more for Dwight Howard than what is being reported.

Trust me when I say I've read all the stories and I know all the things that people are complaining about.

I just wonder what more people expected them to give up. Orlando didn't want Gasol, and seemingly didn't want Bynum either (nuts and injury prone, as jowner points out). They have a pick in 2014 and 2016 to give up, but with a core of Kobe/Dwight/Nash/Pau, what kind of value are those picks? People say the Magic should hoard picks and rebuild like OKC, but OKC didn't build on picks in the late twenties, they built on a #2, #3, and #4 (Durant, Harden, Westbrook).

As I said earlier, this is not the course I'd have taken if I were Rob Hennigan, Orlando GM. I would have raided Houston's assembly of picks and young players. For whatever reason they decided this package worked better for them.

Blind_Evil wrote:
As I said earlier, this is not the course I'd have taken if I were Rob Hennigan, Orlando GM. I would have raided Houston's assembly of picks and young players. For whatever reason they decided this package worked better for them.

That we can agree on. I think the Houston deal was better for the Magic. There was always talk that the Orlando owner, Richard DeVos, who is 86, didn't want a rebuild. He wanted the team to remain competitive over the next few years, for obvious reasons. He's 86.

Anyway, they have appear to have changed their mind. They are going to be terrible for the next few years. But that's what you need to do in the NBA if you aren't going to be a playoff team. The worst position to be in is the team that finishes 9th in the conference.

First of all, Richardson has NEGATIVE value. Second of all, you can't look at the players given and received without including their contract status--that's either shortsighted or disingenuous.

Tweet from Beckley Mason, which I am kind of with him on:

1 player in his prime, 3 old stars that don't quite fit and a bunch of bad players...Anyone getting a whiff of Lakers 2004? *ducks* No? OK.

If there's one thing I know better than, it's conceding anything regarding the NBA in August.

And don't sleep on Vucevic! He can play!

The Lakers have a long history of acquiring big men without having to give up much of anything at all. See Wilt, Kareem, Pau and now, it appears, Dwight.

You forgot Shaq ;P

edit: hopefully since Nash pretty much instantly makes everyone more productive, Howard will be less prone to injury since he will have to bang down low less to score.

edit2: I am curious why Stern hasn't killed this yet...

fangblackbone wrote:
The Lakers have a long history of acquiring big men without having to give up much of anything at all. See Wilt, Kareem, Pau and now, it appears, Dwight.

You forgot Shaq ;P

edit: hopefully since Nash pretty much instantly makes everyone more productive, Howard will be less prone to injury since he will have to bang down low less to score.

edit2: I am curious why Stern hasn't killed this yet...

Shaq doesn't really count because that was just free agency. This likely won't be killed because the league doesn't own the Magic.

It's great to be a Laker fan. *ducks*

I'm thrilled with the trade. I love Gasol and it's been tough watching him struggle the last year and a half. Gasol, Nash, and Kobe all have to be giggling to themselves this morning when they saw the deal go down.

Bynum is really, really good, and he came up in the Laker organization, but...it's tough to put a finger on exactly what it is. Laker fans like Bynum, but he isn't beloved.

Blind_Evil wrote:
Tweet from Beckley Mason, which I am kind of with him on:

1 player in his prime, 3 old stars that don't quite fit and a bunch of bad players...Anyone getting a whiff of Lakers 2004? *ducks* No? OK.

If there's one thing I know better than, it's conceding anything regarding the NBA in August.

And don't sleep on Vucevic! He can play!

I was flashing back to 2004 with just the Nash trade. But if we make it back to the finals and have a real shot (barring injury to Karl Malone) then I'll be happy.

The scary thing about this is I see Howard playing a similar game to Lamar Odom when he was at his best working with Gasol. Lots of interior passing, defense, rebounds, dunks, etc. Except that Howard's way more physically gifted. Scary team.

And younger...

The 2004 Lakers dominated in the regular season, were very fun to watch and made it to the finals and then collapsed. I would take that over the results of the last 2 seasons any day.

LeapingGnome wrote:
In other news, if you haven't seen the Dream Team special on NBA TV yet, try to find it, it is a pretty decent little special about the dream team and is full of interviews with the players, just a nice watch and some stories I had not heard before.

I think they might be showing it, or at least a segment of it, on NBC right now, to open the Olympic coverage for Fri night. Been watching for 15 min so far. Great stuff.

EDIT: Well it was just 30 min. I think the real special was an hour?

But still it was awesome to see lots of interviews, old practice footage, and everything. It's been a long time.

Also, for what it's worth, I think what Howard did was far worse than "The Decision". That was just dumb and tone deaf. Howard got a coach and GM fired and ruined a franchise. My desire to see Nash win a title is far outweighed by my desire for Howard to never win a title. I hope they never make it past OKC or the Heat.

To back up my claim that Bynum-for-Howard isn't as huge the big upgrade, here's the PER (Player Efficiency Rating) for each guy involved in my point:

Andrew Bynum - 23.00
Dwight Howard - 24.29

That's a +1.29.

Ramon Sessions - 16.79
Steve Nash - 20.29

That's a +3.5. And I'm giving Sessions the benefit of the doubt, counting his whole season. He was not as good for the Lakers as he was the Cavs.

If you prefer achievements to stats, Nash never averages fewer than 10 assists per game (edit: 9.7 in '08-'09, 'scuse me), and has led the league five of the last eight years (11.4 to Rondo's 11.7 last year). Nash boasts consecutive MVP awards. He's one of five players in history to shoot 50 percent from the field, 40 percent from 3, and 90 percent from the line, and he's done it four times. Regarding age concerns, he shot 53% last year at 38, absolutely insane for a guard. He's in awesome shape and playing with this group will ease that up. Kobe can take on some of the ballhandling when he wants a breath, and his defensive porousness won't be so offensive with a quality rim protector like Bynum Howard.

Also, don't get me wrong. This trade is a no-brainer for the Lakers. And actually, after thinking about it for a day, I'm pretty excited about it. If the Heat and Lakers make it to the Finals next year it will likely be ****amazing**** basketball.

I love this.

Sacramento Kings center DeMarcus Cousins learned about the Dwight Howard to the Lakers trade on Thursday night, he processed it, and he responded the only way he knows how: by trolling hard.

He posted this.

IMAGE(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z144/Blind_Evil/Boogiegram_medium.png)

Also, for what it's worth, I think what Howard did was far worse than "The Decision". That was just dumb and tone deaf. Howard got a coach and GM fired and ruined a franchise. My desire to see Nash win a title is far outweighed by my desire for Howard to never win a title. I hope they never make it past OKC or the Heat.

Ya, I am not a fan of leaving and then making sure the place you left is in shambles on top of it. Lack of professionalism to the nth degree. I am surprised Stern doesn't at least start fining players who do this. This is far worse than complaining about refereeing.

The lasting effect of this is what worries me. Howard is going to be taking this baggage with him and it is the kind of distraction or karma that causes collapses during the playoffs or injuries. And in a lot of cases that karma smacks a teammate instead of the perpetrator. I don't like it.

So Howard, I know with your millions, Hollywood and the LA sunshine it will be difficult but please, man up, grow up or preferably both.

Eh, I can't blame Howard for Orlando's situation. He could have pulled a Shaq and not told them he was going to leave, and then they'd get nothing. The poor quality of their return on the trade is their own doing. They really, really should have taken one of the Rockets' packages. Christ, makes me mad thinking about it. I mean, you look at the other three places this has happened recently, and they all did well for themselves. Denver is arguably a better team since their haul for 'Melo. Utah got a lot of quality for Deron Williams (Derrick Favors, Enes Kanter, likely Golden State's pick this year). New Orleans got Eric Gordon and Austin Rivers, for starters.

Fascinating Grantland video here following Royce White leading up to draft day. Give it a watch.

One of the most interesting basketball podcasts I've ever heard: Dan Lebatard interviews Stan and Jeff Van Gundy. They go pretty deep and honest down the Dwight Howard rabbit hole. Highly recommended listening.